Damon Lindelof's Watchmen

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Yes, of course.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 03:37 (three years ago) link

Ugh, why.

I Love It When They Call Me Big Pharma (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 03:43 (three years ago) link

The film was great! The film was recent! Whyyyy

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 03:45 (three years ago) link

Because.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 03:48 (three years ago) link

I'm interested, hated the movie. This will actually be 10 hours long instead of just feeling like it is.

El Tuomasbot (milo z), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 03:51 (three years ago) link

I suppose everyones seeing the $$$ in current "golden age" TV so I suspect we're gonna see a lot more of this.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 03:58 (three years ago) link

Can't wait for the gritty retelling of Napoleon Dynamite.

Ⓓⓡ. (Johnny Fever), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 04:02 (three years ago) link

sorry everyone but Lindelof is good now

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 04:02 (three years ago) link

if this actually happens it will be 10x more interesting than the movie.

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 04:03 (three years ago) link

I just wish Noah Hawley would do everything ever.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 04:17 (three years ago) link

oh god no

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 04:18 (three years ago) link

Leftovers is so much better than any Hawley thing

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 04:19 (three years ago) link

sorry everyone but Lindelof is good now

Admittedly he had nowhere to go but up.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 04:20 (three years ago) link

Anyway I'm glad for this dark and gritty reboot of a...well no it's a dark and gritty reboot of the original comic which...never mind.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 04:21 (three years ago) link

Think shadowy and rough

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 04:24 (three years ago) link

also bear in mind this could just as easily go the way of the Paul Greengrass or Terry Gilliam versions

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 04:27 (three years ago) link

iirc for a long time the consensus on the comic was that it was unfilmable before zack snyder proved that was indeed true

a longer adaptation isn't the answer because a big part of what makes the comic special is that the content is inextricably bound up with the form. any attempt to translate it outside of a comic-book will inevitably be unable to include the way moore and gibbons constantly play with time, both as a story theme and in the design and layout of the pages themselves

part of the magic of the book is that it literally allows readers to experience doctor manhattan's unique perspective on time for themselves - all you need to do to see the past or the future exactly like he does is flip back and forth in the book

and the fact that the first panel and the last panel mirror each other perfectly make the story a perfect closed loop, so readers will only ever see as much as doctor manhattan will (admittedly dc's bloodyminded insistence on creating more watchmen material kinda makes a mockery of this but, as ever, fuck dc)

you can't do any of that in anything other than comic books. all you're left with to adapt a whodunnit set in a world of gritty, 'realistic' superheroes, which is a trope that has long since been beaten into the ground in both comics and films, so why fucking bother at all

total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 09:19 (three years ago) link

signed, butthurt in glasgow

total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 09:19 (three years ago) link

Pls to make a Watchmen tv show in style of adam west batman

The Adventures Of Whiteman (Bananaman Begins), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 09:35 (three years ago) link

Watchmen is the best superhero movie fyi

Lindelof is a cheap cunt

quet inn tarnation (darraghmac), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 09:37 (three years ago) link

tbh if they must do a watchmen tv show i'd prefer they did something like that with it rather than a slavish adaptation of something which is custom-built to resist slavish moving-image adaptations

total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 09:37 (three years ago) link

Watchmen is the best superhero movie fyi

you're aff yer chump

Lindelof is a cheap cunt

this is otm tho

total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 09:38 (three years ago) link

I was tentative at first, but then I remembered that every previous Moore adaptation has been an unmitigated success, and when coupled with Lindelof's unblemished record, why, I don't see how this could possibly go wrong. I think we're in for a treat, folks.

I Love It When They Call Me Big Pharma (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 10:20 (three years ago) link

I would again remind Lindelof-bashers that his last project *was* basically an unmitigated success.

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 10:29 (three years ago) link

what better way to spend that newly-earned goodwill than on a quixotic effort to re-film the recently filmed, which proved the source material unfilmable

total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 10:33 (three years ago) link

Would be very surprised if this actually happened, sounds like typical rumour nonsense

Otherwise, seems like the definition of a pointless project

Halo Jones, on the other hand

Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 10:38 (three years ago) link

it's only unfilmable if you decide to be slavish about it to appease comics nerds. he literally just proved he can take high concept source material and expand it for TV productively

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 11:29 (three years ago) link

I mean snark all you want but it's pretty clear to me from interviews and his recent work (as well as his willingness to, for example, help guide Micheal Schur in planning for disaster when he was mounting The Good Place) that unlike a lot of other pissy creatives he actually recognizes and learns from mistakes

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 11:33 (three years ago) link

i'd be snarky about another adaptation of watchmen no matter who was behind it!

as i said, slavish fidelity to the source material or otherwise isn't the issue - the issue is that watchmen's content and form are so vitally interlinked that presenting it as anything other than a comic-book is going to miss much of what made it special in the first place, and all you're left with is some folks in costumes trying to solve a murder

total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 11:38 (three years ago) link

and a blue penis

total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 11:41 (three years ago) link

I think there are ppl who could find cinematic analogues to the way that Watchmen treats time (hello, Nic Roeg!), not sure that a guy w/ a scripting credit on Prometheus would have been my pick tho.

Robert Altman's Watchmen would've ruled.

Bernie Lugg (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 11:42 (three years ago) link

I now feel a lot less bothered about darraghmac hating GotG 2

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 12:07 (three years ago) link

bizarro otm. There are certain works which are so inextricably tied to their native form that adapting them to another medium is a fool's errand. Doubly so when the attempt has already been made in the past decade.

I Love It When They Call Me Big Pharma (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 12:16 (three years ago) link

XP you went off on one when I let you know that hellboy was total crap, I think we have a pretty good idea about our respective positions on comic adaptations at this stage tbf

quet inn tarnation (darraghmac), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 12:32 (three years ago) link

guys maybe it is actually based on this and not the comic book
the titles are the same I'm just saying

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAadbwAtg9Y

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 12:33 (three years ago) link

Watch men? Don't mind if I do, ooh err

I Love It When They Call Me Big Pharma (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 12:35 (three years ago) link

Watchmeh

quet inn tarnation (darraghmac), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 12:36 (three years ago) link

not sure that a guy w/ a scripting credit on Prometheus would have been my pick tho.

Prometheus is bad but tbf he was brought in for a polish/rethink after Jon Spaihts wrote the original screenplay. it seems like it was poisoned from the get-go.

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:34 (three years ago) link

as for this project, I would be happy with a show that uses aspects of the characters/worls/mmythos but goes completely different directions with it, somewhere between Hannibal and Fargo levels of faithfulness. only not bad like Fargo is

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:35 (three years ago) link

serious question, no judgment: have you read watchmen?

total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:38 (three years ago) link

what everyone is deaf to here is that the badness is coming from inside the moore

mark s, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:39 (three years ago) link

lol yes I have read watchmen and seen the movie

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:40 (three years ago) link

okay, cool - just having some trouble wrapping my mind around the idea of enthusiasm for seeing the watchmen characters outside of the context of the comic book, especially since efforts so far to do so have been, um, largely poorly-received

total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:43 (three years ago) link

you might as well just commission a series starring the charlton heroes the watchmen are based on tbh

total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:45 (three years ago) link

mark don't think i don't see you trolling btw

total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:46 (three years ago) link

The series is going to be based on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDHHrt6l4w

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:47 (three years ago) link

as for this project, I would be happy with a show that uses aspects of the characters/worls/mmythos but goes completely different directions with it, somewhere between Hannibal and Fargo levels of faithfulness. only not bad like Fargo is

― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:35 AM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I would not be happy with this. I don't really see what additional material is left to mine from the original story (although that certainly hasn't stopped a number of parties from trying). There are stories which seem to just scratch the surface of a rich and varied world of the author's creation, but Watchmen doesn't strike me as that type of story.

I Love It When They Call Me Big Pharma (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:47 (three years ago) link

Like, Moore already pretty much laid out the varied richness and explored it to my satisfaction.

I Love It When They Call Me Big Pharma (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:49 (three years ago) link

yeah - like i said upthread, it's literally designed to be a closed-loop narrative, there's not much reason to flesh out what nite-owl's glory days were like or whatever

total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:50 (three years ago) link

to put it in more concrete terms, Leftovers proved that Lindelof has figured out (with the help of good collaborators) how to juggle character, plot and world-building in a really considered way that takes advantage of the form,instead of having it be a "10-hour movie" every season or whatever (one of the plagues of big HBO shows especially). It's really not that hard for me to imagine a worthwhile adaptation that uses the book strictly as a starting point to pluck ideas from.

to put it another way, it would not make fans/pedants happy but it could be a Pretty Good TV Show

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Wednesday, 21 June 2017 13:52 (three years ago) link

do you get Fox?

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Sunday, 13 September 2020 21:55 (one month ago) link

King's 'deep dive' into Ditko is really pretty shallow and as sic points out, this business about him trapping himself in his apartment for 30 years is anecdotally inaccurate - I know people who met Ditko up at the Marvel offices, even, where he was more than happy to chat (just not 'on the record'). Ditko's very late work is pretty eccentric by the standards of a DC Comics hack, but far from 'insane' when set against the real extremes of right-wing/libertarian thought (apparently Ditko actually enjoyed arguing politics with Gary Groth years after they'd had a falling out working on an anthology project together, and his political comics are largely free of conspiracy theories and paranoid persecution complexes - even with the last comics, you get the sense of a thinking mind, working through ideas on the page, although of course he was (like all of us!) convinced he was right about things). Easy to dismiss Ditko's iron-willed integrity and refusal to play the corporate comics game as a form of madness; easy to dismiss someone who didn't want to be interviewed and lived on his own as a loon or a fool.

Ward Fowler, Monday, 14 September 2020 08:59 (one month ago) link

it's also easy to dismiss that guy if you've read any of those later comics tbrr

Nhex, Monday, 14 September 2020 12:46 (one month ago) link

Big Emmy night

Scam Likely (morrisp), Monday, 21 September 2020 03:46 (one month ago) link

This is actually pretty cute

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CFe0sabAyMm/

Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 23 September 2020 20:43 (one month ago) link

alan will be loving that

despacito ergo sum (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 23 September 2020 20:53 (one month ago) link

three weeks pass...

"The first time I read Watchmen I was very young, maybe 13 years old. ...obviously Rorschach was the most charismatic character and everyone's favourite. I grew up in the '80s between Rambo and Bronson movies every week, so for me Rorschach was another hero fighting against crime."

Tom King says that Steve Ditko would hate his Rorschach and probably hate everything about Tom King's life, working as a field agent in the CIA and now writing comic books.

"Instead of it being from an Ayn Rand background, I transitioned it just to sort of respond, and I made him obsessed with Hannah Arendt, who is a different philosopher, Ayn Rand's contemporary, another Jewish immigrant from Germany, but on the left, not on the right, who was obsessed with the concept of citizenship," King explained. "She had been in a concentration camp, and how we as a free society stop another Nazi rising was sort of her obsession of her whole life. Instead of constructing Rorschach from a Randian point of view, if we construct him from an Arendt point of view, how does that change our conception of superheroes, and our conception of vigilantism? If we go from the idea of 'it's obviously bad to kill people without trials' to 'Is it bad to kill Nazis without trials?' it makes a different moral universe and (asks) different moral questions, or at least the same questions but, you know, turning the ball on its side so you can see it from a different angle."


Ayn Rand was Russian btw

Covidiots from UHF (sic), Saturday, 17 October 2020 05:01 (one week ago) link

I'm really no expert, but it seems like every single detail of that is wrong

Wayne Grotski (symsymsym), Saturday, 17 October 2020 05:16 (one week ago) link

This was a huge flop AFAICT.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, 17 October 2020 05:17 (one week ago) link

it seems like every single detail of that is wrong

Tom King does write comic books tbf

Covidiots from UHF (sic), Saturday, 17 October 2020 05:24 (one week ago) link

The comic Itself is a total snooze

Chuck_Tatum, Saturday, 17 October 2020 06:40 (one week ago) link

I just watched this and man, a lot of early posts in this thread have aged incredibly poorly

shout-out to his family (DJP), Saturday, 17 October 2020 14:24 (one week ago) link

instead of dr. manhattan obliterating Rorschach he just conks him on the head with an oar which causes him to pass out. he does this every time rorschach wakes up.

instead of the monster destroying new york it just rolls over the city like a giant penny and good people can avoid it by ducking into holes in its side

instead of one scene on mars the characters constantly shuttle between the two planets and when asked why they say do you have a better idea?

― Einstein, Kazanga, Sitar (abanana), Wednesday, June 21, 2017 11:24 AM (three years ago) bookmarkflaglink

1/3

wasdnous (abanana), Saturday, 17 October 2020 15:20 (one week ago) link

also, given what the show is, sic comes off super racist in this thread

shout-out to his family (DJP), Saturday, 17 October 2020 15:30 (one week ago) link

as one of the few ppl to assume it would be good, the ending was really a shame

it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Saturday, 17 October 2020 15:38 (one week ago) link

I loved the whole thing

shout-out to his family (DJP), Saturday, 17 October 2020 15:40 (one week ago) link

agree

akm, Saturday, 17 October 2020 16:47 (one week ago) link

hard disagree, but i think i've been pretty clear about why upthread. perhaps someday after finishing a dozen other more promising series i will regretfully return for the back end of this show simply out of the need to see what i'm apparently missing.

i never thought i'd be so disappointed about and by the critical and commercial dominance of comic book adaptations, but damn if i'm not increasingly uninterested in watching thematic chainmail weight collapsing the wire hanger of superhero pomp.

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Saturday, 17 October 2020 17:41 (one week ago) link

dunno, I can't recall your previous objections but that assessment is miles off the mark re: this series

akm, Saturday, 17 October 2020 18:21 (one week ago) link

scroll ctrl+f if you want context but my main concern was the terrible scripting

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Saturday, 17 October 2020 18:23 (one week ago) link

i loved the show too!
also i love everyone itt but jfc this thread was a fuckin ~chore~

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 17 October 2020 18:52 (one week ago) link

word. when the ilx hivemind just decides to hate on certain things and people, then its time to step away from the thread

Nhex, Saturday, 17 October 2020 19:51 (one week ago) link

I mean, as the threadstarter I had absolutely no hopes for it. Turns out Lindelof did the right thing in the end, which I didn't expect in the slightest. Happy to have expectations undone.

Ned Raggett, Saturday, 17 October 2020 19:53 (one week ago) link

in yr face NED

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 17 October 2020 21:15 (one week ago) link

:D

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 17 October 2020 21:15 (one week ago) link

What do you mean by “terrible scripting”? The only thing in the show I thought was off was the idea that Veidt would make a video for President Redford.

shout-out to his family (DJP), Saturday, 17 October 2020 23:28 (one week ago) link

this is a batch of pertinent quotes all upthread. it's been months since i tried to watch it so i don't have specific lines in mind but I do remember hitting at least three "OH COME ON" moments per episode with the scripting.

Thoughts after two episodes: the casting is great, the acting is fun, the production values are movie level, the score is good, the ideas at play seem generally interesting and worthwhile and the script and plotting are hot garbage. There's also an ugly, oily taste to the childish absorption with ultra-violence; the brutality=serious drama HBO formula is in full effect here. It doesn't much move the story forward in any way but it does seem gratuitous as fuck and clearly designed to make sure viewers understand this ain't no funny book this is GRIM AND GRITTY pilgrim.

Maybe these very serious, very harsh realities are better dealt with in a series that doesn't see a car electromagnetized away by a night owl UFO?

a lot of my immediate antipathy likely comes down to just not being able to cope with lindelof or his schtick. his work at its best seems generally like the brightest ideas we came up with in high school about how a fight with wolverine and the hulk would REALLY go down.

Fumbled through the third episode. Why is this writing so fucking bad? The Ozymandius/Irons and Silk Spectre/Smart scripting is particularly egregious but there’s just so many bad decisions throughout.

so here's the thing: I'm a fan of Hong Chau after seeing her in Driveways so I'm inclined to try one more episode to see what she does in this, at which point I suppose i'm at the tipping point of "you're not coming here for the hunting" and I'm either gonna cope with the shitty dialogue and plotting and just enjoy the acting and the fx or else i guess i've tried my best.

Smart is fun in the role! Irons is fun in the role! Both of them have abysmal scripting! Basically everyone is great in the role! Basically everyone has shitty writing! Tons of stupid shit going on here with little to justify it other than a definite sense of "we gotta get to the point where all our story points are in place so we can have the two hours that fit within the parameters we've very arbitrarily and sloppily laid out."

if the "joke" on the phone with doc manhattan or the "how do you tell the difference between a vigilante and a masked cop" line at a funeral seemed reasonable to you, we're looking for different things in our television.

Some thoughts after episode 4:

- I forgot my biggest issue with Lindelof is trust. He creates a hundred nagging "yeah but" situations that he leaves hanging and then surrounds these with MORE questions built atop the earlier questions. You end up hanging on watching just to see how he cleans up the mess... but it's rare that he actually does! Generally there's a number of unlikely twists and/or a deus ex machina and considering this show has a literal deus ex machina baked in, I just realized that I don't much care about the answers behind the questions behind the questions. Or any of these characters! They're well acted but, after over three hours of screentime, they are all still total ciphers.

- Lesser crime but worth considering: there is no reason for this to be a Watchmen story! It might actually be a lot better without the IP or at least be freer to indulge in the story it wants to tell instead of propping it up with something far distant and disconnected.

- Fourth episode title was “If You Don't Like My Story, Write Your Own”. The other option, of course, is just to find a better story so I'm done with this and off to I Will Destroy You.

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Saturday, 17 October 2020 23:37 (one week ago) link

('I Will Destroy You' ended up being probably the best television of the year btw)

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Saturday, 17 October 2020 23:40 (one week ago) link

So basically you didn’t buy the premise

shout-out to his family (DJP), Sunday, 18 October 2020 02:28 (one week ago) link

I thought it was an extremely entertaining meditation on the pernicious nature of racism combined with a subversion of the model minority stereotypes that also made explicit an implicit hanging thread from the original series (Hooded Justice made zero sense as a character until this series). I also think you bailed right when the show got super interesting. I also think the show will do nothing for you.

shout-out to his family (DJP), Sunday, 18 October 2020 02:34 (one week ago) link

Again, it's been a few months since I tried watching the watchmen, but that said: I don't know if I'd say I "didn't buy the premise." I definitely considered the plot and presentation unnecessarily convoluted and the writing awash in far-fetched cliffhanger and punchline-based dialogue. The visuals and concepts were doing most of the heavy lifting and, for something this thematically challenging, that wasn't enough for me. I honestly wanted it to be better.

I figured out on my own that the show was likely not for me by dint of watching about half of it! It had numerous redeeming factors, I just couldn't get over the scripting and pace. There were a lot of interesting puzzles that I have little doubt end up eventually partially resolved; the clear raison d'etre of the first four episodes was simply to set up the dominoes. I would argue that taking longer than the entire runtime of The Seven Samurai to set up your story to the point where it gets "super interesting" is a fault of its creator. I ran out of patience waiting for the creators to stop introducing gotcha moments and start addressing the ideas in play and, after four hours, they lost me entirely.

Tangential topic: given some very nerdy conversations we've both had on ILX, it's probably safe to say we both have some strong opinions about the source material. I'm not inherently against expanding another constructed universe (though the original creator's strong discouragement of it should certainly count for something?), but the join between Moore and Lindelof's worlds felt jarringly incomplete to me. More of scaffolding than building on the existing structure, which isn't a sin in and of itself but it is indicative of the nature of HBO and its corporate entities to carelessly grave rob IP. There were definite positive outcomes associated in this case (broader cultural awareness of the Tulsa riots, the long overdue stardom of Regina King, a challenging presentation of white supremacy being an underground American driving force even within an alternate utopia) but I doubt that is a product of or justification of this approach.

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Sunday, 18 October 2020 19:38 (one week ago) link

Would you consider it justified if a series incorporating those elements could/would not have have been made without the "hook" of the underlying IP? (This is an honest question....)

Guitar Dick (morrisp), Sunday, 18 October 2020 19:51 (one week ago) link

Well that's a business decision right? Your phrasing suggests that corporate entities hold interesting ideas hostage in exchange for franchise building and i certainly hope it's not that much of a quid pro quo. I'm all in favor of entertainment being more challenging and innovative; not sure why that necessarily has to come at the expense of originality?

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Sunday, 18 October 2020 20:06 (one week ago) link

While some of your complaints have validity, this show most definitely did something wildly original with the source material. It ended up as a best possible case scenario more or less!

Nhex, Sunday, 18 October 2020 20:11 (one week ago) link

xp I'm not suggesting it necessarily does, but underlying IP is often key to getting a project made, for better or worse (Lovecraft Country may be a relevant comparison here).

Guitar Dick (morrisp), Sunday, 18 October 2020 20:13 (one week ago) link

I guess a better way to phrase the question may be - considering the Watchmen series exists, and does contain those elements, do you consider it a net gain or loss?

Guitar Dick (morrisp), Sunday, 18 October 2020 20:15 (one week ago) link

It’s a great show but the ending is such a mess! Really feeble endings for several characters, and King wuz robbed of a great swimming pool walking scene. Would definitely watch again, though.

Chuck_Tatum, Sunday, 18 October 2020 20:44 (one week ago) link

do you consider it a net gain or loss?

If you mean as far as for "the culture," I don't think it matters at all what I think about it! Based on what I was able to glean on its intentions, I think it is almost certainly a good show in principle; it failed for me in practice.

Superseding questions of cultural validity over one's actual enjoyment of a teevee program has become a lot of folks' (not necessarily anyone in this thread) default means of television criticism. That has its place but if I don't like it, I don't like it. Storytelling is hard.

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Sunday, 18 October 2020 21:21 (one week ago) link

I hear you... I only asked b/c you yourself raised the question of whether the positive outcomes were “a product of or justification” of the approach to the IP.

bagel in the streets, donut in the sheets (morrisp), Sunday, 18 October 2020 21:26 (one week ago) link

I mostly mean as far as supporting the continuation of reboots of IP as pop culture's preferred way of exploring new ideas with old clothing, which I'm kinda over.

As a "Storytelling is hard" example: I'm currently fighting through the third episode of "Adult Material" (on HBO in December) and that's another example where the quality of the separate parts doesn't seem to be adding up to an enjoyable show for me. The acting is good, the scripting is okay, the themes are challenging but they're edging a little too far into brutal for my taste (much of the plot hinges on an anal prolapse) and the story is increasingly knotty. I watch a lot of teevee but I suppose I require total narrative cohesion to fully buy into a show.

(Lovecraft Country may be a relevant comparison here).

Lovecraft is a)public domain and b)a noted bigot (and the story, as I understand it, skewers his racism) so I really perceive the issues i brought up as pertaining to Watchmen as apples/orange wrt Lovecraft Country. Now that it's finished tonight, I'll likely wade in... wish i could get my partner interested, but she has no cthulu mythos exposure and considers anything even horror-adjacent to be unwatchable.

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Sunday, 18 October 2020 21:36 (one week ago) link

It’s based on a recent novel, AFAIK

bagel in the streets, donut in the sheets (morrisp), Sunday, 18 October 2020 21:47 (one week ago) link

but she has no cthulu mythos exposure and considers anything even horror-adjacent to be unwatchable

Other than the name and the first episode (maybe), it has pretty much no connection to cthulu mythos.

Quiet Storm Thorgerson (PBKR), Sunday, 18 October 2020 22:13 (one week ago) link

We recently got HBO, via a free promo... watched I May Destroy You (which was excellent); caught up on Insecure; and now watching this crazy docuseries about the McDonald’s Monopoly racketeering scheme.

bagel in the streets, donut in the sheets (morrisp), Monday, 19 October 2020 00:47 (one week ago) link

I definitely considered the plot and presentation unnecessarily convoluted and the writing awash in far-fetched cliffhanger and punchline-based dialogue.

I agree with this but it's a personal preference for me and I don't know that it makes Watchmen bad, I find the HBO house style these days often convoluted and mistaking clever for interesting (couldn't stand Westworld either). Lovecraft Country is the first HBO show in years to hook me, partially because it's more human-level and because I enjoyed the book so much. (Have not tried Succession yet.)

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Monday, 19 October 2020 00:52 (one week ago) link

Succession rules, and I say this as someone who actively wanted to hate it.

it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Monday, 19 October 2020 01:13 (one week ago) link

Lovecraft Country is indeed an adaptation of a book and it’s more Lovecraftian Country, in both senses: full of monsters, and full of racist monsters

I think the idea that serious issues like the Tulsa massacre can only be contextualized via serious art and not genre fiction ignores how we weave the fabric of history into our stories and how that provides context in our time. We can have infinitely many films and tv shows that acknowledge Nazis and have absurdities like zombie civil war southerners that are so halfassed in execution but cement “oh, that’s the bad guy” because of historical shorthand. But when it comes to things we hold deep reverence for, it’s suddenly a grievous bastardization of history if a retelling doesn’t fit into an Oscar-winning dramatic formula

mh, Monday, 19 October 2020 03:21 (one week ago) link

not to mention that, silly genre trappings or not, the depiction was apparently impactful/effective enough to inspire a pretty significant resurgence of interest in the event

it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Monday, 19 October 2020 12:10 (one week ago) link

Do all of these episodes have post credits scenes? I just left a videofile running while I went out of the room and found an extra scene on the penultimate one.

Stevolende, Monday, 19 October 2020 15:42 (one week ago) link

Only one does

shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 19 October 2020 15:53 (one week ago) link

if you don't count the one where Dr. Manhattan conks Rorschach with an oar

it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Monday, 19 October 2020 15:58 (one week ago) link


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