a quick poll about Russia and Donald Trump

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Much chatter about this business, some of it "here it is, the smoking gun!" and some of it "smoke and mirrors will always ensnare the gullible." What is your opinion: is this something, or nothing?

Poll Results

OptionVotes
something 37
nothing 8


though the tempest rages, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Saturday, 25 March 2017 21:10 (one year ago) Permalink

I think it's something, just not the Manchurain Candidate LARP people want it to be.

Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Saturday, 25 March 2017 21:11 (one year ago) Permalink

I think it's something, just not the Manchurain Candidate LARP people want it to be.

Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Saturday, 25 March 2017 21:11 (one year ago) Permalink

there's a bunch of something but it may never become clear during this presidency

millwallreptile (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 25 March 2017 21:11 (one year ago) Permalink

Wow what an annoying bug

Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Saturday, 25 March 2017 21:12 (one year ago) Permalink

oh and what DJP said it's far more old-fashioned corruption and back-scratching than a masterplan to destroy the US

millwallreptile (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 25 March 2017 21:12 (one year ago) Permalink

Wow what an annoying bug

though the tempest rages, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Saturday, 25 March 2017 21:13 (one year ago) Permalink

sorry

though the tempest rages, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Saturday, 25 March 2017 21:13 (one year ago) Permalink

There is something, probably more than just 'something', but the smoking gun stuff is tiring. I think there's a lot of pieces that need to be puzzled together. NV otm though that's is not some masterminded thing but mostly stupidity and surrounding himself with stupid fraudster where Trump's concerned.

Le Bateau Ivre, Saturday, 25 March 2017 21:16 (one year ago) Permalink

i have it on good authority that after just a few hundred more tweets about trump and russia, bernie will finally be president

sleepingbag, Saturday, 25 March 2017 21:17 (one year ago) Permalink

i have it on good authority that after just a few hundred more tweets about trump and russia, bernie will finally be president

this is kinda the function of this poll - to talk about whether this stuff is mainly heroes-and-villains control-the-dialogue stuff, or whether there's actual dirt in it, and why one does or doesn't think so

though the tempest rages, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Saturday, 25 March 2017 21:24 (one year ago) Permalink

From the moment the DNC leaks happened one day before the Dem convention, this was a scandal. Already back then, the information pointed to Russia. And yet there was no bi-partisan condemnation. That was already scandalous.

Also, what should be incredibly obvious, but the main reason leftists like Greenwald are trying to downplay everything is because they played a key role all along. With the DNC leaks meant to harm with the Sanders wing, and the first Podesta emails including snippets of Goldman Sachs speeches, this was always obviously the Russians trying to create harm with the left, and would never have been so harmful if they hadn't taken the bait 100%.

Frederik B, Saturday, 25 March 2017 21:36 (one year ago) Permalink

so, heroes and villains, you're saying

though the tempest rages, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Saturday, 25 March 2017 21:45 (one year ago) Permalink

I suspect the gist of it is that Trump surrounded himself with cranks and shady business people who couldn't get a seat at the table with more mainstream Republicans. Some of them, like Flynn, are more than usually sympathetic to Russia - probably in Flynn's case because he was paid and taken seriously as a critic of the Obama government when nobody else was interested in him. Some, like Manafort and Cohen, don't have any particular political axe to grind but have found the region a useful place to make shady money.

I do t think there will be evidence of a quid-pro-quo. Partly because, if Russia did provide the emails to Wikileaks, there was enough animus there towards Clinton to have done it anyway, partly because there doesn't seem to be any change of direction in the relationship with Russia. The sanctions have been reconfirmed, the inviolability of Ukrainian sovereignty loudly proclaimed and plans for a vast US military build-up announced. I can't see any of that changing unless Europe moves first on normalising Crimea.

It isn't impossible that there was an agreement but nothing in any of the stories seems to indicate anybody has any evidence or, more broadly, any idea how to create a vaguely plausible narrative.

Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Saturday, 25 March 2017 21:55 (one year ago) Permalink

I'm definitely sympathetic to the idea of wanting it to be true but the whole business of signal boosting hucksters like Adam Khan, HuffPo randos and a woman who thinks Putin arranged the Westminster terrorist attack should embarrass all concerned.

Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Saturday, 25 March 2017 22:00 (one year ago) Permalink

SV otm,

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Saturday, 25 March 2017 22:05 (one year ago) Permalink

Also, what should be incredibly obvious, but the main reason leftists like Greenwald are trying to downplay everything is because they played a key role all along. With the DNC leaks meant to harm with the Sanders wing, and the first Podesta emails including snippets of Goldman Sachs speeches, this was always obviously the Russians trying to create harm with the left, and would never have been so harmful if they hadn't taken the bait 100%.

Is this supposed to be the extent of Russian 'interference' in the US election?

My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Saturday, 25 March 2017 22:12 (one year ago) Permalink

Is there much evidence that these leaks led to a major loss of support for HRC from people who were planning to vote for her otherwise?

My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Saturday, 25 March 2017 22:28 (one year ago) Permalink

i have it on good authority that after just a few hundred more tweets about trump and russia, bernie will finally be president

― sleepingbag, Saturday, March 25, 2017 5:17 PM (fifty-four minutes ago)

this is a pretty pathetic post

k3vin k., Saturday, 25 March 2017 22:30 (one year ago) Permalink

trump owes shitloads to the russians. he scratches their backs, they continue scratching his by helping take down hillz. he's such a corrupt dunning-kruger silver spoon he doesn't realize he and his hangers on committed treason

reggie (qualmsley), Saturday, 25 March 2017 22:34 (one year ago) Permalink

thanks

I think it's going to be difficult to show active collusion [between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin] because people who study this say that the Russian government often works with groups that they have very arms-length relations with. It's unlikely these groups have an easily verifiable link either to the Kremlin or to the Trump team. It could also be that they really wanted to see Trump in office, so they did these things without active collusion.

otm, Russian intelligence isn't dumb enough to have actual FSB fingerprints on stuff; but the Trump camp folks are so dense who knows, I mean the Roger Stone -> Guccifer 2.0 twitter DM thing was pretty 0_o

Not the real Tombot (El Tomboto), Saturday, 25 March 2017 23:48 (one year ago) Permalink

it's nothing like Frederik's deranged fantasies

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 25 March 2017 23:53 (one year ago) Permalink

http://occupydemocrats.com/2017/03/23/man-testified-trumps-campaign-chair-just-shot-dead/

Manchurian candidate LARP is a charitable way to put it!

the late great, Saturday, 25 March 2017 23:53 (one year ago) Permalink

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

System, Sunday, 26 March 2017 00:01 (one year ago) Permalink

trump's dramatic arc calls for an ignominious fall. if russia doesn't do it some other criminal activity will have to be unearthed. it doesn't make aesthetic sense for him to just continue to lose popularity and sort of fade away after four years.

blame society (Treeship), Sunday, 26 March 2017 00:36 (one year ago) Permalink

The thing is that this is real life and not a movie. Actual results will either be wholly unsatisfactory or so batshit insane that no one will believe it's actually real.

Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Sunday, 26 March 2017 03:03 (one year ago) Permalink

batshit insanity seems to cling to trump like a bad aroma

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Sunday, 26 March 2017 03:04 (one year ago) Permalink

Like, the most likely scenarios I see panning out here are "Trump is an incurious moron who surrounded himself with compromised ninnies because they flattered home the most" or "Trump and Putin are secretly lovers planning to conquer the entire world through military action and trade shenanigans"

Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Sunday, 26 March 2017 03:05 (one year ago) Permalink

imo, the explanation could be: trump is addicted to the idea of making deals that make him money. this is central to his self-image. business deals are only about one thing: making or losing money. Russia offered him deals that make him money. there is no connection in his mind between his running for president, his deals with russia, his making money, and his committing treason or felonies. they are wholly compartmentalized in different parts of his brain. and then there was the money, too.

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Sunday, 26 March 2017 03:19 (one year ago) Permalink

Dan's first scenario is almost exactly what I've been assuming for some time. Dan's second scenario is the plot of a series of self-published erotic novels I have coming out later this year.

Ambling Shambling Man (Old Lunch), Sunday, 26 March 2017 04:05 (one year ago) Permalink

kinda just wish the fucker would choke on a ham sandwich (DJT, not DJP)

Neanderthal, Sunday, 26 March 2017 04:32 (one year ago) Permalink

because even if there is an actual fire in this case, idk how much more of this ugly shit this country can take at this point....which isn't to say I don't think it should be pursued, but just that it's all so fatiguing

Neanderthal, Sunday, 26 March 2017 04:35 (one year ago) Permalink

I think it's something, just not the Manchurain Candidate LARP people want it to be.

otm

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Sunday, 26 March 2017 05:04 (one year ago) Permalink

more to the point, not nothing, but also not something worth wasting precious effort on

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Sunday, 26 March 2017 05:08 (one year ago) Permalink

imo, the explanation could be: trump is addicted to the idea of making deals that make him money. this is central to his self-image. business deals are only about one thing: making or losing money. Russia offered him deals that make him money. there is no connection in his mind between his running for president, his deals with russia, his making money, and his committing treason or felonies. they are wholly compartmentalized in different parts of his brain. and then there was the money, too.

I think the difficulty with this, and a lot of similar theories - like him 'owing money to Russia', is what we mean by 'Russia'. Is the Russian government offering him deals? Is he doing favours for non-government investors?

I think Trump is probably sceptical of sanctions and part of that scepticism could be motivated by self-interest, along with a broader idea that they are bad for business, but that scepticism seems to have been overridden by political reality and would fall a long way short of malfeasance on its own.

The wider trend of lumping everyone from Russians to Ukrainians, Azeris, Armenians, Russian-Armericans, Jewish Lithuanians who emigrated from the Soviet Union to the US aged seven, people who have business interests in Russia, people married to Russians, etc, as a suspicious monolith called 'Russia' is where it gets deep into what critics like Marsha Gessen are describing as a xenophobic conspiracy.

Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Sunday, 26 March 2017 07:42 (one year ago) Permalink

'putin's sphere of influence'

j., Sunday, 26 March 2017 15:11 (one year ago) Permalink

the saddest insult to everyday americans in a loooooong looooooooooongg time is trump and his buddies were convinced they could get away with it :/

reggie (qualmsley), Sunday, 26 March 2017 16:36 (one year ago) Permalink

I suspect the gist of it is that Trump surrounded himself with cranks and shady business people who couldn't get a seat at the table with more mainstream Republicans. Some of them, like Flynn, are more than usually sympathetic to Russia - probably in Flynn's case because he was paid and taken seriously as a critic of the Obama government when nobody else was interested in him. Some, like Manafort and Cohen, don't have any particular political axe to grind but have found the region a useful place to make shady money.

I do t think there will be evidence of a quid-pro-quo. Partly because, if Russia did provide the emails to Wikileaks, there was enough animus there towards Clinton to have done it anyway, partly because there doesn't seem to be any change of direction in the relationship with Russia. The sanctions have been reconfirmed, the inviolability of Ukrainian sovereignty loudly proclaimed and plans for a vast US military build-up announced. I can't see any of that changing unless Europe moves first on normalising Crimea.

otm

the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 26 March 2017 17:12 (one year ago) Permalink

lol @ "something"

Russia is going to be Trump's Benghazi

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Sunday, 26 March 2017 20:22 (one year ago) Permalink

maybe in terms of fallout but probably not in terms of what, like, actually happened

Neanderthal, Sunday, 26 March 2017 20:54 (one year ago) Permalink

yeah there seems way way way more here than there was with Benghazi, and I'm not just saying that because I hate Donald Trump

frogbs, Monday, 27 March 2017 13:14 (one year ago) Permalink

his campaign advisor through the republican national convention had a $10,000,000 a year contract to advance russia's interests, from 2006 till Grover Norquist knows when. imagine the shoe on the other foot. moscowghazi hearings till the cows come home

reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 27 March 2017 13:22 (one year ago) Permalink

the GOP called Obama "King Obama" for far lesser trangressions than Donald

Neanderthal, Monday, 27 March 2017 13:26 (one year ago) Permalink

they seem to be saying, people who believe above all in tax cuts for the rich are also epic hypocrites. it's not a good look, not that fox/koch nation gives a shit

reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 27 March 2017 13:29 (one year ago) Permalink

Posted this on the main thread but worth a note:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/27/us/politics/senate-jared-kushner-russia.html?referer

Ned Raggett, Monday, 27 March 2017 13:31 (one year ago) Permalink

also didn't Roger Stone, who most biographies describe as Trump's closest advisor, straight up admit he was in contact with Russian hackers? isn't it weird how Stone, Guiliani, and every member of the Trump family (besides Tiffany, probably) knew exactly when the Wikileaks stuff was gonna start dropping?

frogbs, Monday, 27 March 2017 13:45 (one year ago) Permalink

it's only weird if you hate business and jesus and the constitution and success

reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 27 March 2017 14:01 (one year ago) Permalink

yeah there seems way way way more here than there was with Benghazi

100 times zero is still zero

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 27 March 2017 22:13 (one year ago) Permalink

Shortly after the news broke, Comey, referring to the Biblical Book of Amos, tweeted, “But justice roll down like waters and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.”

actually it was on instagram FAKE NEWS

Dic Space has been contacted for comment. (bizarro gazzara), Saturday, 2 December 2017 20:08 (one year ago) Permalink

also that's totally a piss tape reference right

Dic Space has been contacted for comment. (bizarro gazzara), Saturday, 2 December 2017 20:09 (one year ago) Permalink

he cross-posted to twitter /factcheckingcuz

shackling the masses with plastic-wrapped snack picks (sic), Saturday, 2 December 2017 20:36 (one year ago) Permalink

It’s a pretty corny and self-aggrandizing tweetagram wherever it was posted.

New Jersey (treeship 2), Saturday, 2 December 2017 22:11 (one year ago) Permalink

That deal [Trump Tower Moscow] never came to fruition, but the intent expressed on both sides is deeply troubling.

vlad is maybe waiting on don to deliver rosneft from sanctions, jeff

reggie (qualmsley), Saturday, 2 December 2017 22:40 (one year ago) Permalink

picture yourself at the great gates of kiev, an exhibition of baba yaga huts

rolling trump-russian collusion

reggie (qualmsley), Saturday, 2 December 2017 23:51 (one year ago) Permalink

seven months pass...

let's hear it for the "something" voters

she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 14:22 (eight months ago) Permalink

pretty sure even I did not vote "nothing"

Simon H., Wednesday, 18 July 2018 14:25 (eight months ago) Permalink

i bleeve everyone knew about his money laundering dating back to the '80s

the ignatius rock of ignorance (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 14:26 (eight months ago) Permalink

he's still president last time i checked

Hazy Maze Cave (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 14:30 (eight months ago) Permalink

big oaks from little somethings grow

A is for (Aimless), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 18:08 (eight months ago) Permalink

donald trump: a grower not a shower, asserts ilxor dot com poster ‘aimless’

BIG RICHARD ENERGY (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 18 July 2018 18:13 (eight months ago) Permalink

three months pass...
two months pass...

Also note - unlike the NYT reporters, who tweeted their correction - @joshtpm never bothered to note the central claim of his viral tweet about Manafort & Deripaska was retracted. It wouldn't have mattered - retrations are ignored - but it's good to pretend to care about accuracy pic.twitter.com/Wr7T9lPwCj

— Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) January 10, 2019

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 10 January 2019 12:30 (two months ago) Permalink

fail dive

Hunt3r, Thursday, 10 January 2019 12:47 (two months ago) Permalink

Enjoy this one as wel. 'The essence of Russia-gate' loll:

The essence of RussiaGate - over and over and over and over and over: pic.twitter.com/4JrgD1OHGu

— Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) January 10, 2019

Just a reminder that Greenwald himself took information from Russian intelligence to spread no-stories about Hillary.

Frederik B, Thursday, 10 January 2019 13:49 (two months ago) Permalink

get adopted by the Clintons, boy

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 10 January 2019 13:49 (two months ago) Permalink

Pathetic stuff from GG, thanks for sharing, Morbz.

by the light of the burning Citroën, Thursday, 10 January 2019 14:04 (two months ago) Permalink

i'm sure that factual error was not reported here, so i was compelled

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 10 January 2019 14:54 (two months ago) Permalink

The original story was hardly reported here...

Frederik B, Thursday, 10 January 2019 15:17 (two months ago) Permalink

no collusion! build the wall!!

reggie (qualmsley), Thursday, 10 January 2019 15:49 (two months ago) Permalink

Weird how Glenn clings to every minor correction to the story he’s been insanely wrong about for two years.

Nerdstrom Poindexter, Thursday, 10 January 2019 16:23 (two months ago) Permalink

Well, yeah. The underlying point is that The Intercept got the story catastrophically wrong in 2016, and instead of admitting to having fucked up they've ever so slowly moved the goalposts, while Glenn claims to be a voice of moderation on the issue.

Frederik B, Thursday, 10 January 2019 16:36 (two months ago) Permalink

Weird how you guys have what my late papa would call an eternal "hard-on" for GG.

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 10 January 2019 16:40 (two months ago) Permalink

Jealous

fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Thursday, 10 January 2019 16:54 (two months ago) Permalink

Weird how you guys have what my late papa would call an eternal "hard-on" for GG.

given you shared the GG tweet that started this revive even you must know this is ridiculous

Bênoit Balls (stevie), Thursday, 10 January 2019 17:36 (two months ago) Permalink

at least benghazi had bodies

(ADVANCE) (320k vbr) (--V2) (aps) (diVX) (2CD) OST - SB (2019) (esby), Thursday, 10 January 2019 19:01 (two months ago) Permalink

SB, your posts seem to be based in a senseless contrarianism and knee-jerk cynicism, backed by no discernable position. whyzatso?

A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 10 January 2019 19:15 (two months ago) Permalink

lol

(ADVANCE) (320k vbr) (--V2) (aps) (diVX) (2CD) OST - SB (2019) (esby), Thursday, 10 January 2019 19:19 (two months ago) Permalink

sorry *conforms to ilx poster mentality* trump met with six russians while he was shitting and peeing all over himself!!!!!! tax returns !!!

(ADVANCE) (320k vbr) (--V2) (aps) (diVX) (2CD) OST - SB (2019) (esby), Thursday, 10 January 2019 19:20 (two months ago) Permalink

sb is the non-awaited return of libtriggering mra renegade and general edgebore esleeping byag? If so this more clownish iteration is an improvement

Pierrot with a thousand farces (wins), Thursday, 10 January 2019 19:23 (two months ago) Permalink

stevie, to make it clear, the meaning of "hard-on" there is animus

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 10 January 2019 19:24 (two months ago) Permalink

xp when live cod were shipped to Asia from North America, their flesh ended up gross and mushy from inactivity. In order to keep the cod active, the fisherman started putting catfish in with the cod to nip at their tails and keep them active.

(ADVANCE) (320k vbr) (--V2) (aps) (diVX) (2CD) OST - SB (2019) (esby), Thursday, 10 January 2019 19:29 (two months ago) Permalink

That’s what I’m saying, Bumblebee Guy but dressed as a gadfly

Pierrot with a thousand farces (wins), Thursday, 10 January 2019 19:32 (two months ago) Permalink

but SB, you post only to the most active threads

A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 10 January 2019 19:34 (two months ago) Permalink

anyway sorry please continue to discuss dr morbius retweet from glenn greenwald about trump russia

(ADVANCE) (320k vbr) (--V2) (aps) (diVX) (2CD) OST - SB (2019) (esby), Thursday, 10 January 2019 19:56 (two months ago) Permalink

You are literally the Tubgirl of ILX

fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Thursday, 10 January 2019 19:56 (two months ago) Permalink

three weeks pass...

Emptywheel seems to think this does a good job of summing up her own suspicions:

Morning epiphany: @emptywheel was right and the whole Carter Page - Man of Mystery - was an elaborate distraction, an illusion used by the magician to make us look for fake conspiracy instead of at the real one. The Russians were clearly onto Steele and fed...(1/14)

— Larisa Alexandrovna (@larisa_a) February 6, 2019

tldr It was always about money

Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 18:50 (one month ago) Permalink

this has been more or less what I've always thought.

Scam jam, thank you ma’am (Sparkle Motion), Wednesday, 6 February 2019 18:58 (one month ago) Permalink

That seems really plausible. Also it doesn’t require any more evidence than what we know already.

What are Trump’s finances like since becoming president?

Trϵϵship, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 19:05 (one month ago) Permalink

That's a pretty good read, and it boils down to "Trump's job was to unlock the house for the thieves."

Who the f knows regarding his finances, but I have a strong suspicion Mueller does.

I don't come off well (Dan Peterson), Wednesday, 6 February 2019 19:06 (one month ago) Permalink

"And then something unexpected happened. The USIC/USLE made public that Russia had hacked the DNC. Suddenly, team Trump realized the "how" of the help. They panicked... deals were being called off, a frenzy of meetings and discussions were had... (7/14)"

but Trump was publicly asking Russia to get Her Emails

A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Wednesday, 6 February 2019 19:06 (one month ago) Permalink

Joeks...

I don't come off well (Dan Peterson), Wednesday, 6 February 2019 19:09 (one month ago) Permalink

He didn’t understand the significance of that, then. It had to be explained to him.

Trϵϵship, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 19:10 (one month ago) Permalink

Life is just a joke for Trump.

Trϵϵship, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 19:11 (one month ago) Permalink

Of course that is only half of the story, and she and Marcy Wheeler don't really delve into the second half - which is that having wittingly or unwittingly unlocked the house, once elected Trump likely committed further conspiratorial crimes in the form of cover-ups and obstruction, either out of ignorance or stupidity or likely both, plus arrogance (which is in character).

Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 6 February 2019 19:23 (one month ago) Permalink


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