David Fincher's serial killer chat 'em up MINDHUNTER

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Zodiac: The Series?


Number None, Tuesday, 1 August 2017 18:50 (two years ago) link

I'm down.

Le Bateau Ivre, Tuesday, 1 August 2017 19:06 (two years ago) link

not familiar with much of the cast there except McCallany, who is pretty much always very good.

nomar, Tuesday, 1 August 2017 23:19 (two years ago) link

jesus god every time I think I'm at critical mass of shows to watch, Netflix just heaps another stack on top

Neanderthal, Tuesday, 1 August 2017 23:35 (two years ago) link

new fincher show means they're finally starting phase 2 of netflix shows

qualx, Wednesday, 2 August 2017 06:59 (two years ago) link

lol "already been renewed for season 2" is possibly the biggest pile of marketing bullshit ever

qualx, Wednesday, 2 August 2017 07:00 (two years ago) link

finally, a look at the psychology of a serial killer

the shape of a hot willie lumpkin (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 2 August 2017 08:57 (two years ago) link

This is apparently based on or heavily influenced by the Ressler and Douglas books, right?

Old Lynch's Sex Paragraph (Phil D.), Wednesday, 2 August 2017 14:12 (two years ago) link

yeah it's an official adaptation

Number None, Wednesday, 2 August 2017 14:34 (two years ago) link

but the characters are fictionalised I assume

Number None, Wednesday, 2 August 2017 14:34 (two years ago) link

It's like MANHUNTER but in the MIND

Eazy, Wednesday, 2 August 2017 14:36 (two years ago) link

I mean yeah the MIND OF A SERIAL KILLER stuff is sorta played out in the culture, but this isn't really that, or it is in a different kind of way. The beginning of real understanding of the pathologies that drove these guys, and the idea to interview the few in custody at the time, was extremely revolutionary in its day. I assume -- having read several books by both authors -- that that's what the series will concentrate on: the career risks and mental toll taken by these investigators by starting these projects.

Old Lynch's Sex Paragraph (Phil D.), Wednesday, 2 August 2017 14:37 (two years ago) link

I am a fan of Douglas (and of Douglas' mentor Robert Ressler who wrote Whoever Fights Monsters)

I actually met Douglas a few years back & got his autograph. He was pretty cool.

Looking forward to seeing this!!

Yoni Loves Chocha (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 2 August 2017 15:23 (two years ago) link

Jonathan Groff is gr8 too

Yoni Loves Chocha (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 2 August 2017 15:23 (two years ago) link

Wait this isn't parody?

blog haus aka the scene raver (wins), Wednesday, 2 August 2017 16:00 (two years ago) link


Yoni Loves Chocha (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 2 August 2017 16:29 (two years ago) link

lol that's a bold choice of title if this isn't a zany spoof of Thomas Harris

blog haus aka the scene raver (wins), Wednesday, 2 August 2017 16:31 (two years ago) link

It is based on the book Mind Hunter: Inside FBI’s Elite Serial Crime Unit written by Mark Olshaker and John E. Douglas

Old Lynch's Sex Paragraph (Phil D.), Wednesday, 2 August 2017 16:36 (two years ago) link

That clarification... does not affect the lol

it is still called MINDHUNTER

blog haus aka the scene raver (wins), Wednesday, 2 August 2017 16:42 (two years ago) link

I'm guessing this (not very good) British comedy is on nobody's radar


blog haus aka the scene raver (wins), Wednesday, 2 August 2017 16:43 (two years ago) link

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Harris never wrote anything called "Manhunter" anyway, Michael Mann did.

Old Lynch's Sex Paragraph (Phil D.), Wednesday, 2 August 2017 16:44 (two years ago) link

Harris's Jack Crawford character was partially based on Douglas, which is presumably why he semi-borrowed the title back off Mann for his book. It's a rich tapestry

Number None, Wednesday, 2 August 2017 17:27 (two years ago) link

two months pass...

Available on Netflix from today, really looking forward to this.

nate woolls, Friday, 13 October 2017 07:53 (one year ago) link

I'll reserve judgment until I finish the season but halfway in I will say Holt McCallany as Fred Ward is A+

Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Sunday, 15 October 2017 06:24 (one year ago) link

pvmic i just finshed binging the whole thing

omg so good


- I was skeptical that having Groff as Douglas’s substitute would mean Douglas would aggrandize himself & his achievements bc that’s the way he is, but he does not come off well by the end & i really like that, that really put it over the top for me

- the slow burn of neuroses between the three of them is fantastic, because a job like that cant not eat away at the very fabric of yr “self”

- casting of all the criminal subjects was incredible, and the actors were a+. from kemper to speck, not a bum note in any of them

- groff’s transition from ep 1 to ep 10, physically, emotionally, is SO good. anna torv is magical and i love her forever

love it

kinda want to watch it again? #saddo

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 15 October 2017 06:37 (one year ago) link

oh and holt mccallany was grizzled tv cop PERFECT

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 15 October 2017 06:38 (one year ago) link

3 eps to go here...

Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Sunday, 15 October 2017 06:41 (one year ago) link

Veg said everything I was gonna say. Really enjoyed the hell out of this. The lead actors and the guys playing all the killers are all excellent.

I’m not hugely fascinated by serial killers themselves but I love the detecting and psychology angle so this was squarely in my wheelhouse. It felt like Zodiac: the Series in a lot of ways.

The Marmadook (latebloomer), Sunday, 15 October 2017 07:52 (one year ago) link

Ha I obviously didn’t see the post st the top of the thread

The Marmadook (latebloomer), Sunday, 15 October 2017 07:58 (one year ago) link

oh and holt mccallany was grizzled tv cop PERFECT

I'm only 2 eps in but man is it nice to see McCallany again. Lights Out was a fine little series.

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Sunday, 15 October 2017 13:21 (one year ago) link

don't think i've seen Groff play hetero before

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 15 October 2017 13:32 (one year ago) link

that was a little weird at first, not gonna lie

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 15 October 2017 14:12 (one year ago) link

I've really hardened my heart against this because I'm not much of a fan of Fincher, serial killer fic and stuff where the FBI are the good guys. But I suspect from what I'm reading it will probably win me over and become a mucho guilty pleasure watch.

calzino, Sunday, 15 October 2017 14:35 (one year ago) link

how bloody/disturbing is this show

na (NA), Sunday, 15 October 2017 14:42 (one year ago) link

How violent/gory is this? The premise seems pretty bloodless, but are there reenactments or flashbacks or even just autopsies/ lots of photos?

ha xp

rob, Sunday, 15 October 2017 14:43 (one year ago) link

ha weird

na (NA), Sunday, 15 October 2017 14:45 (one year ago) link

basically I want to watch this (loved Zodiac) but my partner is an automatic no on serial killer shit, and I'm squeamish enough myself these days to not necessarily want to spend 10 hours marinating in murder naturalism.

rob, Sunday, 15 October 2017 14:47 (one year ago) link

99% of “gore” is crime scene photographs. there’s no dramatization of the murders themselves vis flashbacks or anything - the horrors are mostly communicated through conversation

there is one v shocking moment in ep1 that is quite gory but passes by v quickly

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 15 October 2017 15:14 (one year ago) link

It’s not very gory overall. There is a scene in the first episode with some brief gore but it’s not serial killer-related.

Apart from that it’s mostly just crime scene photos and graphic verbal descriptions of crimes.

*LOTS* of ookiness and creepy shit though.

The Marmadook (latebloomer), Sunday, 15 October 2017 15:16 (one year ago) link


The Marmadook (latebloomer), Sunday, 15 October 2017 15:16 (one year ago) link

yeah, and the crime scene photos are not lingered upon & are faintly colored or black & white
often by the time you realize what you are seeing it’s already off camera

def not for the faint hearted but nowhere near the gorefest you might expect

fincher himself has described the show as mainly being about conversations & that def bears out

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 15 October 2017 15:17 (one year ago) link

perfect, thanks!

rob, Sunday, 15 October 2017 15:34 (one year ago) link

One of my favorite bits was the looks Anna Torv kept shooting at Groff during their first meeting when he'd interject. Close up as he writes in notebook: "BOOK?"

nomar, Sunday, 15 October 2017 15:54 (one year ago) link

enjoying this so far but Brandy is otm here

Fincher: this is Debbie, she's a real human woman
Me: lmaoooo oh for sure man

— BranDIE Jensen (@BrandyLJensen) October 15, 2017

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Sunday, 15 October 2017 16:00 (one year ago) link

on put more simply Debbie is basically the Cool Girl from the Gone Girl rant

Otherwise this has been v enjoyable

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Sunday, 15 October 2017 16:04 (one year ago) link

*quickly crosses off “looking for my Debbie (watch Mindhunter!!)” from my dating profile*

mh, Sunday, 15 October 2017 16:33 (one year ago) link

great we've established that this drama contains fictional characters

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Sunday, 15 October 2017 21:56 (one year ago) link

idk man some characters resemble types of people you find out there in the world, some are more like narrative devices with legs

mh, Sunday, 15 October 2017 23:11 (one year ago) link

Debbie’s introductory scenes are silly maybe but she didn’t strike me as unrealistic past that?

ryan, Sunday, 15 October 2017 23:15 (one year ago) link

I've been re-watching Fringe so it's mildly amusing to see Anna Torv play a Boston-based FBI consultant. Am glad she's getting regular work again too.

I'm about two-thirds in and this is pretty good! And despite the dour subject matter, it's genuinely funny at points - that one killer who couldn't stop crying, the seat-switching scene in the airplane, Holt McCallany in general.

Roz, Monday, 16 October 2017 01:50 (one year ago) link

I was really shocked I hadn't heard of it! Then again I've only heard of Manson, Bundy... zodiac... That's about it.

kinder, Friday, 6 September 2019 13:39 (two weeks ago) link

I never heard of them! I’m not interested in serial killers, I always forget their names. I’m surprised tho I didn’t know about Atlanta seeing as I’ve.. read a lot of Baldwin and just missed that one.

flamboyant goon tie included, Friday, 6 September 2019 14:03 (two weeks ago) link

Or at least I was until I reflected on the fact that of COURSE one of America's most prolific serial killers wouldn't ever achieve the same notoriety/uniquity/cultural cachet as Bundy or BTK or the Night Stalker, because his victims were black children. Nearly all of the serial killers whose names the average person could recall instantly killed white women.

well, there is Dahmer.

Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Friday, 6 September 2019 15:28 (two weeks ago) link

I remember the Atlanta Murders from the news when I was a kid. Even at the time there was a lot of doubt that Williams was the only killer, but after he was arrested the killings stopped so the story just faded away.

Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Friday, 6 September 2019 15:30 (two weeks ago) link

because his victims were black children

the fact i had never heard of this evil worried me a lot, for exactly this reason.
but to be fair at the time i was more interested in what Suggs was up to as opposed to following stories re mass murders in USA.
that said, it's a story that definitely has not had the same profile as the rest of the USA 70s/80s evil f*ckers, and so, for that reason alone, watching S2 was a sad/dark revelation.

mark e, Friday, 6 September 2019 17:45 (two weeks ago) link

btw a year or two ago there was a podcast about the murders-- "The Atlanta Monster" with lots of interviews with Williams

Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Friday, 6 September 2019 17:56 (two weeks ago) link

regarding Paul Bateson btw:

Bateson ultimately served 24 years and 3 months of his sentence, becoming eligible for parole in 1997. On the day after his 63rd birthday, in August 2003, he was released from Arthur Kill Correctional Facility on Staten Island. According to online records kept by the state's Department of Corrections and Community Supervision, his parole was successfully completed in November 2008.[7]

That is the last public record of Bateson available as of 2019; where he is living, or even if he is alive, is not known. Miller attempted to contact Bateson for his Esquire article in 2018 at his last known address, in the Long Island village of Freeport, but was unsuccessful as the phone had been disconnected; emails to different addresses either bounced or were not answered.[5] In his podcast interview around the same time, Friedkin said he had heard Bateson was living somewhere in upstate New York.[1]

A record in the Social Security Death Index shows that a Paul F. Bateson, with the same birthdate and a Social Security number issued in Pennsylvania, died on September 15, 2012.[6]

omar little, Friday, 6 September 2019 18:00 (two weeks ago) link

I don't doubt that the lack of a profile for the Atlanta Child Murders is primarily due to the race of the victims, but on a lesser level it can also be hard to figure out why some serial killers become celebrities and others don't. I've never quite understood why some who killed a handful are household names and others who killed dozens are forgotten. Does it always come down to the nature of the victims?

Add to this that WW was charged with only two, maintains his innocence (and is believed by many in the affected community)...well the whole thing is left in a very unsatisfying and messy place (which was, of course, brilliantly exploited by the show).

ryan, Friday, 6 September 2019 19:39 (two weeks ago) link

I think it's often due to the nature of their crimes, how they engaged w/ the media, the personality of the killer, etc - people remember the guy who dressed up like a clown, the cannibal, the guys who wrote letters to the media and courted public attention

Mordy, Friday, 6 September 2019 19:59 (two weeks ago) link

i didn't know about ed kemper before this show tho i feel like maybe i should have

Mordy, Friday, 6 September 2019 20:00 (two weeks ago) link

it really does boil down to the serial killer fitting into a very specific role for public consumption. It's very easy to see why Ramirez, Manson, Bundy, Dahmer, BTK, Zodiac, Berkowitz, and Gacy had so much attention lavished upon them vs Ridgway or Kemper or the Golden State Killer or the Grim Sleeper. The latter group had some crimes that were horrific but they didn't have the same "hook" the others did in terms of personality or their communications w/media. Golden State Killer was mostly known as the other Night Stalker til recently, maybe the "original" Night Stalker if the media was being a bit more factual.

omar little, Friday, 6 September 2019 20:08 (two weeks ago) link

Atlanta was a case where the murder spree itself and the investigation were more famous than the murderer. The killings were all over the news, and it seemed to take forever to find the killer--and it was just like they caught some guy.

Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Friday, 6 September 2019 20:12 (two weeks ago) link

y'all are profiling the public now

ን (nabisco), Friday, 6 September 2019 20:34 (two weeks ago) link

the short version of what I was aiming for before: you do profile the public, to determine where they're not looking for the killer (or whether they're looking at all), often due to stereotypes and social/racial/class issues

that's where the depressing theory that there are a number of unrecognized serial killings, because society assumes certain classes of people just tend to get murdered or die tragically

I feel shittier just having typed that

untuned mass damper (mh), Friday, 6 September 2019 20:42 (two weeks ago) link

the closest comparison i can make with the Atlanta murders is the epidemic of murdered women in Juarez -- it's similar in that it took the numbers to reach a huge number before people started paying attention.

omar little, Friday, 6 September 2019 20:44 (two weeks ago) link

all the native american girls and women that have gone missing/ are being murdered too.

Yerac, Friday, 6 September 2019 20:46 (two weeks ago) link

and the Texas Killing Fields

ryan, Friday, 6 September 2019 21:43 (two weeks ago) link

and the prostitutes killed and buried on Long Island

*every Mindhunter episode*

HOLDEN: did you kill her?

KILLER: nope

HOLDEN: we heard your dick game was weaksauce

KILLER: I killed her and ate her arm for breakfast, yeah

— Michael Tannenbaum (@iamTannenbaum) September 8, 2019

lol otm

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 9 September 2019 19:54 (one week ago) link

blame everything ever, i mean csi in my mind was the *worst* for that type of formulaity (if a suspect actually denied it, it p much meant they would turn out to be innocent every time) but im sure every crime show ever has a similar setup

thin man movies obv best at it

theRZA the JZA and the NDB (darraghmac), Monday, 9 September 2019 23:33 (one week ago) link

csi was very little investigation -> conclusion and nearly all wrapped up in premise of the crime and the forensic process

it was always just the creepiest suspect

untuned mass damper (mh), Monday, 9 September 2019 23:48 (one week ago) link

nah it always had grissom ~ look in their eyes and know~ it was fun but dumb as fuck once youd seen a few of them

apart from the one where the busbhad crashed that was legit good

theRZA the JZA and the NDB (darraghmac), Tuesday, 10 September 2019 00:32 (one week ago) link

I think they did a good job casting the killers, they are so creepy

Dan S, Tuesday, 10 September 2019 01:13 (one week ago) link

in this show, not csi, fuck that

Dan S, Tuesday, 10 September 2019 01:19 (one week ago) link

*every Mindhunter episode*

HOLDEN: did you kill her?

KILLER: nope

HOLDEN: we heard your dick game was weaksauce

KILLER: I killed her and ate her arm for breakfast, yeah

This scenario doesn't play out at all in the second season except for maaaaybe the Berkowitz scene.

ryan, Tuesday, 10 September 2019 03:01 (one week ago) link

I've only seen two episodes of S2 so far, but that scenario is definitely a feature of the Berkowitz scene

I'm looking forward to seeing more of this, limiting myself to one episode a week because I'm watching it with a friend

Dan S, Tuesday, 10 September 2019 03:11 (one week ago) link

Finally finished S@, was great. The run of scenes at the end of the last episode -- Carr dumping the magazine, Tench in the empty house, Holden watching everything getting swept away, the BDK guy doing his thing and then the intensely creepy Peter Gabriel song over the credits: fucking hell.

And according to some websites, there were “sexcapades.” (James Morrison), Tuesday, 10 September 2019 03:12 (one week ago) link

thin man movies obv best at it

― theRZA the JZA and the NDB (darraghmac), Monday, September 9, 2019 7:33 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Now I'm trying to imagine this series with Nick and Nora Charles instead of Holden and Bill.

Martinis with Manson?

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Tuesday, 10 September 2019 13:14 (one week ago) link


But here’s a curious fact. As the number of serial killings has supposedly fallen, so too has the rate of murder cases solved—or “cleared,” in detective lingo. In 1965, the U.S. homicide clearance rate was 91 percent. By 2017, it had dropped to 61.6 percent, one of the lowest rates in the Western world. In other words, about 40 percent of the time, murderers get away with murder.

Some experts believe that serial killers are responsible for a significant number of these unsolved murders. Thomas Hargrove, the founder of the Murder Accountability Project, a nonprofit that compiles data on homicide, has examined how many unsolved murders are linked by DNA evidence. He believes that at least 2 percent of murders are committed by serial offenders—translating to about 2,100 unidentified serial killers. Michael Arntfield, a retired police detective and the author of 12 books on serial murder, agrees that the FBI’s projections are off (he blames patchy data, among other things) but thinks the number of active serial killers is more like 3,000 or 4,000.

j., Wednesday, 11 September 2019 02:14 (one week ago) link

you could fit all the serial killers in the US into a football stadium, so are they really that big of a threat?

Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Wednesday, 11 September 2019 13:57 (one week ago) link

depends on what you do with them after i guess

theRZA the JZA and the NDB (darraghmac), Wednesday, 11 September 2019 13:59 (one week ago) link

Are those stats taking into account the number/percentage of false convictions? It's easy to clear a murder if you arrest and convict someone who didn't do it. I've seen estimates that anywhere from 5-12% of murder convictions are wrongful, which is a lot!

I don't get wet because I am tall and thin and I am afraid of people (Eliza D.), Wednesday, 11 September 2019 14:19 (one week ago) link

lol darraghmac

But everyone in that stadium will kill multiple times, so that's, what, 6 stadiums of victims?

Tsar Bombadil (James Morrison), Thursday, 12 September 2019 00:38 (one week ago) link

turn it into the world’s biggest royal rumble & make them all kill each other

oh wah he’s not your “type” you cant kill “just anyone” cry me a river I SAID TO THE DEATH

Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 12 September 2019 03:26 (one week ago) link

I've been checking my bootleg place weekly, and they still don't have the second season in. I'm rewatching the first season for now. I think episode 8--a return interview with Brudos, the foot-tickling principal, and hiring a new transcriber--is one of the best episodes I can think of in any show ever. The writing--every line from start to finish--is masterful.

clemenza, Saturday, 14 September 2019 00:42 (six days ago) link

I knew that the song at the end of the seres was "Intruder" by PG but I'd nevr paid attention to its lyrics before, yike.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Saturday, 14 September 2019 03:50 (six days ago) link

Excellent use also of Marianne Faithfull's "Guilt" during the end credits of a recent episode. Made me re-visit Broken English.

henry s, Saturday, 14 September 2019 04:19 (six days ago) link

Gave up on a bootleg, signed up for Netflix (have to watch on my computer, but I'm adapting). Anyway, very solid for the first three episodes. Don't want to read the thread till I finish. Albert Jones reminds me of Tim Meadows--I keep waiting for jokes.

clemenza, Monday, 16 September 2019 02:51 (four days ago) link

Albert Jones is extremely good and--as a friend of mine pointed out--the smartest guy on the show. Focusing on the Fulton County house, making sure they have eyes on Williams' dad, clearly focused in a way that the others are not.

Ford and Tench being spot-on in some areas is par for the course but they're more commonly way offtm, which is partially due to them finding their way into this new form of crime analysis and also this type of crime being not nearly as predictable as they might think.

The car interview scene w/the brother of the early BTK victim is a total microcosm of the show in a nutshell in terms of just its sheer quality, its empathy, the probing and relevant questions, the local cop shocked by the methods, the understandably (based on their test subjects) inaccurate assessment of who BTK is, and the paranoid creepiness of someone being "out there" which is probably most valuable to this genre of crime story.

I think one strength of that entire storyline is in its banality, in its inaction, he's out there being very patient and controlled and cautious and aside from one error in judgment (first scene of the season) he seems to learn from his mistakes, biding his time, not in a desperate hurry for the next victim, but he's continuing to keep his buzz going, ready for the next murder when he gets the chance. This season is 1980-81, roughly, and BTK didn't kill again until 1985.

omar little, Monday, 16 September 2019 05:06 (four days ago) link

So serious question: presumably the child murders ended after they caught Williams? or did the rate of deaths just drop back to the Atlanta average?

Tsar Bombadil (James Morrison), Monday, 16 September 2019 05:22 (four days ago) link

i believe that to be the case, yes

Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Monday, 16 September 2019 16:40 (four days ago) link

back to average and, I presume, either solved or not the same circumstances or MO as the Atlanta Child Murders (as were some actually included as part of the case, such as the girl kidnapped from her home).

ryan, Monday, 16 September 2019 17:50 (four days ago) link

Just finished the Manson episode. (Or first, anyway--not sure if there's more.) Have to give it some thought. I liked the reversal with Tench and Holden at the party; Holden the clinical, by-the-book straight-arrow, Tench the rogue storyteller.

clemenza, Tuesday, 17 September 2019 23:53 (three days ago) link

Leslie Van Houten wasn't mentioned...must be because she's alive and still in prison.

clemenza, Tuesday, 17 September 2019 23:54 (three days ago) link

So is Tex Watson though

nate woolls, Wednesday, 18 September 2019 00:11 (two days ago) link

I wonder why they'd leave her out then. She participated in the LaBianca murders.

clemenza, Wednesday, 18 September 2019 04:34 (two days ago) link

Episode 6: the Paul Bateson story seemed a little thin? Doing a little reading on him--he was in The Exorcist!

clemenza, Wednesday, 18 September 2019 15:30 (two days ago) link

I was shockingly old when I learned clemenza has a bootleg place.

I don't get wet because I am tall and thin and I am afraid of people (Eliza D.), Wednesday, 18 September 2019 17:01 (two days ago) link

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