WTF?: "Seinfeld"'s Michael 'Kramer' Richards in Weird-o-Rama Onstage Meltdown

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lets be fair theres plenty of other reasons people want to punch dr morbius

― anticon jemima (ooo), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:30 (nineteen years ago)

xposty: sterling, read that article again

― Dr. Alicia D. Titsovich (sexyDancer), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:32 (nineteen years ago)

I still maintain that you're a little wee bit of a liberal-guilt racist but you don't see ME posting it three times to this thread. xpost.

― Allyzay Eisenschefter Pop You To The Extreme (allyzay), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:34 (nineteen years ago)

any idea what that means? didn't think so.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:42 (nineteen years ago)

Wow, so you basically think that people who kill out of self-defense are the same as, say, Ted Bundy? I mean, there's context.

belaboring the point, but people who legitimately kill in self-defense are often not convicted of murder. "convicted murderer" is someone who, whatever their claims of context or extenuating circumstances, has been judged guilty of murder.

anyway, in this case, there's no contextual basis for saying richards is not a racist. i'm sorry if it pains people to call people who give racist rants "racist," but for the word to have any meaning i think we probably have to.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:44 (nineteen years ago)

xpost
i'm just saying the matter is quite a bit more complicated, & as i recall, segregated or not (and they never all were) freemason lodges tended to land on the side of abolitionism.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:47 (nineteen years ago)

what are masons even about anymore? i figured it was about as illuminati as being in the kiwanis or some shit

― geoff (gcannon), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:49 (nineteen years ago)

Adversary to thread.

― mahalo 4 ur kokua (grady), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:55 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.defamer.com/topic/clay-aiken.jpg
LOL BEN LINUS IS A FREAK

― stoked for the madness (nickalicious), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 22:03 (nineteen years ago)

xposty: right, but scrolling back through masonry's "rich heritage" we certainly have masonic slave-owners. A recent zealot mason like Richards would probably be aware of the entire history enough to cop a superior attitude, like "we freed the slaves, you know." That whole bit where Richards says the key to masonry is "know thyself" seems fairly ironic as it's clear he either doesn't know shit or is up to creepy shenanigans wrt race relations.

― Dr. Alicia D. Titsovich (sexyDancer), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 22:03 (nineteen years ago)

if you go on a tour of the grand hall in philly by city hall you get to see george washington's masonic apron. i highly recommend it. it's an amazing building. like, awesome.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 22:15 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.knitemare.org/cats/270907182_ef25ba42de.jpg
^^this thread

― Allyzay Eisenschefter Pop You To The Extreme (allyzay), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:07 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/02E1C582-9A91-4390-AB23-1D5F4F3C4738/0/dont_improvise_697x984.jpg

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:18 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/1C575266-2BBD-49DA-B88E-0E925AB01A46/0/dont_let_routine_696x984.jpg

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:19 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/C2FB0FC2-670B-4CFD-B6C9-F22402F35E6C/0/personal_problems_695x984.jpg

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:21 (nineteen years ago)

ok, that first one is a bit odd

― kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:30 (nineteen years ago)

more anti-jazz proopaganda!

― Dr. Alicia D. Titsovich (sexyDancer), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:30 (nineteen years ago)

the first one looks like michael richards with a moustache.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:32 (nineteen years ago)

Brokeback Mountain reference, innit?

― Through a twenty deep screen of humourists (noodle vague), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:32 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.geology.iastate.edu/ams/images/school_poster_winner_3.jpg

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:36 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.wolfenews.com/images/BestSlo.jpg

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:38 (nineteen years ago)

It's funny how one of the most contentious threads in recent ILx history has the phrase "Weird-o-Rama" in the title.

― nate p. (natepatrin), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:41 (nineteen years ago)

Basic Instrcutions Before Leaving Earth

― Dr. Alicia D. Titsovich (sexyDancer), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:42 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.fototime.com/B50DBF51B29E940/orig.jpg

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:00 (nineteen years ago)

Just as it is important to look behind the mask of a comedian like Red Skelton and to see the heart of a great man, Richards says of Masonry, "We must look behind the symbols to see the heart of their meaning. What does a symbol stand for? How do I translate that idea into my life?"

Like Jacques Cousteau diving in the sea, Richards says, "Masons must search the deepest parts of themselves, within any organization, to discover the uniqueness of their life unfolding."

Richards is not alone in his convictions. Past Grand Master Jack Levitt recently wrote: "Freemasonry's truths are covered with symbolism and its insights with allegory. It is necessary to look behind the fact to see the truth and beyond the symbol to see the reality."

And as Richards would say, the reality is you. "A Freemason is a man building up himself, coming into his own to highlight the individual that he is," he says.

When I ask Richards what symbol in Freemasonry strikes him as being especially important, he says, "When you go into our Lodge, on the back of the Tiler's chair are the words 'Know Thyself.' That's important. That is the ultimate message to all Freemasons; to truly know who you are."

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:05 (nineteen years ago)

"As Cosmo Kramer in "Seinfeld," Richards played one on TV. But he himself is not Jewish -- not that there's anything wrong with that."

"The real Kramer is indeed of Jewish heritage -- not that there's anything wrong with that."

Weird.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:11 (nineteen years ago)

two way late thoughts:

1) why couldn't "cracker" be as bad as the n-bomb? i mean, right, it's not referring to a history of rape, murder, subjugation--it's just referring to a history of raping, murdering, and subjugating. i mean "you're a subhuman" vs. "you're a cancer on the planet." how are these not reciprocal versions of the same fuck you? how does the latter not claim the indisputably higher "you're morally worthless" ground?

2) if only blacks get to use the n-word, perhaps only blacks should have the right to officially damn white users thereof?

― literalisp (literalisp), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:25 (nineteen years ago)

Weird.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:28 (nineteen years ago)

No wait it isn't weird. You are just an idiot.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:28 (nineteen years ago)

racist.

― literalisp (literalisp), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:29 (nineteen years ago)

Eggzactly!

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:30 (nineteen years ago)

It's funny how one of the most contentious threads in recent ILx history has the phrase "Weird-o-Rama" in the title.

Not to be contentious, but something like the Kill Bill thread was way worse in the argument department. This thread was quiet meditation comparatively.

xpost Though I could be proven wrong yet.

― Noilly Prat (kenan), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:31 (nineteen years ago)

Idiot Like Me

― literalisp (literalisp), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:34 (nineteen years ago)

FIFTEEN POSTS TO GO

― dommy p is alright WHICH IS A LOT MORE THAN I CAN SAY ABOUT A LOT OF PEOPLE (Dom, Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:34 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, whozzhizname hasn't shown up yet to get the fun REALLY started

― kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:36 (nineteen years ago)

Eh. If Michael Richards was Japanese, he'd have been here a loooong time ago.

― Noilly Prat (kenan), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:40 (nineteen years ago)

FIFTEEN POSTS TO GO

in which case i'll reduce the count slightly further by saying that gypsy mothra and nabisco's posts (at least, the ones i've read; i might have missed a couple in the melee) have invariably been OT FUCKING M.

it doesn't matter whether the guy's intrinsically a black-hearted racist or he's just a stupid bastard who, even for a moment, thought such a vile response might in some way be valid. what he DID is what mattered; and yeh, as N and GM have said, for the sake of semantic shorthand if nothing else we might as well define him as "racist" because, well, it's shorter than "fucking arsehole". this was a gross and astonishing abuse of power and ... fuck's sake. i don't really have any more to say. i can't believe this argument is still raging.

in other words, I don't know there's any way to make "racism" a strongly negative value, as it should be, without making "racists" a category of (in essence) non-persons, the Evil Other, people outside the social contract who Aren't Like Us who it's OK to hate.

everyone is capable of racist action/"being [a] racist". that's the point - it's a cancer throughout society. we all need to look at ourselves, our tenets, our actions, ALL THE FUCKING TIME, not just point the finger at someone else every so often. what's the answer? stronger laws, maybe? i mean, come on, the guy should be fucking prosecuted for this. i can't see how that isn't happening. (is it happening? maybe so. i feel i have only the vaguest hold on this now.)

bet we've bust 1000 posts while i was typing :(

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:45 (nineteen years ago)

let's keep this going

― gear (gear), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:46 (nineteen years ago)

i mean, come on, the guy should be fucking prosecuted for this.

No.

― Noilly Prat (kenan), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:46 (nineteen years ago)

whyever not?

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:47 (nineteen years ago)

Because he didn't do anything illegal.

― Noilly Prat (kenan), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:48 (nineteen years ago)

wait, are you fucking kidding about the prosecuting thing?

― gbx (skowly), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:48 (nineteen years ago)

can we lock this at 1000?

i think that'd be nice.

― mahalo 4 ur kokua (grady), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:49 (nineteen years ago)

i'm off for a cursory read of this to see what the situation would be if he'd done this in the UK. obviously, what with it being wikipedia, i'll probably end up basing my response on someone else's fundamental misunderstanding, but hey.

xposts: no. sorry, i'm a hardliner. i'd criminalise stupidity if it was up to me :)

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:49 (nineteen years ago)

i think many people are assuming the term "racist" means someone whose entire philosophy revolves are the notion that other races are inferior, worthy of contempt, perhaps even expendable. the argument seems to be that richards doesn't necessarily think these things philosophically, and he just used these words as a way of tipping the scales without thinking of what he was even saying. i think this is weird because the dude seemed pretty contrite albeit completely confused, yet at the same time what the fuck kind of dude says that sort of thing when he loses it except for an unrepentant racist? it's probably a combination of a racial superiority complex, your typical white male comedian's "pushing the envelope on race" meme, plus--possibly--something mentally off in the guy's head.

― gear (gear), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:51 (nineteen years ago)

xpost: wikipedia no use. anyone know enough UK law to give me an idea whether there'd be a case for inciting racial hatred/some other kind of "racially aggravated offence"?

doesn't really matter, of course; just vaguely interested now.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:53 (nineteen years ago)

it's really just a genuinely strange moment because it's not like some awkward rat pack humor, it's really egregious. i really do think something might be wrong with kramer beyond the obvious "asshole" bit.

― gear (gear), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:54 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.blogpocket.com/posts1000peq.jpg

― dommy p is alright WHICH IS A LOT MORE THAN I CAN SAY ABOUT A LOT OF PEOPLE (Dom, Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:56 (nineteen years ago)

i can't really believe there are people that think this should be illegal, no matter how offensive it is.

― gbx (skowly), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:56 (nineteen years ago)

PLZ 2 LOCK THREAD

x-post

dammit we were at such a nice number.

― Hoosteen (Hoosteen), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:58 (nineteen years ago)

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