"croissant-munching, latte-sipping": instances of misconceived media-class self-loathing ITT

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point 1: there is literally no budget-price supermarket you can't buy croissants in = fkn everyone munches them
point 2: you can get a latte in a SPAR in run-down mid-Wales = much the same applies

translation: when ppl use this to indicate the "out-of-touchness" of the class they themselves come from, they indicate their own out-of-touchness

mark s, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 11:38 (two years ago) link

great thread:

https://twitter.com/WeWantPlates

people who go to shit restaurants complaining about their choice by criticising the perceived pretentiousness of the crap restaurants they CHOOSE TO GO TO, as if they've dipped their toe into a dimension that disgusts them, rather than being the only ones living in that dimension.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 11:42 (two years ago) link

'the class they themselves come from' -- do you mean, the middle class?

The middle class is quite broad and diverse - in that sense, not surprising that people from one sector of it attack another.

I agree about the croissant and latte.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 11:52 (two years ago) link

this is not abt ppl from one sector attacking another, it's abt people acting the sector them themselves are in

it isn't a question of what *i* mean by this class, i am not the one doing this anooying thing: you might well ask the ppl doing it who precisely they mean

mark s, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 11:58 (two years ago) link

Croissants and lattes are:

a) very visible *as accessories* for a certain type of professional
b) European, and not part of any good honest Full English

Whether Real People eat croissants or drink lattes is neither here nor there. cf "cheese eating surrender monkeys" when America consumes more cheese than France two or three times over.

Matt DC, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 11:59 (two years ago) link

nobody actually ever used "cheese eating surrender monkeys" - wasn't that from the simpsons or something?

as if croissants aren't ubiquitous and just a normal food - i hardly think the people who use "croissant-munching/latte-swilling" as pejoratives are eating a fry-up every morning.

i have never seen anyone use a croissant as an accessory. pastries of some kind are a fact of office life.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:04 (two years ago) link

i hardly think the people who use "croissant-munching/latte-swilling" as pejoratives are eating a fry-up every morning.

Too bad, was looking forward to a generation of wasteman liberal authentocrat newspaper columnists all getting coronaries in their early fifties tbh

more like dork enlightenment lol (Bananaman Begins), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:07 (two years ago) link

the point of the thread is note examples of an annoying stupid thing, not to offer reasons why the annoying stupid thing is ok and fine

it is a descendent of "Use other words please."

mark s, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:08 (two years ago) link

as far as i can tell the only people who still eat a fryup every morning are longtime civil servants and (separate circle with intersection) alcoholics

xpost

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:09 (two years ago) link

i have never seen anyone use a croissant as an accessory. pastries of some kind are a fact of office life.

They are an accessory if you imagine that outside the window are a load of salt-of-the-earth types eyeing your choice of coffee and pastry with incomprehension and suspicion, which almost certainly never happens in reality.

No one actually says "croissant-munching, latte-sipping" either but everyone knows what's being implied, as much as "hummus-eating" or whatever.

Matt DC, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:11 (two years ago) link

i've noticed islington being cited a lot lately. i know islington has been posh for many moons, but i feel like there's been a spike in this as lazy shorthand for all the evils of out-of-touch london. dunno if it's post-corbyn.

also "shoreditch" - it'll probably still be cited as home of all hipsters, by people who've never been there, or possibly never been to london, even after the price of a tiny studio apartment tops £2m.

xpost people DEFINITELY say "croissant-munching/latte-sipping" and "hummus-eating". afaik those flavoured hummus dips are a massive massive success in like tesco/sainsburies but still, apparently eating hummus means you're not a real englander.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:13 (two years ago) link

re "examples of an annoying stupid thing" -- I would still benefit from more clarity about the thing.

Is it eg: middle class liberals sneering at middle class liberals?

Or eg: middle class conservatives sneering at middle class liberals?

the pinefox, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:14 (two years ago) link

It goes further back than that, Islington was the actual cradle of New Labour (like, Blair and Brown literally went for dinner on Upper Street), a lot of liberal actors lived there in the 90s. Corbyn really represents the other half of Islington, the poverty and the deprivation that's still there in a lot of the borough, but it suits a lot of people *within* the Labour party/liberal media to pretend that he's just another out-of-touch luvvie.

Matt DC, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:16 (two years ago) link

Ferns and quiche was the cliche in 1970s America, and was equally d-u-m dumb, because both were used to mean effete wealth and both were solidly everywhere and enjoyed by everyone.

Three Word Username, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:18 (two years ago) link

I'm sure you hit at least ten examples of this whenever you read one of those John Harris columns when he leaves London in order to disparage people who "never leave London".

Matt DC, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:19 (two years ago) link

middle class conservatives who think they are liberals sneering at people who are almost always considerably less posh than themselves

more like dork enlightenment lol (Bananaman Begins), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:19 (two years ago) link

people in eg: opening pages of Guardian G2 do do this, actually

eg: 'this new product will appeal to croissant-munching Guardianistas, too'

the sense being -- affectionate self-mockery while also bonding themselves and their readers together into an identified group

maybe this is what Mark S meant?

the pinefox, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:19 (two years ago) link

I agree, it is the kind of thing John Harris does, also. From him, it comes across as quite aggressive and nasty.

So that is a good example.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:20 (two years ago) link

Never leaving London = bad

Never leaving your Lincolnshire market town = good, pls tell me more of your five point plan to put the Great back into Britain

more like dork enlightenment lol (Bananaman Begins), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:21 (two years ago) link

the guardian is like a perfect circle for this stuff. simultaneously trying to write articles for their london audience and placate the hordes of users who seem riled by the fact that there is a city with a lot of people in it.

xpost to matt.

bananaman otm too. many small towns are centres for abusive and violent behaviour.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:26 (two years ago) link

80% of the staff at right-wing newspapers are self-loathing liberals churning out cliches like this to order, you see it in the Telegraph and the Mail a lot.

My parents used to talk about brie and chardonnay filling this role in the past. The food in question is always soft, pale and a bit foreign.

Matt DC, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:35 (two years ago) link

"bruschetta-munching"
^^^largely associated with the iraq war, i think this was/is an islington-on-islington act of depravity (n!ck fkn cohen's endless fkn made-up dinner-parties)

"croissant-munching"
^^^the sun has switched from bruschetta to croissant BECAUSE THEY JUDGE THAT EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT A CROISSANT IS (bcz everyone munches em) thus proving localgarda's and my point

"latte-sipping"
^^^anti-liberal alliteration

mark s, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:37 (two years ago) link

comedy-marmalade conservatives

mark s, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:38 (two years ago) link

keep calm and comedy-marmalade conservatives

mark s, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:40 (two years ago) link

bring me the head of elizabeth david

mark s, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:41 (two years ago) link

I recall pejorative mention of Corbyn's vegetarian falafels before, which I'd imagine are a very nice side dish. And if Corbyn went shopping for fresh produce in my local (in the provinces) Asian supermarket, he wouldn't be found wanting for any ingredients and the only difference from N London would be the cheaper cost. I'd bet many right wing columnists who exhibit a certain type of shrill macho posturing are not fucking stupid enough to favour unhealthy "classic" junk food staples over healthier options.

Ed Miliband's populist fail when was looking at the bacon sarnie like it is a piece of dogshit in his hand was possibly another example of this? Although probably a big dose of dog whistle antisemitism in that Sun pic as well.

calzino, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:43 (two years ago) link

owen smith's cappuccino feints felt like the pinnacle of this at the time

lex pretend, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:44 (two years ago) link

the frequency with which falafel and houmous are cited as items of pretentious middle-class foods is very telling w/r/t the exclusion of immigrants and POC from the "working class" umbrella - only the white working class are real working class, it seems

lex pretend, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:45 (two years ago) link

is the brexiteer obsession with jam the flipside of this?

lex pretend, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:47 (two years ago) link

i read a lot of the food articles on the guardian and for my sins i sometimes end up reading the comments, there is some really vile small-mindedness there, and it's exactly like this - people raging about receipes with ethnic ingredients, like as if the idea of an ethnically diverse neighbourhood is some kind of snobbery in itself.

xpost

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:49 (two years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_wkO4hk07o

xpost

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:49 (two years ago) link

They also never contain meat, which is important. Corbyn's vegetarianism means he's isn't a real man's man, ditto E-Mili's bacon sandwich problems.

Matt DC, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:50 (two years ago) link

i didn't think the bacon sandwich photo was supposed to be showing ed's disdain for the common man's carcinogenic meat, i assumed it was bullying more in the vein of "lol look at this man's face he cannot rule us"

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:52 (two years ago) link

It was that as well.

I just thought "I bet there's an Orwell quote about this" and about ten seconds of Googling revealed this:

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist, and feminist in England. One day this summer I was riding through Letchworth when the bus stopped and two dreadful-looking old men got on to it. They were both about sixty, both very short, pink, and chubby, and both hatless. One of them was obscenely bald, the other had long grey hair bobbed in the Lloyd George style. They were dressed in pistachio-coloured shirts and khaki shorts into which their huge bottoms were crammed so tightly that you could study every dimple. Their appearance created a mild stir of horror on top of the bus. The man next to me, a commercial traveller I should say, glanced at me, at them, and back again at me, and murmured ‘Socialists’, as who should say, ‘Red Indians’. He was probably right — the I.L.P. were holding their summer school at Letchworth. But the point is that to him, as an ordinary man, a crank meant a Socialist and a Socialist meant a crank. Any Socialist, he probably felt, could be counted on to have something eccentric about him. And some such notion seems to exist even among Socialists themselves. For instance, I have here a prospectus from another summer school which states its terms per week and then asks me to say ‘whether my diet is ordinary or vegetarian’. They take it for granted, you see, that it is necessary to ask this question. This kind of thing is by itself sufficient to alienate plenty of decent people. And their instinct is perfectly sound, for the food-crank is by definition a person willing to cut himself off from human society in hopes of adding five years on to the life of his carcase; that is, a person but of touch with common humanity

Matt DC, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:55 (two years ago) link

"Fruit juice drinker"

Matt DC, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:58 (two years ago) link

you can put pretty much any banal activity into a format that makes it seem like something worthy of hatred, if you try hard enough.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 13:02 (two years ago) link

i dunno what bruschetta is, i guess i have to work harder at being the liberal elite i strive to be

ok for me the miliband sandwich issue has just sedimented out into several rival issues:

i: Ed is posh and this loathed the decent working man's food which showed on his face as he forced himself to eat it
ii: Ed is vegetarian and cannot abide meat like an Orwell-loathed crank which showed on his face as he forced himself to eat it
iii: Ed is Jewish and cannot abide bacon like some kind of muslim which showed on his face as he forced himself to eat it
iv: Ed looks weird when he puts food in his mouth and chews

I had always gone for (iv): this has been an education in the layered subtleties of media-class self-loathing

mark s, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 13:05 (two years ago) link

i feel like it was definitely iv, in its entirety. i'm dubious about it being any other.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 13:06 (two years ago) link

i didn't even know it was a bacon sandwich

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 13:07 (two years ago) link

you can put pretty much any banal activity into a format that makes it seem like something worthy of hatred, if you try hard enough.

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, November 29, 2016 1:02 PM (five minutes ago)

"mouth-breather"

emil.y, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 13:09 (two years ago) link

brexiteers and jam (aka "comedy marmalade") derives from the fact that jam is one of only a small number of popular foodstuffs that we don't need to import* to turn into a valued commodity that will bring the world's markets a-running

*however, as noted on the brexit thread: "UK farmers warn of Brexit-triggered labour crisis" = fruit and veg rotting in the fields unpicked
https://www.ft.com/content/7ceb876c-b58d-11e6-961e-a1acd97f622d

bcz the usual labourforce have noted (a) their pay packed will have dropped in value by c.20%, and (b) England is no longer a friendly place to come and do cheap useful seasonal labour in

mark s, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 13:09 (two years ago) link

can we pause to investigate whether or not in the very raising of this thread attacking tropes attacking tropes mark s is himself an example of a trope

i am obv in asking this performing a recognise trope attacking service and hiding behind any such accusation is not to be countenanced

identity politics rooted in tolkienism (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 13:10 (two years ago) link

Also, I recall the fact that it was a bacon sandwich being made a very big deal of at the time - bacon butty, sandwich of the people, Ed cannot eat it look at him look at him.

So basically I read it as mostly iv but with a reasonable dose of i and a tiny bit of iii for those who are looking for it.

emil.y, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 13:11 (two years ago) link

can we pause to investigate whether or not having smelt it deems himself may have dealt it

diary of a mod how's life (wins), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 13:19 (two years ago) link

iirc Orwell took shots at fruit juice on a number of other occasions also. really had a problem with the stuff

ah weird i never noticed the bacon part - i prob only came across this "story" via people's outrage about it on twitter so i missed whatever the tabloid's "point" was besides the photo.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 13:25 (two years ago) link

i had scrambled egg today and did not in any sense munch it

mark s, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 13:27 (two years ago) link

Miliband was otherised by the right wing press and some members of his own party for quite some time - "he looks weird", "he's a North London intellectual", "his father hated Britain", he was compared to the Child Catcher (an actual antisemitic caricature) by some dreadful Katie Hopkins-alike. The bacon sandwich can't be separated from all that.

Matt DC, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 13:27 (two years ago) link

*eyes widen*

mark s, Friday, 5 January 2018 13:46 (one year ago) link

(in fact it should be PLASTIC CUP LEVY)

mark s, Friday, 5 January 2018 13:46 (one year ago) link

*drops coffee cup*

remember the lmao (darraghmac), Friday, 5 January 2018 14:00 (one year ago) link

*it's styrofoam so nothing dramatic happens*

remember the lmao (darraghmac), Friday, 5 January 2018 14:00 (one year ago) link

the only acceptable working class soft drink is tea in a mug apparently. fuck that.

not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Friday, 5 January 2018 14:35 (one year ago) link

six months pass...

Guess Piers likes croissants and lattes.

To all demented anti-Trump haters already working themselves into a steaming rage about my new interview, here’s an idea: don’t watch it. Just put your sandals on, eat some lentils & smoke some waccy baccy. But don’t watch, it will only make you scweam & scweam until you’re sick. pic.twitter.com/RCD1Bo3uB9

— Piers Morgan (@piersmorgan) July 13, 2018

Dan Worsley, Saturday, 14 July 2018 18:07 (one year ago) link

Not sure what’s wrong with sandals or lentils.

devops mom (silby), Saturday, 14 July 2018 18:16 (one year ago) link

great thread

mark s, Saturday, 14 July 2018 18:19 (one year ago) link

not sure what's wrong with waccy baccy either tbh

Piers is waccy enough already

more like Toss, Ow amirite? (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 14 July 2018 19:19 (one year ago) link

he's never struck me as a downers man

Is there something to be said in this connection about the tradition of newspaper journalists getting very worked up because a celebrity has been found ... taking cocaine??!!?

Never changed username before (cardamon), Sunday, 15 July 2018 19:59 (one year ago) link

I find all this really interesting though. I was in the shop just now - all these demonised things, the hummus, kale, qinoa, lattes, organic, etc, etc, are all thoroughly standard. Everywhere. Cheap. Everyone buying them. And the food options in lowest common denominator beer and a burger pubs are all, you know, done up so as to include all this stuff.

Never changed username before (cardamon), Sunday, 15 July 2018 20:05 (one year ago) link

At some point in the 1980s quiche became the totem food that ultra-manly men claimed all unmanly men regaled themselves upon. Now it's just... quiche.

A is for (Aimless), Sunday, 15 July 2018 20:24 (one year ago) link

'The Botanist' chain of pubs and the status of prosecco must fit into this too.

Maybe the demonisation of the ____ munching, _____ swilling liberals is less to do with their supposedly luxurious tastes (as the accuser implies or want us to think) and more to do with how normal they are, how on-trend? They only have liberal opinions because it's fashionable, see, just like lattes and hummus are fashionable?

Never changed username before (cardamon), Sunday, 15 July 2018 20:32 (one year ago) link

Morgan has always acted about 20 years older than he really is. It's strange.

shaqiri tip (nashwan), Sunday, 15 July 2018 20:33 (one year ago) link

there has been a bit of a Kale backlash in recent times and I'm a bit of a fan tbh, although I did lol the other day when some bitchy celeb-chef type dismissed it as "basic winter food for cows".

calzino, Sunday, 15 July 2018 21:17 (one year ago) link

Kale was extremely old-fashioned and unpopular just two decades ago.

A is for (Aimless), Sunday, 15 July 2018 21:36 (one year ago) link

their supposedly luxurious tastes (as the accuser implies or want us to think)

Note that they never refer to something actually luxurious, e.g. "liberal elites driving BMWs to their ski vacations". Not that I fully understand this rhetorical move but it seems to depend on some sort of David Brooks worldview where class differences have more to do with cultural refinement/sophistication/snobbery than actual wealth - the latter of which might actually be a sign of being in touch with the interests and concerns of the common man. In the last round of debates for the Conservative Party leadership in Canada, one Canada said something dismissive of economists like "when have you seen a wealthy economist? They're sitting in ivory towers, sipping on tea and coffee [latte?], instead of making money."

No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Sunday, 15 July 2018 23:45 (one year ago) link

how many Canadas you got anyhow

devops mom (silby), Sunday, 15 July 2018 23:58 (one year ago) link

Ha, candidate, sorry. Too much wine.

No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Monday, 16 July 2018 00:10 (one year ago) link

Sipped a Pinot Noir like the elitist I am.

No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Monday, 16 July 2018 00:11 (one year ago) link

Note that they never refer to something actually luxurious, e.g. "liberal elites driving BMWs to their ski vacations"

Ahhhhhh yes this feels like a key point. Because that would bring questions of wealth into play.

Never changed username before (cardamon), Monday, 16 July 2018 21:00 (one year ago) link

ctrl-f "avocado toast"

aloha darkness my old friend (katherine), Tuesday, 17 July 2018 14:17 (one year ago) link

^^what I ate for lunch

No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Tuesday, 17 July 2018 17:55 (one year ago) link

Never seen them going more than about a quid

Never changed username before (cardamon), Tuesday, 17 July 2018 20:25 (one year ago) link

i haven't read this yet but judging by reviews and the author's twitter it's the book of the thread:

https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/e76fb582-cde2-496e-b7e1-469f4952f149_1.f66c6e3fe6ea02688066ae5108109eaa.jpeg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF

mark s, Sunday, 22 July 2018 12:05 (one year ago) link

omg that cover

Chase Knobbe? Have you Courtney Cox? (Tom D.), Sunday, 22 July 2018 12:20 (one year ago) link

my first thought was: Is that Berkoff in the middle. But as a cover design it is some ugly, lazy shit!

calzino, Sunday, 22 July 2018 12:24 (one year ago) link

the book looks good but yes they shd have gone with the wall of gammon (crepey meatstuffs remix)

mark s, Sunday, 22 July 2018 12:40 (one year ago) link

A chapter on The Dialectics of Banter revisits the sitcoms of the 1990s, characterising their mandated wackiness as a kind of “inverted sententiousness”, and noting that a similar sense of performative proletarian iconoclasm also informed the works of Young British Artists such as Tracey Emin and Damien Hirst.

might check it out, he said in a preformative prole voice!

calzino, Sunday, 22 July 2018 12:48 (one year ago) link

i mean that's a p terrible read of most of hirst's OR emin's work

mark s, Sunday, 22 July 2018 12:54 (one year ago) link

Got involved in a convo with him a few months ago and I think he either posted or lurked on ilx 10+ years ago.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 22 July 2018 12:58 (one year ago) link

yes not their *work, but not on how they presented themselves to the media, but it would be a more appropriate description of Sarah Lucas' work, perhaps.

* or absolute fucking garbage, as I'd call it!

calzino, Sunday, 22 July 2018 12:58 (one year ago) link

TS: wall of gammon vs wallogina

||||||||, Sunday, 22 July 2018 13:06 (one year ago) link

xyzzzz__: yes i'm p sure he's a one-time denizen of dissensus, he's buds with all the right types

mark s, Sunday, 22 July 2018 13:10 (one year ago) link

(lol that came across more snidey than intended)

mark s, Sunday, 22 July 2018 13:14 (one year ago) link

lol he didn't seem to like ilx very much. Very much one of the K-Punk (blog-era) lot, I think.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 22 July 2018 13:57 (one year ago) link

tbf the secret motto of dissensus was "butthurt about ilx"

mark s, Sunday, 22 July 2018 14:01 (one year ago) link

yup.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 22 July 2018 14:32 (one year ago) link

three months pass...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/31/global-britain-can-exist-immigration-time-conservatives-relearnt/

"It’s time to face facts: liberals have lost the battle on immigration. Despite our self-assuring groupthink, where we gather around our almond-milk lattes and grumble about the backlash to our treasured freedom of movement, it’s becoming increasingly clear that most of the country thinks we’re badly out of touch. It appears as though we, in our metropolitan hubs, haven’t clocked the wider effects of immigration on working class people and on individual communities."

Alma Kirby (Tom D.), Wednesday, 31 October 2018 17:50 (eleven months ago) link

a series of comment pieces by young people, for young people, to provide a free-market response to Britain's biggest issues


a series of comment pieces by young tories, for the sir bufton-tufton set, to provide reassurance that those affected by britain’s actual biggest issues won’t drag them from their homes and put their heads on pikes

la bébé du nom-nom (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 31 October 2018 18:37 (eleven months ago) link

One of them's by Liz Truss, 43.

Alma Kirby (Tom D.), Wednesday, 31 October 2018 19:12 (eleven months ago) link

individual communities under the sea

nashwan, Wednesday, 31 October 2018 19:28 (eleven months ago) link

three months pass...

i'm not the world's biggest atrios fan (and was thinking UK-wards when i started the thread) but this:

centrist pundit: elitist liberals and their starbucks-going latte-swilling ways will never play in real america

also centrist pundit: what real americans in the heartland want is the billionaire guy who made starbucks

— Atrios (@Atrios) January 31, 2019

mark s, Thursday, 31 January 2019 18:30 (eight months ago) link

Tbf does anyone actually support Schultz’s presidential bid?

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 1 February 2019 02:12 (eight months ago) link

centrist pundits iirc

|Restore| |Restart| |Quit| (Doctor Casino), Friday, 1 February 2019 02:53 (eight months ago) link

eight months pass...

"a journey"

mark s, Saturday, 5 October 2019 15:03 (one week ago) link

Presumably John Harris is stuck in Stoke.

Dan Worsley, Saturday, 5 October 2019 15:06 (one week ago) link


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