the scottish independence referendum

what if Scotland is granted independence on the condition that it can no longer be called Scotland

UK other than Scotland/y

I don't think it'll be particularly good for England if they vote yes, but reckon it's the right decision for them. Also new countries are exciting.

scotland could go back to calling themselves this, depending on what tirana's finest copyright lawyers have to say about it

The toponym Albania may indicate several different geographical regions: a country in the Balkans; an ancient land in the Caucasus; as well as Scotland, Albania being a Latinization of a Gaelic name for Scotland, Alba.[1]

"Alba" or something similar is still the word for Scotland in most Celtic languages.

what are the stakes behind this referendum?

what does ilx poster <small_house_icon> think about this?

tentatively in favour of hoping this goes through, even though the shortest odds are 4/1

so hoping in realistic terms for a close enough vote in order that it prolongs the argument

I would bet cash money on <small_house_icon> being firmly in the y camp.

I'm Scotland/undecided but swaying slowly towards y.

most interesting aspect of this for me is whether ppl feel strongly about it in either direction and if so why. would have preferred a poll about that specifically but at least dgaf options are furnished so i appreciate that. it would be great if anyone who does feel strongly would declare themselves and their reasons.

I dunno. It is a hard sell to voters to tell them that they could not possibly succeed if they were on their own. Seems to me the only remotely serious argument against independence is how much it would shrink the economic base upholding the currency. Five years ago that question could have been answered rather confidently by reference to joining the euro. Nowadays not so much.

As an outlander with no stake in the outcome, I lean in favor of Scotland paddling her own canoe. But on my end it is just a parlor game and I know it.

new countries are cool and if the scottish people want their own country they shd do it, who cant understand not wanting to be married to england right m8, however the two things ive heard economic wise: retaining the pound and reliance on north sea oil $$$ are objectively tragic bad signs

voted non uk / y fwiw and am decidedly uninformed on the topic

xp Well, more like seven years ago.

non-uk/y come on in the euro's lovely

Five years ago that question could have been answered rather confidently by reference to joining the euro. Nowadays not so much.

― Aimless, Monday, 25 August 2014 21:50 (8 minutes ago)

if anything now would be a better time to adopt the € because the consequences for feckless minor nations within a currency union without a debt union have been spelt out and can be managed prospectively, while the hypothetical benefits of currency union mostly remain

the problem is more that under the influence of major eu countries such as spain who are troubled by secessionist movements, the eu can't freely extend membership

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-independence-eu-bid-extremely-difficult-says-jose-manuel-barroso-9131925.html

dont. adopt. the euro.

not voting but i hope Sean Connery comes out of seclusion to comment on the result.

all the ppl I know who are voting are english and voting y

i'm in favour bcuz it holds promise & it's a blow to westminster

albion-derived names arguably more appropriate for what would be left of the uk

if they don't adopt the euro then they try to stay within the dominion of the ecb who determine monetary largely with reference to the southeast of england, or they have their own cool new currency and bond issue supporting a nordic public expenditure on an iberian gdp, there aren't any good choices

if u have your own country you need your own currency end of story

Nope, the top half of the island is Alba, bottom half is Lloegr.

supporting a nordic public expenditure on an iberian gdp is something theyre gonna have to worry about reguardless

all the ppl I know who are voting are english and voting y

the english get a vote??

assuming english residing in scotland

if u have your own country you need your own currency end of story

― lag∞n, Monday, 25 August 2014 22:19 (2 minutes ago)

yeah but lagz m8 that isnt current policy

Salmond believes that an independent Scotland should share the pound with the rest of the UK in a formal currency union that would see the Bank of England ­remain responsible for monetary policy. A currency union would also see Scotland would have the same exchange rate as the rest of the UK.

thats the scotsmans summary quoted so if it isnt correct blame the scotsman

well scotland isnt really a country right now as the rest of the world understands countries

i guess my vote is non uk / y, why? bc the lolz

branwell as you may well know the oldest (latin&greek) uses of albion were referring to the island of great britain. idk how it came to refer just to scotland, possibly due to identification w/ persisting celtic population

suspect scotland will keep the pound one way or another

Under the terms of the 2010 Draft Bill, the following people would be entitled to vote in the referendum:[18]
British citizens who are resident in Scotland;
citizens of the 52 other Commonwealth countries who are resident in Scotland;
citizens of the 27 other European Union countries who are resident in Scotland;
members of the House of Lords who are resident in Scotland;
Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the British Armed Forces or with Her Majesty's Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.

Basically, people in Scotland.

not sure why "members of the House of Lords who are resident in Scotland" has its own mention, presumably being w/in the set of british citizen resident in scotland

am i right in assuming that british citizens residing in Scotland are more likely to vote against the ref in comparison to natives?

Yes the Albionii stayed in the top of the island, and the Sowsneks/Saesnegs/Sassenachs overran the bottom bit so they had to rename it to accommodate the bloody foreigners, why should they get to come over here and take our good, Celtic name for the island.

albion-derived names arguably more appropriate for what would be left of the uk

― ogmor, Monday, 25 August 2014 22:15 (27 minutes ago)

this is tendentious rather than apodictic

the precedent of slovakia/slovenia and guinea/guinea bissau allows for countries in the same area to have similar names

albania (long form caledonia albania) in the north

albion (long form pete doherty's albion) in the south

lol I could smell the word sassenach in the air before it arrived. afaik it's v unclear where terms like albion or celts first recorded in greek&roman writings originated, whether they were self-ascribed, proudly claimed after the fact or w/e. the amount of population movement vs cultural assimilation is obv contentious in what happened to them. anyway scotland seems like a p solid name, but albion/the democratic republic of albion would be good trolling for the rest of the uk to deploy

Scotii were Fucken Irish bastards anyway. Call it Pictland, send the Sowsneks back to Saxony & be done with the whole mess.

i thought i'd google up a vox article to get a rundown on the implications of the referendum. i generally have no time for them but this seems like something they'd be good at doing. unfortunately they haven't deemed it worthy of coverage yet.

I'm Scottish and fairly certain I'll be voting no. Unless there are some revelations to come.

I'll fully admit that I'm terrible at understanding political terminology. I don't think I'd be very good at examining the facts, figures and knowing what the reliable sources are. I just have to trust whoever sounds the smartest.

I've heard quite widely that the possible independent futures with the European Union, NATO and the currency are highly uncertain. The speculations about rising cost of living and economic disaster terrify me. Some have said that women voters are largely on the "no" side because they think more cautiously about future stability (for all I know maybe that is horseshit).
Some of the pro-independence promises about the possibilities sounded great but then there have been some further arguments to undermine that. Especially in regards to sustaining any of the good things in future decades.

The idea of SNP wanting to keep the monarchy is not encouraging. If I was confident Scotland could emulate the better Scandinavian countries I would vote yes easily.

I'm sure some of my friends will be angry about my position and they may well know Scottish people better than I do but I'm highly sceptical of the idea of Scotland being less bigoted than the rest of Britain. I'm scared of the isolationist mentality increasing. I'm quite worried about hearing stories of people with English accents being attacked.
The hideous patriotism and stories of "no" huts being set on fire are scary. But I've been told it's been very ugly on both sides.

i should've known to go w/ the week

If I was confident Scotland could emulate the better Scandinavian countries I would vote yes easily.

This is my big problem with the ideological argument here. We aren't going to turn into a socialist utopia overnight. I would love it if we did. But come the 19th September we're still going to have bigotry and class distinction and all the other problems. This is a country where at the most recent opportunity we got ourselves a UKIP representative despite their minimal presence above the border. I'm seeing people in their teens and early twenties who didn't grow up knowing who Thatcher was (and so don't have that Tory-hate that seems ingrained in the national psyche), so when people say "Vote No Get Tory" I don't really think it's a valid argument - the values could easily sneak in by another name.

I am still undecided. I think better democracy could come from more localised, closer representation but there's still the problems of far too many politicians in Scotland coming from backgrounds of comparative affluence and privilege. The SNP will break up once the common goal is achieved and it's hard to predict what will happen then. Probably veering towards yes but there's just as many unanswered questions and unignorable issues on both sides.

the counterfactual seems to be the lost dream where scotland gots its independence before the uk turned to monetarism and before the better part of north sea oil revenues were accounted for, in which free scotland acquired a norway sized sovereign wealth fund and applied to a dirigist program of national re-education directed at its internal class/sectarian/regional factions in order to unify as free scotland under the scottish freedom krona

The option of more devolution hasn't been discussed widely enough.

"devo max"?

I'm pretty much in the dark about how tourism will be changed or the lives of people who regularly travel between Scotland and any other part of UK.
I don't know how important tourism is to the economy but I imagine that Scotland is only visited by a lot of people who are prioritizing a trip to England. Would it be more hassle to go to an independent Scotland for these people?

Will we still be using co.uk sites? Will we have the BBC?

I don't really know what maximum devolution would do either.

I heard our internet might be slower but I hope that was a sick joke.

want Scotland to vote yes because a) hilarity and b) everybody in favour of "No" is a cunt

tragically not going to happen tho, clearly

I just have to ask: Which are the 'better' Scandinavian countries, and which ones aren't?

i'm not sure that's true. it's an increasingly real possibility. i've done a 180 on this in the past year and am now firmly in the yes camp. the only movements i have seen are towards a yes vote - virtually no one seems to be running the other way. I have regrets about it but basically - cameron + osborne + even worse on the horizon (ik,r?) = fuck this shit. scotland is really not like the bulk of the uk, socially.

i'm voting yes and i truly believe there will be a yes outcome.

the whole scotland = scandi thing is ridiculous though.

y

best thing i've read endorsing the yes vote: http://www.radicalphilosophy.com/commentary/yes

FT lifehack: search twitter for the headline, click the first link to the story.

https://twitter.com/search?q=Goodbye%20EU%2C%20and%20goodbye%20the%20United%20Kingdom&src=typd

Fair enough - it wasn't massively clear that was the title, though.

while a lot of no voting scots and their love-bombing rUK allies were bloodless FBPEU types there is also a large overlap between the strains of gammonism at play in no and leave, and some demographic overlap (older, rural).

and of course there never would have been a referendum on membership of the eu if scotland had voted yes, as it would have ended with cameron's resignation, and quite probably a victory for ed miliband's labour party. brb going to write a counterfactual history book "ed's lesser britain"

good tip, Jim, thanks.

caek gave the good tip.

good tip, caek, thanks.

Fair enough - it wasn't massively clear that was the title, though.

― Andrew Farrell, Thursday, April 4, 2019 4:58 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the title is at the top of the page even if you're paywalled.

I've not seen any polls on the issue but I really don't think that a second independence referendum would go down well in Scotland. It seems like most people just want some kind of stability. Maybe in a few years after all the Brexit stuff has settled down (if it ever does)

Hard Brexit would increase the chances, you'd have to think.

Stability is no longer an option.

I think it would make things a lot harder for Yes in the event of any campaign. A lot of the harder questions (eg currency, central bank, what they'd need to do to gain EU membership etc) were sort of handwaved away last time. The ongoing Brexit disaster shows the dangers of doing that, and the details would be hammered by the No side.

Whether that would be enough to offset the boost from the obvious Brexit shitshow I don't know, but it would be a very different campaign.

yeah, that's what i've been thinking too - brexit has very clearly demonstrated the vast amounts of hurdles and pitfalls of leaving a political union and i dunno how convincing a case can be made that scotland will be able to navigate them successfully

The EU was a largish argument in the indyref - lots and lots of stump speeches around "the EU might not let you in when you exit and then you'll be fucked".

"We promised to keep you in the EU, you voted Remain, we took you out anyway" is a thing that switches a lot of votes, I think.

As for Brexit's chaos, it'll be spun as "we'll get ourselves back in the sane and stable EU and let England sink into its own dysfunction" and I think that'll work too. Border issues aside.

I think it would make things a lot harder for Yes in the event of any campaign. A lot of the harder questions (eg currency, central bank, what they'd need to do to gain EU membership etc) were sort of handwaved away last time. The ongoing Brexit disaster shows the dangers of doing that, and the details would be hammered by the No side.

They were hammered by the No side last time.

yes, these were the main talking points that the no side had (although polling showed that no voters were more swayed by emotional, identity based - "i feel british" - arguments than yes voters).

the main sticking point for yes now - other than the fact that polling hasn't changed significantly which is obviously the main problem - is that it looks like rUK will not be in the eu, scotland would likely apply to be in the eu, and as the eu is expansionist would likely be accepted. then there would be a border issue between scotland and england, which basically can't happen

But backstop. Alternative arrangements. Prosecco Buckfast

post-indyref SNP developments on the currency question seem messy so far and a nascent source of division within the party.

did the cuts commission report go down like a bag of cold sick with the left of their membership?

scene is set for a rammy at conference on currency

xp. the growth commission was sort of just forgotten about because of how badly it went down with most of the base and how much of a gift it was to slab iirc

snp sort of remind one of new labour in their pomp. party democracy doesn't seem to be at the fore and so a restive left-wing base is kept subdued by a jupiterian, presidential leader and their technocratic allies

Gonna need a constitutional crisis thread imminently. Also:

I word for no campaigners in Scotland. You’re wasting precious time arguing about mandates. Last referendum won by persuading centre left voters 1) EU membership only safe in UK 2) A progressive Labour gov was on the horizon 3) Currency and Economic security. 1/2

— Kezia Dugdale (@kezdugdale) December 15, 2019

this was published on monday and support for scottish independence has since reached record levels https://t.co/mHIJDA5pdr

— LES MONUMENT (@wariotifo) August 19, 2020

"historian"

absolute wank of a man.

if that is the one of the best they can find to fight in their propaganda battle for the continuation of the UK, then they are truly fucked! It's Bob Geldoff/Eddie Izzard/Alistair Darling campaigning for remain dismal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoOfXUZj4gM&feature=emb_title

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoOfXUZj4gM

I honestly can’t wait for Scotland to join the EU, the two Ireland’s reunite, and the British empire finally be distilled to just England and Wales

Theres only 1 ireland pal

The worst thing about this tweet?

For 5 years, the government's own experts have told them that every Brexit scenario will make the British people poorer, and the only time they're willing to admit that, is when it can be used for political advantage to threaten Scotland. https://t.co/G483i62FgM

— Femi😷 (@Femi_Sorry) February 5, 2021

here we fucking go

It’s going to pass this time isn’t it?

it’ll pass 52/48 in favour and the tories will say it’s too narrow a margin to allow it to happen

if it doesn't pass this time then it will be disastrous, in so many ways. I'm still not convinced one way or another for various reasons but I kinda want it to happen because the alternative timeline for both Scotland and the UK is cataclysmic

I wouldn't put money on it tbh. I can't imagine what state the economy and the world at large will be by Oct 2023.

looking forward to seeing Gordon Brown out on the big stage again where he belongs

Nothing is certain but the yoon argument has taken a ton of damage since the first referendum - Brexit alone must be worth at least 10% to yes. I am saying this mindful of the various caveats about the reality of indyScot but the last eight years haven’t exactly been “we’re so glad you stayed”.

the Scottish Government is currently taking control over the administration of the benefits system and has made a deliberate and real committment to treating claimants better than DWP. If the roll-out is a success it's going to have a huge impact. Plus, Brexit.

the flipside is that, you only need to spend a day in Sturgeon's own constituency to see the kind of thing that turns voters off - poor housing, fly-tipping and litter, rampant effects of drug use. I live here and I like it, but when you've had to call the council to put down traps for rats in the communal bin area shared by six tenenment blocks, you do have to ask if things are going as well as they possibly could.

going to be interesting to see

* are the tories going to try to declare it illegitimate? surely this couldn't be another catalonia, but then what?
* what kind of remain campaign can be mounted if the vote isn't supported by national parties?
* will there just be a spoiler boycott in order to undermine legitimacy?

My timeline already full of "just go away, we're subsidising you ungrateful and we don't want you" guys, who all seem to have changed their tune from the unionist tune they were all dancing to in 2014 insisting we had to stay for, um, reasons.

I think for it to be successful it has to be made very clear to idiots like, say, my mum, that the SNP don't have to be the party in government of an independent Scotland. She hated Salmond and hates Sturgeon (despite all the free prescriptions and the free buses and the forthcoming free education her grandson will benefit from, to pick three examples) and even hating the Tories won't convince her to cut Scotland adrift of Westminster because boo SNP bad (c) BBC Scotland and the Scottish Daily Mail.

I'm an indy supporter but I'm really not sure if this is the right time. It doesn't feel to me like there's much demand for a second referendum right now, what with how wild everything's been over the last few years

I've seen people argue that Brexit might actually put voters off voting for Scottish independence, that all the chaos and disruption of leaving the EU will make voters worry that leaving the UK would be equally (or even more) fraught, as well as the fact that an independent Scotland would have to rejoin the EU rather than automatically remaining a member. Does this seem credible to people more in-the-know than me, or is desire to rejoin the EU/resentment of being pulled out of the EU by England the more significant factor?

I don't think Scottish (re)accession to the EU will necessarily be straightforward, given Spanish thoughts about the precedent it would set for Catalonia

whether that is something that Scottish voters will take into account ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If only Russia could be persuaded to invade Scotland.

xxxp I think that worry about the disruption of leaving the UK and wanting to join the EU probably cancel each other out. That's just a personal feeling, I don't have any data to back that up

I remember in 2014 Salmond insisting that negotiating Scotland's exit from the UK would be very straightforward, both Scotland and the rump UK would have a shared interest coming to an agreement everyone was happy with etc, which seemed implausible at the time and is even more unconvincing after Brexit.

Ironically probably a better chance of negotiation with any other government than this one

yesterday I heard the most important issue being brought up on PM: Would ppl from rump UK to be able to take their dogs with them into an independent Scotland without any nonsense like when they take them to France these days. The posh as fuck English people that take their dogs with them on holiday lobby deserve to have their say on Scotland's future as well!