We've had a couple of DS9 threads before, but they were mostly about specific characters, so I think the the series deserves one of its own. And since it's been recently added to Netflix outside the US too, I think it'd be nice to discuss it with people who are watching it for the first time, or rewatching it like I'm doing at the moment.
And since this thread should be friendly to new viewers, let's try avoid spoilers if possible, and mark any posts with spoiler with an appropriate warning. I think it's okay to mention names like the Dominion or Pah-Wraiths, but please don't discuss any twists and revelations about them without a spoiler warning.
― Tuomas, Monday, 14 November 2016 11:19 (five years ago) link
I'm in the middle of rewatching the first season, and since I remembered it being as poor in quality as the first TNG season, I've been a bit surprised that there are actually several episodes that are quite good or even classic (besides "Duet", who's classicness is widely accepted). "Past Prologue", the second episode (third episode in Netflix, since they use the production order rather than the airing order) is already very good and touches several of the themes that will become unique to DS9.
OTOH, you also have eps like "Babel", which are okay but feel more like rewritten TNG scripts... Maybe that's why the first season feels so spotty, because it has more TNG-style, continuity-free episodes than the later seasons, where the big plot arcs start to roll.
― Tuomas, Monday, 14 November 2016 11:27 (five years ago) link
The "weird space phenomenon of the week" type of plots work in TNG, but I don't think DS9 finds its own flavour until it de-emphasizes those in favour of galactic politics and intrigue.
― Tuomas, Monday, 14 November 2016 11:33 (five years ago) link
I do not accept the classicness of "Duet"!
― Pean-Juc Leeecard (Leee), Monday, 14 November 2016 15:18 (five years ago) link
Like, maybe I'm showing my ignorance of WWII history, but I can't imagine that
an accomplice to genocide would be so wracked by guilt that he'd go to such radical lengths to force a war-crimes reckoning -- seemed like precisely the moral corrective that victims of genocide / retrospective capital-H History would fantasize about.
― Pean-Juc Leeecard (Leee), Monday, 14 November 2016 15:25 (five years ago) link
If that episode was in a realistic WWII series, I would tend to agree, but this is Star Trek! It's an allegory, a moral fable, and I think it works very well as such.
― Tuomas, Monday, 14 November 2016 17:02 (five years ago) link
I mean, one of the main themes of the entire franchise is that our better nature can in the end overcome all the horrible things we've done. I wouldn't want a ST that's cynical in that regard, that's for some other sci-fi series to do.
― Tuomas, Monday, 14 November 2016 17:06 (five years ago) link
I love watch Jake grow up over the first few seasons. He's so young at the start! Brooks has discussed it before, but he had a real bond with Cirroc Lofton and it really shows as their relationship develops.
― Jeff, Monday, 14 November 2016 17:08 (five years ago) link
I wouldn't want a ST that's cynical in that regard, that's for some other sci-fi series to do.
That's what DS9 turns into in the 6th and 7th seasons though, no?
― Pean-Juc Leeecard (Leee), Monday, 14 November 2016 17:39 (five years ago) link
Maybe for some stretches, but in the end not really, because......(WARNING! SPOILERS FOR DS9'S FINALE WILL FOLLOW!)......the whole series ends with the rather optimistic and Star Trekkian idea that the Dominion can be reasoned with, that they can learn to understand solids and eventually change their oppressive ways.
― Tuomas, Monday, 14 November 2016 21:29 (five years ago) link
I just rewatched the 1st season episode "Battle Lines", and I hadn't realised before that Jonathan Banks (aka Mike from Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul) has a major role in it! He plays the leader of the Ennis, one of the two warring factions the protagonists come across. And he conveys a similar cynical and bitter amusement as he does with Mike, I guess that's really his forte. Perfect casting!
― Tuomas, Monday, 14 November 2016 21:34 (five years ago) link
Watching the pilot. Sisko explaining the dictionary to dimwitted transcendental beings is hard going.
― quis gropes ipsos gropiuses? (ledge), Monday, 14 November 2016 22:23 (five years ago) link
Yeah, I always found that bit tedious too, and it didn't feel very credible either: if the wormhole aliens don't understand certain concepts because of their non-linear existence, how is explaining them with different words gonna help?
That said, the payoff to that scene ("then why do you exist here?) is still pretty great and moving.
― Tuomas, Monday, 14 November 2016 22:33 (five years ago) link
idk because language is multivalent and certain words/phrases might get routed differently through the universal translator
― mh 😏, Monday, 14 November 2016 22:41 (five years ago) link
Goddamn it I still have to finish my TNG rewatch don't start this thread now :)
― Chuck_Tatum, Monday, 14 November 2016 23:04 (five years ago) link
To me that scene felt like the wormhole aliens were communicating to Sisko directly via telepathy, so the universal translator wasn't involved. Presumably the aliens' language is so different from humanoid ones that the UT can't even process it.
― Tuomas, Tuesday, 15 November 2016 12:46 (five years ago) link
oh yeah, I forgot all their interactions take place in mental dream time
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 15 November 2016 14:54 (five years ago) link
Yeah. Also, for some inexplicable reason the aliens only want to talk to Sisko, while they immediately send Dax away from the wormhole. I guess they're afraid of cooties?
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 16 November 2016 07:23 (five years ago) link
Just a couple of episodes in but to my surprise I am enjoying not hating the low budget soap opera feel.
― quis gropes ipsos gropiuses? (ledge), Wednesday, 16 November 2016 09:04 (five years ago) link
I think DS9 actually had a reasonably large budget for its era, with the virtue of being a Star Trek show. Certainly most the effects still look pretty good, especially when you compare them to a lower-budget show like Babylon 5, whose CGI would nowadays look crappy even in a budget video game.
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 16 November 2016 10:47 (five years ago) link
The big exception I guess is Odo's morphing, which does look silly, but I think those effects were state-of-the-art back then. And you can see budget cuts the show took later on from the fact that in later seasons Odo often doesn't morph even when it would make sense him to do so, or he morphs offscreen.
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 16 November 2016 10:49 (five years ago) link
Ok low stakes rather than low budget - Keiko becoming a schoolteacher is hardly JR getting shot. I know, there's plenty of high stakes galactic political intrigue to come.
― quis gropes ipsos gropiuses? (ledge), Wednesday, 16 November 2016 13:25 (five years ago) link
Ok, I get what you mean, and I myself like these low stakes stories too. DS9 has a great ensemble cast, and I like how they, unlike TNG, often build the drama on personal interaction and avoid the Weird Space Threat of the Week altogether. Plus the lower stakes make sense considering the stable setting. With the Enterprise, they can sorta justify meeting things that endanger the ship or some random planet every week, because they're constantly on the move, but it'd feel ridiculous if Bajor was constantly under some new, previously unheard of cosmic threat.
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 16 November 2016 13:43 (five years ago) link
The low-stakes stories don't happen till much later in the series IMO, because nearly every episode in the first couple season strike me as having an existential threat shoe-horned into it (see that one where Dax is hazing a Trill would-be initiate and accidentally breaks space-time).
― Meighton Leeester (Leee), Wednesday, 16 November 2016 18:54 (five years ago) link
I just rewatched "Progress", which is an excellent example of a first season episode with low stakes. (Okay, if Mullibok stays on the moon he will die, but it's obvious they'll beam him up against his will before letting that happen, so the whole point of the episode is really just the moral dilemma his stubborness causes Kira to face.) But you're right that they do become more prominent in later seasons, when the writers are more comfortable in not following the narrative traditions of earlier ST series.
― Tuomas, Thursday, 17 November 2016 08:14 (five years ago) link
Trying to do this properly and not skip any but I'm in the middle of the first season slump and things are only going to get worse:
Deep Space Nine is put in jeopardy when the crew's thoughts manifest themselves, and such figures as Rumpelstiltskin appear.
The Federation ambassador from Betazed, Lwaxana Troi, visits the station, and develops an affection for Odo.
Can't I skip them? Pleeease?
― quis gropes ipsos gropiuses? (ledge), Monday, 21 November 2016 20:26 (five years ago) link
It's all part of a rich tapestry, ledge
You cld comfortably skip ahead to the first episode w/ the Jem'Hadar, tbh
― Darcy Sarto (Ward Fowler), Monday, 21 November 2016 20:38 (five years ago) link
you can skip the rest of the first season except for Progress and Duet imo
i wouldn't skip much in season 2, there's some fun throwaway episodes there
― ciderpress, Monday, 21 November 2016 20:46 (five years ago) link
Those are both good episodes! You do have to have a taste for camp, though.
― Meighton Leeester (Leee), Monday, 21 November 2016 21:16 (five years ago) link
The Rumpelstiltskin episode is skippable (it's pretty much a TNG style "weird space phenomenon of the week" story with no larger importance), but I wouldn't skip the Lwaxana episode. It ends up subverting our expectations of the character, and Majel Barrett is wonderful while doing that. Plus it has some important character revelations about Odo. The Lwaxana eps in DS9 (there's a couple of more to follow) in general are better than her TNG episodes, because they treat her less like a joke.
And you definitely shouldn't skip to the first Jem'Hadar episode! In the second season the quality of writing gets better, and the opening three-parter has some very important plot development w/r/t Bajoran politics that will resonate right until the end of the series.
― Tuomas, Tuesday, 22 November 2016 08:17 (five years ago) link
I wouldn't skip the Lwaxana episode
Progress was ok, critical character development for Kira, that guy was a dick though.
The Storyteller prob the worst I've seen so far. Fatuous group psychology + ludicrous deus ex machina.
― quis gropes ipsos gropiuses? (ledge), Tuesday, 22 November 2016 13:12 (five years ago) link
Yeah, The Storyteller's A plot is probably the worst in the entire series, except for "Profit and Lace".
― Tuomas, Tuesday, 22 November 2016 15:25 (five years ago) link
WARNING! SPOILERS ABOUT "PROGRESS"!...I love how "Progress" subverts the viewer's expectation of what sort of a story it's gonna be, i.e. your typical "the underdog is always right" tale where were supposed to root for this one stubborn guy and forgot about the utilitarian alternative, and instead it turns into a lesson for Kira that sometimes siding with The Man is the right thing to do....
― Tuomas, Tuesday, 22 November 2016 15:35 (five years ago) link
I love how Quark's life is saved when he bends over to pick up a nickel.
― schwantz, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 04:20 (five years ago) link
I second that emotion!
― quis gropes ipsos gropiuses? (ledge), Monday, 28 November 2016 08:59 (five years ago) link
Can you elaborate?
― Tuomas, Monday, 28 November 2016 10:15 (five years ago) link
i like Duet but agree that it is pretty contrived
― ciderpress, Monday, 28 November 2016 12:17 (five years ago) link
I like Duet, too. It may be contrived, but it's far and away one of the strongest episodes of the first couple seasons.
I actually had to think about which episode it was, since I always confuse it with Waltz. (Mentally filed under "heavy episodes where two characters square off moralizing against each other.")
― Millsner, Monday, 28 November 2016 12:52 (five years ago) link
Contrived and hammy. I liked the camp survivors standing round all dressed in rags to elicit maximum sympathy.
― the year of diving languorously (ledge), Monday, 28 November 2016 12:59 (five years ago) link
Kira and Dax notwithstanding this show is being hella sexist right now. Sisko and O'Brien land on a planet and find some earth people marooned there for ten years. One guy says 'I used to be an engineer!', another guy says 'who won the soccer?', a woman steps forward and says 'what are the latest fashions?' smdh. And don't get me started on the Ferengi, a bit of light comic relief from a species who oppress their women in the most contemptible fashion.
That episode with the marooned dude was pretty good though, until the final insulting two minutes.
― the year of diving languorously (ledge), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 13:34 (five years ago) link
trek gotta trek
i enjoyed the 3-parter opening season 2. that evil religious lady is a good villain!
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 14:47 (five years ago) link
I think the Lwaxana episodes are good curatives to the usual Trek sexism, IIRC.
― Bianca Smell BO (Leee), Thursday, 15 December 2016 01:11 (five years ago) link
on the recommendation of the ILE tastemaking consensus and because I am into day five of being sick as a goddamn dog, I've now set my sights on climbing this mountain of a show. Damn but it is a lot of episodes. I'm about 8 deep into S1 and it strikes me as mostly ok trek, if a little boring. I barely remember watching it during it's orginal run, and couldn't have stuck with it for more than part of S1 and a few into S2 or 3. I find it the kind of show I can watch with my eyes closed. As long as I have the dialogue I can fill in the rest. So far I'm liking Quark mostly because he gets picked on way too much. Kira yells 100% of her dialogue and Dax is to date perhaps the most boring trek character ever created. I'm sure I'll see things change. Anyway, I'm in.
― great Canadian prog-psych debut from 1969 (Sparkle Motion), Friday, 16 December 2016 01:34 (five years ago) link
Lwaxana episodes are getting better and better, carrying over from TNG (outside that ghastly drowning kid one). it quite enjoyed seeing her paired with Odo, it's kind of a perfect match, and their little adventure together was very endearing and sweet.
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 16 December 2016 14:49 (five years ago) link
i recall one bad lwaxana episode that was one of the worst of the series but the other couple she's in are fine
― ciderpress, Friday, 16 December 2016 14:51 (five years ago) link
11/28/1994. Fascination — A mysterious virus causes the DS9 characters to begin falling in love with each other on sight.
this was the bad one iirc
― ciderpress, Friday, 16 December 2016 14:53 (five years ago) link
good god that's going to be a terrible episode on any version of Trek, save the TOS, where it would be hilarious
― great Canadian prog-psych debut from 1969 (Sparkle Motion), Friday, 16 December 2016 15:43 (five years ago) link
Kinda surprised if it wasn't used in TOS already, TNG had "The Naked Now" right?
― Nhex, Friday, 16 December 2016 18:09 (five years ago) link
I've just seen 'the captain (commander) falls in love with a ghost', that was pretty bad
― the year of diving languorously (ledge), Friday, 16 December 2016 20:00 (five years ago) link
I don't really know what Dax is or does still
There's behind the scenes stuff that kind of explains Dax's fuzziness, namely that the original scope for the character was to be a mentor figure dripping with gravitas, but Terry Farrell, being relatively new to acting, said she felt she couldn't pull it off, which sent Dax into a limbo until they settled on Action Barbie (her term) and party girl.
My beef with STP isn't its narrative slowness so much as its patchy and flimsy world-building, which is an area in which DS9 is unrivaled among the other Trek properties.
Other things that I love are Sisko and Jake's unbridled affection for each other, Garak, Kira yelling at people.
― Triceratops Vowell (Leee), Monday, 6 April 2020 18:18 (one year ago) link
― DJI, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 22:48 (one year ago) link
The time-traveling San Francisco episodes are overly too prescient and I hope they're not quite our world. They're much closer than I think the writers ever intended!
― mh, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 23:15 (one year ago) link
If Jeff Bezos wants to justify some of his zillions, he should fund the HD-ing of DS9.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Wednesday, 27 May 2020 00:58 (one year ago) link
just read (parts of) the 'star trek - the second 25 years' and lol
it's essentially just endless bitching by writers, most of whom were fired, complaining that they 'couldn't tell stories' because of roddenberry or berman or braga or the network. i mean it doesn't even *mention* that two ds9 actors had a baby during the show's run.
the exception is behr, who went ham at the end of ds9 (and will not shut up about it)
berman comes across as a dick, but at least a self-aware and superficially diplomatic one. except for 'it's so difficult to find beautiful young women who can actually act.' maurice hurley didn't even bother with that.
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 27 May 2020 01:07 (one year ago) link
also everyone absolutely loves the bakula
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 27 May 2020 01:10 (one year ago) link
I’ve gotten up to the early 3rd season in this, and it’s definitely coming together a bit more. I agree with a lot of mookieproof’s criticisms, there were a number of season 2 episodes that created interesting and difficult problems and then came up with ridiculous resolutions. (Sending a rapidly expanding mini-universe...somewhere else, Garak just killing a Cardassian officer with zero consequences, etc.)
I loved the episode with Garak’s malfunctioning implant. Really liked O’Brien living out The Trial and Kira getting turned into a Cardassian. Mirror dimension was fun, the whole cast seemed to be having a great time, especially Brooks. Still find Dax pretty boring, and Kira’s love interest is such a drag.
― JoeStork, Friday, 25 September 2020 02:28 (one year ago) link
that is not the *least* of the shit o'brien 'lives out' (you'll know it when you get there)
and yeah if you like it so far it basically only gets better!
― mookieproof, Friday, 25 September 2020 02:56 (one year ago) link
Standing by my offer to take Bezos off the guillotine list if he paid for a 4K DS9 remaster.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Friday, 25 September 2020 03:05 (one year ago) link
you need to ask for more
― mookieproof, Friday, 25 September 2020 03:06 (one year ago) link
He still has to go to the reeducation camp.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Friday, 25 September 2020 04:19 (one year ago) link
can't tell if you're stupid or just not funny
let us know if you figure it out
― mookieproof, Friday, 25 September 2020 04:27 (one year ago) link
gutted, just gutted
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Friday, 25 September 2020 04:33 (one year ago) link
oof, sorry. that was lame and uncalled for by me -- apologies
― mookieproof, Friday, 25 September 2020 17:28 (one year ago) link
Whomst among us has not...
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Friday, 25 September 2020 17:36 (one year ago) link
Watched the documentary on the show which I thought was very good. Check it out if you have the chance
― Glower, Disruption & Pies (kingfish), Friday, 25 September 2020 18:06 (one year ago) link
Full yet incidental series spoilers but amusing: https://youtu.be/bQPB5xzxlQQ
― Kaliningrad Oberst (Leee), Saturday, 26 September 2020 05:45 (one year ago) link
is ezri dax a manic pixie dream girl y/n
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 5 January 2021 04:08 (one year ago) link
besides the haircut? nah
― Nhex, Tuesday, 5 January 2021 04:09 (one year ago) link
yes and no yes outwardly v pixie dream girlno bc inwardly = old manmanic pixie dream girl old man
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 5 January 2021 04:10 (one year ago) link
i think the inner old man only really emerged when convenient, as with the *insanely* over-the-top joran manifestation or when prodding worf. which is fine
that said i think she and they did a pretty great job with her character
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 5 January 2021 04:18 (one year ago) link
tbf an aspect of mpdg is always ~unknown knowledge~ but hedged behind a social anxiety that makes them accessible to dorks
― mh, Tuesday, 5 January 2021 04:47 (one year ago) link
as i'm rewatching S07 after like a year and a half it seems i too want to live in the holosuite
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 5 January 2021 04:48 (one year ago) link
the inherent thing isn’t “wow I can introduce this girl to things only I know” but “this girl has the secret keys to fixing my internal problems” so she’s definitely mpdg
― mh, Tuesday, 5 January 2021 04:49 (one year ago) link
so say we all xpost
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 5 January 2021 04:49 (one year ago) link
xp you and Nog just chilling in there
― mh, Tuesday, 5 January 2021 04:50 (one year ago) link
I've decided the only way I'll get through this series is by turning my internet-browsing procrastination into DS9 procrastination for a couple of months. Just watched the pilot. It's pretty charming, tantalising setup for all the political stuff, likably stupid but not-TNG-season 1-stupid, and some of the dialogue is... quite good? I think I will split the diff between these two watchlists.
― Chuck_Tatum, Friday, 19 March 2021 10:52 (ten months ago) link
I've seen the pilot three times, when it first came out, for previous failed rewatch sometime in the past decade, and yesterday. The only things I ever remember are the shot of Sisko in the escape pod at the start, Sisko's swimsuit, and the "OW!".
― Chuck_Tatum, Friday, 19 March 2021 11:00 (ten months ago) link
yeah i just rewatched emissary again the other day and that shot from the pov of the escape pod is stunning
― clouds, Saturday, 20 March 2021 21:57 (ten months ago) link
For a bad first season, this is a pretty great first season, so I’m excited about when this actually gets good.
I have a watchlist of which episodes to skip, but after watching ”Progress” (moving!) and an actually enjoyable Lwaxana episode (!), neither of which were on the list, I’m thinking I might as well watch the whole lot.
― Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 7 April 2021 22:43 (nine months ago) link
i really thought the first season was not bad, although it absolutely does get better. a better first season than TNG imo (I just did the TNG rewatch, i prefer it slightly to DS9 overall but it's fairly close for me).
― 《Myst1kOblivi0n》 (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 22:53 (nine months ago) link
I'll go to bat for DS9's first season, even "Move Along Home!" And DS9's Lwaxana episodes put her TNG episodes to shame, because in the latter, she's basically a "LOL old harridan" but DS9 gives her emotional depth and shading.
I will only recommend one episode to categorically skip, that being "Profit & Lace" i.e. the trans-Quark lol emotional wimmin episode, which is irredeemably awful and objectionable.
― Ovid-19 (Leee), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 23:09 (nine months ago) link
Ok I have to watch that now. Move Along Home was very silly but not unenjoyable, so miles better than early TNG nonsense. Basically almost every one of the main ensemble is a fun character actor, so it’s enjoyable watching them even when the stories r dumb.
― Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 7 April 2021 23:20 (nine months ago) link
Oh no what have I done.
― Ovid-19 (Leee), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 23:52 (nine months ago) link
haha profit & lace was the only episode i skipped when i watched the series -- hadn't even heard anything about it, just saw the preview and thought 'that sounds terrible'
― mookieproof, Thursday, 8 April 2021 00:14 (nine months ago) link
yeah i wouldn't skip anything in DS9, there's a couple stinkers each season but those watch guides throw away tons of good ones just because they're lower stakes or whatever
― ciderpress, Thursday, 8 April 2021 00:25 (nine months ago) link
Out of morbid curiosity, I checked https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Profit_and_Lace_(episode)#Reception, which has this delightful nugget:
This episode received Star Trek 101's "Spock's Brain" Award for Worst Episode of Deep Space Nine.
― Ovid-19 (Leee), Thursday, 8 April 2021 00:33 (nine months ago) link
my main complaint about the early seasons is that they wouldn't let sisko shave his head
― mookieproof, Thursday, 8 April 2021 00:51 (nine months ago) link
Ok maybe I’ll skip it. Or... https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/d/d9/Quark_as_Lumba.jpg
― Chuck_Tatum, Thursday, 8 April 2021 09:20 (nine months ago) link
― mookieproof, Friday, 11 June 2021 01:46 (seven months ago) link
Whats this from? Orville?
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 11 June 2021 01:57 (seven months ago) link
‘the making of star trek deep space nine’ by judith and garfield reeves-stevens
― mookieproof, Friday, 11 June 2021 02:58 (seven months ago) link
I was just confused by all the non-ST refs there lol.
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 11 June 2021 03:34 (seven months ago) link
I named a piece of software “emissary” recently and the icon is Sisko, lol
― mh, Friday, 11 June 2021 16:41 (seven months ago) link
― 《Myst1kOblivi0n》 (jim in vancouver), Saturday, 12 June 2021 00:00 (seven months ago) link
prune juice: a warrior's drink
― mookieproof, Thursday, 15 July 2021 03:34 (six months ago) link
just watched the ep where they accidentally set off the station's panic mode left by the cardassians and omg it's so good, you learn more about garak in like 10 seconds than he'd revealed in the entire show up to that point, had to have been such a gag when it came out
― clouds, Thursday, 22 July 2021 14:18 (five months ago) link
https://t.co/4kPK1NYbPA is saddened to learn of the passing of Camille Saviola. Camille made her mark on the Star Trek Universe as the incredible Kai Opaka. She will be greatly missed. pic.twitter.com/TTgDmdYJIp— Star Trek (@StarTrek) October 29, 2021
― mookieproof, Friday, 29 October 2021 18:34 (two months ago) link
Never noticed that Garak is the guy from Hellraiser (and many other things, as noted elsewhere on these boards.)
― feed me with your clicks (Noel Emits), Friday, 14 January 2022 19:40 (one week ago) link
yeah he’s a great character actor! i love when he pops up in old shows. my personal fave is his “zodiac but not” killer in Dirty Harry
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 14 January 2022 20:46 (one week ago) link