hey gawker dudes. what the fuck is wrong with you?

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gawker was pretty shit when it relaunched but it had def gotten better it seems in the past 6 months, too bad.

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Wednesday, 1 February 2023 20:14 (one year ago) link

nine months pass...

But here’s the thing about tone: in many cases, it does matter. And though I was often politically and personally in agreement with our commenters, their over-the-top rhetoric could be alienating to me. I worried that this sort of rhetoric might offend new readers, and that it would be harmful to the new dialogue around gender politics that we were trying to influence and bring into the mainstream. Was there such a thing as “too much” anger? If so, who was I to determine what “too much” is? I felt torn, so I kept these questions mostly to myself.

The majority of our commenters were very good. Smart, observant, well-read, vibrant, and dizzyingly funny, they added context and nuance to the stories we published and pressed us to do better. Within a year of Jezebel’s launch, they even attracted the attention of the New York Times, which described them as meeting for drinks and renting vacation houses together. But sometimes they were bad: sarcastic, mean, intellectually dishonest, and bullying toward one another. And sometimes they were horrible, behaving like a twisted Greek chorus trying to upstage the main performers. (Years later, as comments on Web sites began to migrate to social media, I would come to realize that they were the main performers.) “That’s sort of the nature of having a commenting community,” Erin Ryan, an early commenter who became a writer for the site, told me. “People start feeling like they should have a say in what happens there. And really that’s not how a publication works.” At one point, in 2009, I toyed with the idea of handing the site over to the commenters for a day, just to watch them fail.

At times we were accused of “tone-policing” our readers. And it’s true: we did tone-police, especially those commenters who were nasty or uncivil. We would take to the comments threads to warn readers about crossing some sort of line. When they derailed a thread, we’d ask them to move the discussion into the comments of a daily anything-goes post that I pointedly named “Groupthink.” (Most of the commenters didn’t seem to get the joke.) I could have, maybe should have, been tougher on them. My managing editor at the time counselled me to think of Jezebel as a virtual dinner party my writers and I were throwing. “You wouldn’t allow someone to be that rude to other guests or hosts. You’d kick them out,” he said. “Do the same thing in the comments.” But we rarely banned anyone outright. No one wanted to punish readers for being impassioned.

I wondered, sometimes, whether my concerns about the comments were themselves sexist. Was I holding women to a standard of comportment? Complicating matters further was the fact that I’d started Jezebel and shepherded it to success on the back of my own anger. Though that anger, as I’ve explained, was legitimate and warranted—American women had been sold a bill of goods about who they were and what they wanted, or what they should want—it was starting to define the site, for both readers and casual observers.

When writing this, I remembered a 2015 Jezebel piece by Jia Tolentino called “No Offense.” In it, Tolentino, who at the time was the deputy editor of the site (and now is a New Yorker staff writer), tries to tackle multiple things at once, including how anger works on the feminist Internet and the ways in which digital media blurs the distinctions between readers and writers, creators and consumers. “There’s a large gap between ‘this is bad’ and ‘you should be offended’ that seems to vanish on the internet, and the harder we try to widen it on this website, the more we are constrained by that lingering expectation: that Jezebel exists, as some have always imagined it to, for the infantilizing purpose of telling women when they should get mad,” she wrote. Later, she added, “In theory, people still expect a feminist site to tell people what to be offended at; but what people seek from a feminist site is that the site itself will cause offense.”

I’m not sure that what people seek from a feminist site is that it will cause offense. I think they look for community. But communities can be difficult—chaotic, contentious, cacophonous. I recently came across a two-hundred-plus-page dissertation, published in 2019, called “Architecture and the Record: Negotiating Feminism in the Jezebel Comments.” It was . . . a lot. The author, Melissa Forbes, accused the site (again!) of choosing to “cater to outraged feminists.” I thought that she wasn’t giving the staffers, or our readers, much credit. But I was intrigued by Forbes’s observation that the comments provided a corrective to the feminism of the site’s writers. When the writers themselves were glib or cruel, she wrote, the commenters offered “a different kind of feminism from that practiced on the top half of the page.” I take issue with the idea that there are “different kinds” of feminism, though there are different “waves” of it. But I do believe that the commenters’ close reading of everything we did was how they forged community. They learned from one another, developed relationships, and discovered their own voices—and that was true even when they were (rightly or wrongly) angry with the editors and writers. As one commenter quoted by Forbes put it, “I have learned a lot from the kinds of articles you publish on this website, and even more from your regular commenters.”

I see Jezebel not as the beginning of the end of the digital-media era but as a moment—a spark—within an ongoing discussion about gender politics. That conversation has led to new realities around sexual assault and harassment, pay inequity, and cultural depictions of women. It also makes some people uncomfortable—in part because it involves women expressing their anger in public and sustained ways. “Every woman has a well-stocked arsenal of anger,” Audre Lorde wrote in 1981, which can act as a “powerful source of energy serving progress and change.”

If that’s part of Jezebel’s legacy, I’ll take it. It’s about everything I could have hoped for.

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-weekend-essay/jezebel-and-the-question-of-womens-anger

k3vin k., Monday, 6 November 2023 19:35 (six months ago) link

I read that yesterday and was struck by the dinner party metaphor, because it's how I've seen ILX for the past ~15 years*. Which in turn made me think that ILX is the comments section for the rest of, uh, The Internet I guess. "Whatever you do, don't read the comments" -- it's true here sometimes, nowhere near as often as it used to be.

that's when I reach for my copy of Revolver (WmC), Monday, 6 November 2023 20:01 (six months ago) link

*not counting my early cringeworthiest years

that's when I reach for my copy of Revolver (WmC), Monday, 6 November 2023 20:01 (six months ago) link

Jezebel is shuttering
https://boingboing.net/2023/11/09/jezebel-to-close-after-owner-g-o-media-fails-to-find-buyer.html

jbn, Thursday, 9 November 2023 15:57 (six months ago) link

Sorry to hear it

The Triumphant Return of Bernard & Stubbs (Raymond Cummings), Thursday, 9 November 2023 16:04 (six months ago) link

aw man :(

a very very unfair (Neanderthal), Thursday, 9 November 2023 16:16 (six months ago) link

Josh Marshall wrote a really good thread about this. I know it's been mentioned on ILX how to show the whole thing without linking to twitter, but I totally forget, sorrry.

Taking a hiatus from posting as opposed to sharing TPM links. But I wanted to share a few thoughts, perhaps give some context on the shuttering of Jezebel and how to understand these things. First, while I don't know Jezebel's internals and I less abt the current iteration ...

— Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) November 9, 2023

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 10 November 2023 20:33 (six months ago) link

https://nitter.net/joshtpm/status/1722679567637254611

ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Friday, 10 November 2023 22:02 (six months ago) link

Thanks!

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 10 November 2023 22:23 (six months ago) link

three months pass...

a legend returns

The Lure of Divorce: Seven years into my marriage, I hit a breaking point — and had to decide whether life would be better without my husband in it.

In the summer of 2022, I lost my mind.

mookieproof, Thursday, 15 February 2024 02:41 (two months ago) link

oof, a lot to take in there

ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Thursday, 15 February 2024 03:31 (two months ago) link

incredible piece. I probably have an unhealthy parasocial relationship with them after the apartment hunting series and raising raffi (also very good) that is heightened by how honest and open she so often is.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Thursday, 15 February 2024 03:32 (two months ago) link

I both like and question the fact she mentions the pandemic only once, in the opening

my brain is putting some ironic “keep calm and parent on” poster on her wall that she does not need

ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Thursday, 15 February 2024 03:39 (two months ago) link

yeah that was v. good

jaymc, Thursday, 15 February 2024 05:06 (two months ago) link

yeah wow that was great

werewolves of laudanum (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 15 February 2024 06:11 (two months ago) link

the essay was a lot tamer than I’d expected based on the reactions on twitter lol. good read, hope they’re ok

truly humbled underdog (k3vin k.), Thursday, 15 February 2024 18:44 (two months ago) link

she drives reply guys crazy (more than the median smart woman writer) for reasons i've never really understood.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Thursday, 15 February 2024 19:01 (two months ago) link

her husband learned to make… spaghetti? jfc

Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Friday, 16 February 2024 10:12 (two months ago) link

I'm the one to say this because no one else is going to say it because it's just not something you're allowed to say. But I'll say it for your sake. This was hard on your marriage V pic.twitter.com/ZLhVUhpFi9

— cai (@AnneNotation) February 15, 2024



Their children seem a lot of work and this was barely mentioned in the essay

Roman Anthony gets on his horse (gyac), Friday, 16 February 2024 11:09 (two months ago) link

her husband learned to make… spaghetti? jfc

― Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Friday, February 16, 2024 5:12 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

hmm I don’t know if this is really a fair one line takeaway lol

truly humbled underdog (k3vin k.), Friday, 16 February 2024 11:33 (two months ago) link

xp yeah. the loud people on the internet being critical are completely tone deaf to the deliberate understatements and tongue-in-cheek sections. everyone needs to have one literate friend in the group to explain things, apparently

ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Friday, 16 February 2024 14:15 (two months ago) link

The kid (only one is described in the book) seems fine at book length and certainly no worse than my kids. I think that review is summarizing one of the more comic chapters of an entire book.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Friday, 16 February 2024 14:27 (two months ago) link

But yes kids are hard on a marriage. The description of parenting in New York in the pandemic is horrifying.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Friday, 16 February 2024 14:30 (two months ago) link

sorry to derail but where are we talking about the CIA taking $50k from the cut's financial advice columnist for safekeeping?

, Friday, 16 February 2024 14:31 (two months ago) link

yes that one was far more unhinged but also doesn’t seem like there’s much to really talk about

truly humbled underdog (k3vin k.), Friday, 16 February 2024 14:34 (two months ago) link

lol the cut’s essays editor must be celebrating

meanwhile cf literary clusterfucks thread

god I love writer drama. this woman’s book about her divorce was mentioned totally neutrally in another writer’s essay about her marriage and she’s has been vigorously subtweeting her all day because she didn’t also get divorced pic.twitter.com/gDtugi4zlm

— katie (@focusfronting) February 15, 2024

Roz, Friday, 16 February 2024 15:05 (two months ago) link

re: the financial advice columnist getting scammed, this woman went on an absolute tear yesterday about how anyone can be scammed (no doubt true!) and do we really think we're smarter than andy cohen (actually, yes!)

Yup, you're smarter than her. And smarter than Andy Cohen, who fell victim to a phone scam. https://t.co/BWoBobztOz

— Jessica Roy (@jessica_roy) February 15, 2024

mookieproof, Friday, 16 February 2024 15:17 (two months ago) link

I just can’t believe there are people who still answer the phone

truly humbled underdog (k3vin k.), Friday, 16 February 2024 15:21 (two months ago) link

i find it wild that people answer their phones for someone/thing that is not in their phones' phonebook (this does not apply to old ppl w only land lines)

Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Friday, 16 February 2024 15:47 (two months ago) link

oh lol big doubleup there

Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Friday, 16 February 2024 15:48 (two months ago) link

I have the same reaction that I always do to these stories of marriage/kids/books -- I feel bad for Raffi. Being exploited like that, for his parents' benefit. I also did not know that Keith was Masha Gessen's brother. Does he not have anything else to write about?!

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Friday, 16 February 2024 15:53 (two months ago) link

lol mookie

I think if you have a reason to take random phone calls part of your regular set of tools needs to be specific things to ask to determine if any call is legit or total bullshit, where total bullshit is the default. I found out some coworkers were responding to direct solicitation from salespeople in their work email and WHY? if you have no need for this product or service just ignore it. anything else is “this guy responds to email, I could have a live one on the line”

ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Friday, 16 February 2024 15:54 (two months ago) link

I was talking to a guy from a biometric security company a couple of days ago who reckons that we are about a year away from the kind of tech currently being used to, for example, create live deepfakes of CEOs with meticulously constructed VR spoofs of their homes and offices capable of fooling their employees and banks, being accessible to more or less anyone who wants to use it. Not sure how any of these people are going to survive.

ShariVari, Friday, 16 February 2024 16:04 (two months ago) link

the corporate threat simulations for these things have gotten a little better but are still pretty funny. oh, the ceo of my employer wants me to open this dropbox link? I totally talk to him all the time, makes sense. they’ll have to catch up further, but the limiting factor is going to be whether people high up in enough in companies will be able to take the ego hit if any of the deepfakes or spam calls actually fool them. some real thin skin in those upper echelons, sometimes

ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Friday, 16 February 2024 16:07 (two months ago) link

I get what you’re saying LL but I think some parenting writing avoids that by being about parenting rather than about the kid. The specifics are about the parent rather than the kid. The specifics are specific to the parent and their relationship with their partner, the kid could be any kid. (This obviously isn’t true of all parenting memories). Parenting becomes such a big part of your life (especially the mother) that they are left with nothing personal to write about if they don’t address it. Rachel cusk is good on this.

(I’m not saying this defence applies to raising raffi in particular. There are a couple of chapters in there with the stated goal of memorializing raffi the toddler, which describe him in some detail.)

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Friday, 16 February 2024 16:16 (two months ago) link

i'd love to punch my hologram CEO

CEO Greedwagon (Neanderthal), Friday, 16 February 2024 16:19 (two months ago) link

-KRS One

CEO Greedwagon (Neanderthal), Friday, 16 February 2024 16:19 (two months ago) link

“All parenting memoirs”

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Friday, 16 February 2024 16:22 (two months ago) link

man the emily gould piece made me financially anxious. until it mentioned the in-laws live in cape cod. later it's revealed to be falmouth. i went on zillow to see what houses there sell for. i think they'll be fine!

, Friday, 16 February 2024 19:50 (two months ago) link

I get what you’re saying LL but I think some parenting writing avoids that by being about parenting rather than about the kid. The specifics are about the parent rather than the kid. The specifics are specific to the parent and their relationship with their partner, the kid could be any kid. (This obviously isn’t true of all parenting memories). Parenting becomes such a big part of your life (especially the mother) that they are left with nothing personal to write about if they don’t address it. Rachel cusk is good on this.

(I’m not saying this defence applies to raising raffi in particular. There are a couple of chapters in there with the stated goal of memorializing raffi the toddler, which describe him in some detail.)

I hear you and don't think I will personally ever be ok with putting a young person's life on display in this way. I have very personal reasons for feeling this way and I don't see any situation in which I would feel differently. Being fully aware of the rigors of parenting (though I admittedly haven't done it myself) is not new to me. I am fully aware that in the modern world, parents become consumed by their children and have little room in their lives for much else, at least for a time. None of this is novel information, if we're being honest.

Neither that knowledge nor the centering of the parental experience changes my belief that knowingly putting a young person's life on display without their consent is not good for the young person's life experience. Whether the output centers the parental experience or is more egregiously exploitative of the child, mining one's child's life for material is just not something I am ok with. I expressed myself above and continue to feel that way. I don't actually think you got what I was saying bc if you did, you wouldn't have tried to change my mind.

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Friday, 16 February 2024 20:49 (two months ago) link

sorry for derailing

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Friday, 16 February 2024 20:49 (two months ago) link

i find it wild that people answer their phones for someone/thing that is not in their phones' phonebook (this does not apply to old ppl w only land lines)

― Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Friday, February 16, 2024 9:47 AM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

when my kids were in day care I had to! they always called from their personal phones to say hey, your kid puked, go pick 'em up

frogbs, Friday, 16 February 2024 21:16 (two months ago) link

LL: I wasn’t trying to change your mind, but fair enough.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Saturday, 17 February 2024 13:36 (two months ago) link

sorry to derail but where are we talking about the CIA taking $50k from the cut's financial advice columnist for safekeeping?

The bit (assuming the whole thing isn't a bit, so to speak) where the CIA dude gives her a nine-digit case number and she thinks "Hmm, I should check this is on the up-and-up" and googles the case number is amazing.

Andrew Farrell, Sunday, 18 February 2024 19:56 (two months ago) link

three weeks pass...

rip vichy deadspin

mookieproof, Monday, 11 March 2024 17:43 (two months ago) link

congrats Cord Jefferson!

Cemetry Gaetz (DJP), Monday, 11 March 2024 17:43 (two months ago) link

Good riddance


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