Thread of What Is Fascism And Is Donald Trump A Fascist

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here you go guys

tremendous crime wave and killing wave (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 10:47 (five years ago) link

good question!

literally fasciscm was a political movement/totalitarian ideology but I guess most people use the word metaphorically now, not unlike how nazism is used (though I guess a few people identify as nazis but hardly any consider thmselves fascists)

niels, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 11:00 (five years ago) link

Donald Trump is not a Fascist, a truth so obvious as to be worth the clusterfuck that's about to ensue

Coombesbat 18 (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 11:42 (five years ago) link

he is far-right
he has a hate campaign against members of a religious group that he sees as enemies of america
he is pro-war

but
besides being a birther he seems to be ok with democracy

i'm not an expert on this stuff but i think fascism was thought of as a reaction against both democracy and communism, which just seems idiotic now. so no, trump is not a fascist. yet.

aaaaablnnn (abanana), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 12:52 (five years ago) link

he seems to be ok with democracy

imo Trump does not actually have a coherent ideology (whereas most memorable fascists adhered very closely to the ideology in which they explicitly believed, the ideology of fascism), but I'd be comfortable classifying him as a berzerker fascist because he says shit that's right in line with fascist governance -- national registry of Muslims, closing mosques, his obsession with national strength & power -- not security and robust health, but "beat the other guy" strength. so, in the imaginary world where he gets elected, he might well govern like a fascist, and he's certainly said plenty of fascist things.

but he probably couldn't, himself, provide any definition whatsoever of fascism. a fascist, however wrongheadedly, believes he is doing good for his nation. Trump's pathology is messier.

OTOH it's really fine to call him a fascist because calling assholes fascists is a time-honored tradition and we're not all fedora-sporting EXCUSE ME THAT'S NOT WHAT THE WORD MEANS bores

tremendous crime wave and killing wave (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 14:03 (five years ago) link

boomin' post

skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 14:04 (five years ago) link

was Mussolini an asshole though?

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 14:05 (five years ago) link

Guessing this has already been linked elsewhere: http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/12/10/9886152/donald-trump-fascism

xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 14:17 (five years ago) link

Donald Trump has been endorsed by Stormfront's Don Black and by David Duke.

I'd be more concerned with Trump's supporters, who seem comfortable with fascist ideas and who would benefit from fascist policies.

Fake Sam's Club (I M Losted), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 14:52 (five years ago) link

Not that I think we are in danger of a fascist government, but the "Patriot" movement is fascist.

Fake Sam's Club (I M Losted), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 15:04 (five years ago) link

i like the distinction made in that vox article. for example there are numerous problematic governments + parties that don't deserve the fascist label like apartheid south africa which was a repressive, draconian, racist regime, but not really a fascist one. ppl calling their political opponents (on either side of the aisle) fascists has a long history but it kinda flattens the meaning of things. is trump a risk for inflaming racist violence? yes. would POTUS trump be a risk for shutting down the other 2 branches of govt and concentrating all State power into his hands? i don't think so, and there's no indication that's his plan. by contrast, hitler in 1923 was already trying to coup the government (which is to say that despite his later participation in the democratic german process his intentions to disassemble said democracy was present from the very beginning. even Stormfront racists are not necessarily fascist - bc if the word is to mean anything besides "political/ideological pov with whom i disagree" it needs to mean a particular political program. said program might include horrific racism, but that's not the trademark. also it's not like the left has a monopoly on misusing the term cf jonah goldberg's "liberal fascism" book.

thank u for starting this thread, mr. loves chachi.

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 15:04 (five years ago) link

also in a more general sense i'm v wary of flattening / histrionic language. it seems like inflammatory accusations (in various political arenas) are designed to inflame the passions of yr ideological cohorts more than make a sensible argument. but surely if trump deserves to be shunned + marginalized it's not bc he maybe fits some of the definitions of the word 'fascism,' but bc he has done and said actually terrible things. why add the extra step? a. trump said disgusting racist thing. b. we should shun him for that. why do we need to squeeze "therefore he's a fascist," in between? iirc slatestarcodex has written about how categorical language is used to collapse distinctions in the listeners' mind. really the use of fascism as a term of condemnation is a syllogism - x is a fascist; fascism is wrong (why? bc fascist european govts did disgusting things); therefore X is wrong. but if X is wrong on its own merits then it's unnecessary to compare X to Hitler or whomever is the stand-in in this argument for "we all agree he is evil and therefore anyone like him is also evil."

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 15:10 (five years ago) link

not a fascist. a poster child for why we need steep inheritance, income, and capital gains taxes. smug incurious privileged bullies like DT have way too much sway in our neo-feudal system

reggie (qualmsley), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 15:15 (five years ago) link

if anything the kind of robber baron demagoguery that Trump specializes is more unappealing than Fascism but i like the distinction because broadly speaking Fascists are team players (assuming you're on their team) where is Trump is a piggy-eyed leech who doesn't give a fuck about anything beyond his own gratification. even his Team America shtick is half a front and half his own wet dreams

Coombesbat 18 (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 15:29 (five years ago) link

also he's absolutely a product of American capitalism not a reaction against it

Coombesbat 18 (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 15:30 (five years ago) link

i'd be fine if a bunch of major media outlets wanted to run with the idea that trump is a fascist. who cares, nothing is sacred in that arena anyway. i got over the fact that obama was a 'socialist.' by the time the 'real fascists' arrive it's probably not going to matter much what we call them anyway

rap is dad (it's a boy!), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 15:37 (five years ago) link

something that came up on the other thread is whether his desire to ban muslims (non-citizens?) from entering the US, and deporting 10 million undocumented immigrants, is an example of the obsession fascism has with cleansing but i'm not even sure if that's true. sure you could describe it as a cleansing but i don't think that trump thinks that mexicans or muslims are an inherent evil (and certainly not in the way Hitler felt about Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, etc). like this distinction is very subtle but he wants to keep muslims out of the country bc of worldwide islamic radicalism and he wants to deport 10 million undocumented immigrants bc they broke the law being in this country. both of those decisions are toxic and their implementation would lead to horrific violations of human rights. but both of those motivations are within the realm of rationality - there is radical islam in the world and there are a number of undocumented immigrants in this country. his solution to those problems is terrible but they are real problems. by contrast when we talk about fascist cleansing i think we mean an attempt to cleanse the population of the Other entirely - which is a motivation buried in a kind of irrational mythological understanding of the nation as a particular volk. in fact on a number of occasions i've seen trump say things like i love mexicans some of my favorite people are mexicans, whereas it wouldn't make sense for hitler to have been like no i like the jews i just think we need to figure out what to do w/ them until we have a solution to jewish terrorism. they were inherently a blemish on the unified nation by din of their coincidence of birth (which is why the racial laws were necessary), not bc of any kind of rational political motivation.

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 15:40 (five years ago) link

if anything the kind of robber baron demagoguery that Trump specializes is more unappealing than Fascism but i like the distinction because broadly speaking Fascists are team players (assuming you're on their team) where is Trump is a piggy-eyed leech who doesn't give a fuck about anything beyond his own gratification.

There was an interesting piece by Ollie Carroll, i think, this week suggesting that there are only two genuinely political parties in Ukraine at the moment - Fascist and Communist. Everyone else, including the whole of the mainstream, is a front for robber barons. Trump is not a fascist or 'genuinely political' in any meaningful sense but arguably one of the main dangers he poses is that blurring the lines of what passes for acceptable political discourse without actually proposing anything to address the economic and social grievances his supporters have is going to make irl fascism more attractive in the long run.

On a Raqqa tip (ShariVari), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 15:45 (five years ago) link

I think Trump's impulses re: Muslims and "Mexicans" are very much in line with fascist and other far right totalitarian regimes. Worth keeping in mind that Nazism didn't explicitly advocate ethnic cleansing as part of their platform (which is not to say that Hitler didn't believe that they should all be murdered as early as 1920) but were much initially focused on expulsion of non-Germans.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 15:51 (five years ago) link

I gotta say I'm really confused by the "well he's not trying to dismantle democracy" line. I mean, if *you* decided to enact my tinfoil hat scenario from the primary thread, would you actually mention any antidemocratic intentions at this point?

Idk, maybe the term isn't fascist, but I feel like some form of widespread labeling needs to be done in order to differentiate him and whoever picks up his banner in four years as a different animal from the usual "Jesus told me to cut taxes" people, especially in the minds of people who, unlike me, are clever enough not to be wasting hours of their days every day following this bullshit. As scary as those guys can be, their gameplan doesn't trend towards the same kind of existential threat that makes an f-word-style regime so brutal and hard to reverse.

That said, I'm completely open to the idea that I just grew up post-Reagan and thus consider the actually-far-more-dangerous religious right to simply be a part of the scenery but am scared by the new shiny bad thing because it's new and shiny (to my personal experience, I mean, obviously this shit ain't new).

ENERGY FOOD (en i see kay), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 15:51 (five years ago) link

xp there's nothing in trump's presentation of history that suggests the kind of mythological cleansing of the other that hitler was obsessed w/. it's not like hitler got into power and then decided to get rid of all the jews. he was talking about jewish conspiracies and the stab-in-the-back myth very early on. it's all over mein kampf.

Indeed, in Mein Kampf, written in the early 1920s, Hitler explicitly linked the imagined deceit of the Jews in the First World War with the need for their destruction, saying that the ‘sacrifice of millions at the front’ would have been prevented if ‘twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the people had been held under poison gas.’ii
so this is present very early on. it didn't start as an anti-immigrant movement and then develop into jew hatred. it started as jew hatred from the very beginning.

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 15:56 (five years ago) link

moreover if you take his distinctions seriously he wants to get rid of undocumented immigrants (not American citizens of Mexican extract) and apparently backtracked on not allowing muslim American citizens into the united states. that's def not the totalizing of identity that fascism specializes in. the german people were germans, not jews or gypsies. ditto the italian people. but trump's American people includes Mexicans and Muslims. it's just the non-American Mexicans and Muslims he doesn't want and that isn't a concern exclusive to fascism unless you believe that all anti-immigrant sentiment is inherently fascistic but i see no reason to make that claim.

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 15:58 (five years ago) link

Nazism is hardly an ideology at all beyond the struggle of races and the anti-semitism at the heart of that, it's not only not incidental to Hitler's politics but his theoretical politics never went very far beyond it

Nazism isn't Fascism tbf

Coombesbat 18 (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:00 (five years ago) link

Right but Nazism also /= Fascism either, that's why it's a subset of it. I'd say Trump started demonizing immigrants and Muslims pretty much from the get go too. If your argument is "but he didn't doesn't say he want to kill them all so it's not fascism" then I think basically nothing that's Nazism will ever be Fascism to you.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:00 (five years ago) link

I'm not saying that he's not a fascist because he didn't say he wants to kill them all. I'm saying that he is distinguishing within Mexican and Muslim groups which suggests a less than totalizing vision of peoplehood and Otherness.

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:04 (five years ago) link

Racial "cleansing" isn't necessarily inherent in fascism. The idea of rebirth is arguably more important. Racial "cleansing" is often the result of that impulse though.

If you wanted to make the case that Trump was a fascist, there's quite a lot of crossover between his movement and the palingenesis that is one of the core building blocks of fascism. There's nothing beyond the surface though.

On a Raqqa tip (ShariVari), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:05 (five years ago) link

think people shd draw some lines between "policies Trump really gives a shit about", "things Trump will say because he thinks it might get him elected", "things Trump will say because he enjoys playing the asshole character 'Donald Trump'" and "things Trump would actually be allowed to do by all the other power-holders in the US in the hugely unlikely event he became President?" because i think this stuff all makes a difference to how seriously you dissect his opinions/try to label him

altho to quote JCLC calling assholes fascists is a time-honored tradition

Coombesbat 18 (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:06 (five years ago) link

so i'm not sure that "make america great again" is an example of fascistic rebirth. not least because what president has not campaigned on some level under the banner of making american great again? isn't every non-incumbant campaign pretty much a "change" campaign? and he isn't really speaking to a rebirth of a white identity - even tho some supremacists have heard things that resonate for them. has he really talked at all about whiteness and white consciousness (both staples of supremacist movements)?

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:07 (five years ago) link

do we reveal anything new/useful about the world by calling him a fascist, or do we just enjoy having the opportunity to use the word?

everyone itt probably knows both the strict and loose definitions of the word fascist and understands donald trumps' political views and place vis-a-vis the republican party. there are aspects of his appeal that call back to strongman fascist leaders, but not so long ago we had a cowboy president who had a 90% approval rating and who said stuff like 'you're either with us or against us'. even though that guy was less openly racist I'm not sure the situation was less 'fascist'.

trump appeals to the white-identity nationalist reactionaries who form the base of the republican party. this group existed before donald trump and they'll exist after him, he just found himself w/ a bulworth-esque situation where he can say whatever he wants (so exactly what they want to hear rather than mostly what they want to hear) as he's not tied to any political donors or a political career.

iatee, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:10 (five years ago) link

geez I go tot sleep for a few hours

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:18 (five years ago) link

xxp It's not racial identity he's talking about, it's national identity. Pinochet was arguably not much more racist than a lot of other Latin American leaders.

Trump's palingenetic appeal - one great leader will return a faded and corrupt nation to its former glory by sweeping away the old order of both political stripes and giving birth to the new forged in his own image - is outside of the scope of yr standard politician who'll "make x great again" but i don't think he really believes it or would know what to do with the power given the opportunity.

On a Raqqa tip (ShariVari), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:21 (five years ago) link

"one great leader will return a faded and corrupt nation to its former glory by sweeping away the old order of both political stripes and giving birth to the new forged in his own image" i'm not going to say it's impossible to squint and see this as trump but i think it's a bit of a stretch. he's running as a republican, he says he likes a lot of the other candidates, he has agreed not to run as an independent, he's deeply indebted to the current system, he talks about america "winning again" but not as a rebirth or awakening. i think he's much closer to a candidate claiming to make america great again than a fascistic leader.

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:24 (five years ago) link

he has agreed not to run as an independent,

oh come on

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:27 (five years ago) link

you're penchant for giving him the benefit of the doubt is truly baffling

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:27 (five years ago) link

your egh it's early for me

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:27 (five years ago) link

i'm not giving him any benefit of the doubt, i'm just looking at what he has said and how he has presented himself. if we're talking about his true motivations i think there's a slam-dunk case that he's a berlusconi-style buffoon who doesn't believe or give a shit about any of this. if we're going to talk about him as a fascist it needs to be on the level of his political presentation and reception.

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:29 (five years ago) link

I'd argue he's not running as a Republican. He's running for the Republican nomination as Donald Trump. Either way, he's not really a fascist though i wouldn't discount the idea that there's a crossover between traditional fascism and some elements of his support base who wouldn't self-identify as such.

On a Raqqa tip (ShariVari), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:29 (five years ago) link

in the last debate they asked him (and then after the debate he was asked 2-3 more times in interviews) about whether he'd run as an independent and he said (not exact quote) that he has grown to respect the other candidates and he feels a part of the republican party and so no he has decided he won't run as an independent and he just hopes the republican party treats him fairly at the convention. he also kept emphasizing that in some polls he beats hillary bc i think he has moved onto making the case to the party that he is a bet they should take.

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:30 (five years ago) link

if we're talking about his true motivations i think there's a slam-dunk case that he's a berlusconi-style buffoon who doesn't believe or give a shit about any of this.

otm

Anyway, it's not a three, it's a yogh. (Tom D.), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:33 (five years ago) link

he's made it abundantly clear his "commitment" to the Republican Party is conditional on how he's "treated" - he doesn't give a shit about the party.

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:33 (five years ago) link

he's using the party, he has no allegiance to it

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:34 (five years ago) link

i think he's going to try and start his own news network tbh

rap is dad (it's a boy!), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:34 (five years ago) link

Actually Donald Trump isn't a fascist, he is a dumb whiny man-baby with freedom fries where his testicles should be

you're breaking the NAP (DJP), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:36 (five years ago) link

anyway I agree w what Alex in SF and JCLC have said so far and stand by what I said on the og campaign thread: there's enough overlap between the positions and statements Trump has made and traditionally fascist ideologies to merit the use of the term imo. I think it's strange and inaccurate to act like his racism and eagerness to exploit racism in his base are situational responses to particular conditions - there is no "problem" with undocumented immigrants or Muslims in the sense that Trump and his base think it is (that they're "taking American jobs", depressing wages, destroying American culture, pose a security threat, etc.), those are all window-dressing manifestations of deep-seated racism rooted in the sense that the volk (white + Christian) of America feel threatened. That his statements don't mirror or match the extent of Hitler's views is irrelevant, it's the appeal to the violation of "true" Americans, to the sense of aggrieved identity, that is fascist.

xp

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:39 (five years ago) link

since we've got this thread and part of the title is "what is fascism," let me ask a question i asked facebook yesterday:

In 1944 George Orwell wrote in "What is Fascism?":

But Fascism is also a political and economic system. Why, then, cannot we have a clear and generally accepted definition of it? Alas! we shall not get one — not yet, anyway. To say why would take too long, but basically it is because it is impossible to define Fascism satisfactorily without making admissions which neither the Fascists themselves, nor the Conservatives, nor Socialists of any colour, are willing to make.
What do you suppose are the admissions Orwell thinks Fascists, Conservatives and Socialists are unwilling to make?

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:48 (five years ago) link

Here's the link for full context: http://orwell.ru/library/articles/As_I_Please/english/efasc

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:48 (five years ago) link

do we reveal anything new/useful about the world by calling him a fascist, or do we just enjoy having the opportunity to use the word?

back to iatee's point, beyond our potential (ab)use of the term in our little backwater of the internet, to the limited extent that the press/media has any impact on the polity's grasp of the candidates I think it's useful for major media outlets to be comfortable applying the term to Chump, it could be useful in solidifying opposition to him and making the views he espouses less acceptable in the general discourse. I think the degree to which we can limit the general acceptability of hateful demagoguery with potentially violent consequences is an important end-goal in itself.

xp

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:52 (five years ago) link

What do you suppose are the admissions Orwell thinks Fascists, Conservatives and Socialists are unwilling to make?

I would assume he means they don't want to admit how much alike they can be

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:53 (five years ago) link

i don't know why you think in a political context saturated with accusations of fascism applied to all sorts of disparate figures, ideas + parties calling trump a fascist would be anything but another trump in that bucket

Mordy, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:54 (five years ago) link

guys this is all just pre-opening hype for his DC hotel

https://www.trumphotelcollection.com/washington-dc/

reggie (qualmsley), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 16:55 (five years ago) link

if we want fascism to not have a meaning then sure

Fenners' Pen (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 January 2021 23:24 (one week ago) link

how's that

ftp (Left), Wednesday, 6 January 2021 23:31 (one week ago) link

Oh come the fuck on, the US is a settler colony that commits genocides and coups elsewhere in the world to maintain it's economic interests all while upholding itself as a beacon of freedom and denying those who would ever critique it in a substantive way.

The US is and has been fascist.

Pere Legume (the table is the table), Wednesday, 6 January 2021 23:34 (one week ago) link

the "he seems to be ok with democracy" posts here have not aged well

like, I’m eating an elephant head (katherine), Wednesday, 6 January 2021 23:34 (one week ago) link

I rather think it was other items in ilx poster lefts post that caused jim to snort tbf

nob lacks, noirish (darraghmac), Wednesday, 6 January 2021 23:36 (one week ago) link

I'm fascist Spartacus

Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Wednesday, 6 January 2021 23:38 (one week ago) link

People are surprised, they become indignant. They say: "How strange! But never
mind-it's Nazism, it will. pass!" And they wait, and they hope; and they hide the truth from
themselves, that it is barbarism, but the supreme barbarism, the crowning barbarism that
sums up all the daily barbarisms; that it is Nazism, yes, but that before they were its
victims, they were its accomplices; that they tolerated that Nazism before it was inflicted
on them, that they absolved it, shut their eyes to it, legitimized it, because, until then, it
had been applied only to non-European peoples; that they have cultivated that Nazism,
that they are responsible for it, and that before engulfing the whole of Western, Christian
civilization in its reddened waters, it oozes, seeps, and trickles from every crack.

What am I driving at? At this idea: that no one colonizes innocently, that no one
colonizes with impunity either; that a nation which colonizes, that a civilization which
justifies colonization - and therefore force - is already a sick civilization, a civilization that is
morally diseased, that irresistibly, progressing from one consequence to another, one
repudiation to another, calls for its Hitler, I mean its punishment.

https://b-ok.cc/book/834691/7bf6cb?dsource=recommend

ftp (Left), Wednesday, 6 January 2021 23:58 (one week ago) link

Césaire OTM, always OTM afaic.

Pere Legume (the table is the table), Thursday, 7 January 2021 00:32 (one week ago) link

it's easy to look back in 2016 through the lens of 2021, but despite all of the troubling things he said/did in the lead-up to the election, in modern times, we couldn't really comprehend an autocratic leader like Trump. those of us, at least, who have never lived under one.

I was afraid as hell of him and I laid up scared at night when he won but I didn't foresee this. but there are things now I didn't have a clue about 4 years ago

Looking for Cape Penis house (Neanderthal), Thursday, 7 January 2021 01:04 (one week ago) link

I mean, I'm not trying to be an asshole, but understanding an autocratic leader like Trump isn't that difficult.

It's understanding the people who want an autocratic leader like Trump that did me in during 2016, and while it doesn't do me in now in the same way, it remains disheartening to say the least

Pere Legume (the table is the table), Thursday, 7 January 2021 02:01 (one week ago) link

Politics are big and confusing and scary, and a lot of people choose not to think about them in any way. Some people find relief in surrendering their thought to an external service provider.

shivers me timber (sic), Thursday, 7 January 2021 02:33 (one week ago) link

it's easy to look back in 2016 through the lens of 2021, but despite all of the troubling things he said/did in the lead-up to the election, in modern times, we couldn't really comprehend an autocratic leader like Trump. those of us, at least, who have never lived under one.

I have been saying that Trump would be a fucking disaster since before he was elected, even when I didn’t think he would win. No rational minority in this country is surprised by this shitshow; we are only surprised it didn’t happen to Obama.

Totino's Fortnite Training Room (DJP), Thursday, 7 January 2021 02:37 (one week ago) link

I mean I knew he'd be a disaster, and was terrified of him winning, but I didn't expect "former reality TV star succeeds in getting minions to break into Senate building" on Nov 9th, 2016

Looking for Cape Penis house (Neanderthal), Thursday, 7 January 2021 02:41 (one week ago) link

i think a lot of things would be clearer/less blinkered about mainstream american political conversations come from the generic familiarity and blandness (tho not meaninglessness) of the two party names. if we had a multi-party system and/or continental party naming tendencies, and could see regularly how many reps and senators hailed from the straight up Patriot Strength Party or National Christian Conservative Homeland Party or whatever shit it would be called....

Doctor Casino, Thursday, 7 January 2021 03:39 (one week ago) link

Or you could just be Black

Totino's Fortnite Training Room (DJP), Thursday, 7 January 2021 03:44 (one week ago) link

Matt Goodwin is busy deleting tweets. pic.twitter.com/R5BoVL5DyY

— Luke Dyks (@LukeDyks) January 6, 2021

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 7 January 2021 11:23 (one week ago) link

He should eat them

Yelp for gyros (wins), Thursday, 7 January 2021 11:29 (one week ago) link

@ DJP - fair!

Doctor Casino, Thursday, 7 January 2021 12:01 (one week ago) link

In case you were wondering: yes, yes he is.

pomenitul, Tuesday, 12 January 2021 15:44 (three days ago) link

I thought this was really good and expresses a lot of things I have felt but found difficult to put together.

http://newpol.org/is-it-still-fascism-if-its-incompetent/

This is inchoate fascism, fascism in its experimental, speculative phase, in which is forming a coalition of minoritarian popular forces with elements in the executive and the repressive wing of the state. It would be devastatingly stupid, complacent beyond belief, to expect US democracy to remain sufficiently stable in the coming years to deny this incipient fascism more opportunities to congeal, and grow.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 22:53 (three days ago) link

I hate the term 'gaslighting' because I can never remember what it means. I wish there was a good trick using the visual cues of gas and lighting to help me remember; but I can't find a memorable connection of the cues and "sowing seeds of doubt to manipulate a targeted individual/group".

THE DON IS GONE (FlopsyDuck), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 14:53 (two days ago) link

Maybe a part of the problem is that people on the internet don't always use 'gaslighting' correctly.

THE DON IS GONE (FlopsyDuck), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 14:55 (two days ago) link

lmgtfy

Looking for Cape Penis house (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 15:12 (two days ago) link

I hate the term 'gaslighting' because I can never remember what it means.

never seen this term before, are you sure you're ok

stylish but illegal (Simon H.), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 15:15 (two days ago) link

lol

Looking for Cape Penis house (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 15:15 (two days ago) link

Very few if any such terms had much use to begin with except as shorthand for one person to miscommunicate to another, widespread use aint helped

Ole Blueyes Solskjaer (darraghmac), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 15:18 (two days ago) link

IMO you've just described language

Totino's Fortnite Training Room (DJP), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 15:21 (two days ago) link

"gaslighting" is an extremely useful and important term, especially for people who have been the victim of it!

a mnemonic device will probably remain elusive, since it's based on the title/plot details of a play about this form of abuse.

Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 13 January 2021 15:23 (two days ago) link

gaslighting is a useful term.

unfortunately it's now been co-opted on the net to mean "you are disagreeing with me".

but actual forms of gaslighting should be called out as such.

Looking for Cape Penis house (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 15:24 (two days ago) link

This discussion of Adorno’s writing on the Authoritarian Personality seems both helpful and relevant: https://leftanchor.podbean.com/e/episode-53-adorno-on-the-psychology-of-fascism/

Glower, Disruption & Pies (kingfish), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 15:24 (two days ago) link

in the US they called that play Angel Street.

glad it's not called "angelstreeting"

Looking for Cape Penis house (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 15:24 (two days ago) link

In the 80s, they called the act of falling in love with a coworker you initially hated “moonlighting”

Totino's Fortnite Training Room (DJP), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 15:36 (two days ago) link

Flopsy Duck, have you never seen the film "Gaslight?"

Three Rings for the Elven Bishop (Dan Peterson), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 15:44 (two days ago) link

In the 80s, they called the act of falling in love with a coworker you initially hated “moonlighting”


Lol

DJI, Wednesday, 13 January 2021 16:27 (two days ago) link

widespread use aint helped

― Ole Blueyes Solskjaer (darraghmac), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 15:18 (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

IMO you've just described language

― Totino's Fortnite Training Room (DJP), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 15:21 (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

This works too

Ole Blueyes Solskjaer (darraghmac), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 16:45 (two days ago) link

Whenever I read the definition for 'gaslighting' I forget it within a week or month. People use it all the time and I constantly have to relearn it. (I can't think of other words that give me such problems.)

Maybe the problem is that I developed a misleading mnemonic where I always visualize construction workers catcalling woman passing by (I don't even remember why) or gas headlights in old-timey cars.

THE DON IS GONE (FlopsyDuck), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 17:42 (two days ago) link

women*

THE DON IS GONE (FlopsyDuck), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 17:44 (two days ago) link

I developed a misleading mnemonic where I always visualize construction workers catcalling woman passing by

"Hey hot stuff! Lookin' good, baby! I think you left the oven on! No, I think you are misremembering that you turned it off, I am pretty sure the oven is definitely still on, you could burn your house down! You should go in and check it! *whistles* You want fries to go with that shake? Why don't you wiggle back down to the house to check the oven? I know you are saying you turned it off but I think you're misremembering, it's definitely on!"

Looking for Cape Penis house (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 17:47 (two days ago) link

haha

early-Woolf semantic prosody (Hadrian VIII), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 17:48 (two days ago) link

This helps :)

THE DON IS GONE (FlopsyDuck), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 17:57 (two days ago) link

i think of someone turning the gas on but not lighting it, a little each day, so that someone gets nauseous and ill but doesn’t know why

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 18:13 (two days ago) link

i think of someone saying "can you pass the gaslight" and the other says "what gaslight?" and then first one says "oh, i guess you don't remember that either now"

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 13 January 2021 18:16 (two days ago) link

I know about the play and movie but I confess that my main mental image of "gaslighting" involves, like, a Bic lighter and a frat bro in acid-washed jeans who thinks farting is hilarious

alpaca lips now (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 19:18 (two days ago) link

Mine is Ingrid Bergman, which I confess I prefer.

Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 19:32 (two days ago) link

your fart is Ingrid Bergman?

Looking for Cape Penis house (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 19:35 (two days ago) link

Notorious.

Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 19:38 (two days ago) link

Murder on the Orient Fartspress

i'm so into fping right now (Eric H.), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 19:38 (two days ago) link

Lol.

I always think of someone shining a lamp in another person's face, the second person saying 'hey could you stop that,' and the first person going 'stop what' while continuing to shine the lamp.

Pere Legume (the table is the table), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 19:41 (two days ago) link

lol, not bad.

Looks like I'm gonna be the filling in a missile sandwich! (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 19:45 (two days ago) link


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