― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:18 (eighteen years ago) link
― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:18 (eighteen years ago) link
― indolent girl (indolent girl), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:32 (eighteen years ago) link
― Real Goths Don't Wear Black (Enrique), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:34 (eighteen years ago) link
― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:39 (eighteen years ago) link
― A Van That's Loaded With YSI? (noodle vague), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:40 (eighteen years ago) link
Anyway, the desire to have children isn't selfish, it's a basic imperative. We evolved from creatures that wanted children, so of course we do too.
Those of us who don't want children aren't selfish either. Society will always need childless people to pay for the tax breaks of those of you who have bothered to reproduce...
― Stone Monkey (Stone Monkey), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:43 (eighteen years ago) link
― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:44 (eighteen years ago) link
Why doesn't it just mean wanting something for yourself? Not that this is necess. a bad thing. But yeah not wanting kids could be seen as selfish too because either way it's a decision you're making to suit your own interests ahead of others (parents hopes/expectations etc.).
― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:44 (eighteen years ago) link
― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:46 (eighteen years ago) link
― M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:49 (eighteen years ago) link
― Real Goths Don't Wear Black (Enrique), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:49 (eighteen years ago) link
― indolent girl (indolent girl), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:51 (eighteen years ago) link
― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:53 (eighteen years ago) link
― M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:56 (eighteen years ago) link
it's why i said "so-called." i believe in biology (obv) but this notion of "imperatives," well, it's a slippery subject and it gets thrown around in politics a lot by people with dubious science backgrounds. if we're talking about nature taking its course, well that leaves wiggle room for, you know, evolution.
― the man from mars won't eat up bars where the tv's on (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:02 (eighteen years ago) link
O don't, please!!! I've given them up for Lent.
― indolent girl (indolent girl), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:16 (eighteen years ago) link
You have to braise them just so, though.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:17 (eighteen years ago) link
― indolent girl (indolent girl), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:19 (eighteen years ago) link
― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:20 (eighteen years ago) link
― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:22 (eighteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:22 (eighteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:23 (eighteen years ago) link
― Miss Misery xox (MissMiseryTX), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:24 (eighteen years ago) link
― A Van That's Loaded With YSI? (noodle vague), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:25 (eighteen years ago) link
It seems that people are equating "basic imperative" with "having children". This isn't true. Women with full-grown children don't drop dead after menopause.
Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation
Specifically: the first section, which addresses evolution
― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 6 April 2006 16:09 (eighteen years ago) link
― Bernard's Summer Girlfriend (kate), Thursday, 6 April 2006 16:12 (eighteen years ago) link
― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Friday, 7 April 2006 00:36 (eighteen years ago) link
― electric sound of jim (and why not) (electricsound), Friday, 7 April 2006 00:38 (eighteen years ago) link
― someone let this mitya out! (mitya), Friday, 7 April 2006 00:57 (eighteen years ago) link
― gem (trisk), Friday, 7 April 2006 01:09 (eighteen years ago) link
― someone let this mitya out! (mitya), Friday, 7 April 2006 01:10 (eighteen years ago) link
― isadora (isadora), Friday, 7 April 2006 01:17 (eighteen years ago) link
― gem (trisk), Friday, 7 April 2006 01:24 (eighteen years ago) link
of course the right person could well change my mind (eg i would have more than gladly had children with my recent ex but nobody else i've ever dated)
― electric sound of jim (and why not) (electricsound), Friday, 7 April 2006 01:35 (eighteen years ago) link
― gem (trisk), Friday, 7 April 2006 01:47 (eighteen years ago) link
I am baffled that there are people who don't understand or believe the concept that some women are actually NOT AT ALL MATERNAL. It is possible you know.
― Trayce is not a guy! (trayce), Friday, 7 April 2006 01:53 (eighteen years ago) link
Thinking about getting a tubal ligation in fact (I'm 35 - if I'dve tried before now I'm sure the docs would say no. sigh.)
― Trayce is not a guy! (trayce), Friday, 7 April 2006 01:54 (eighteen years ago) link
― suzy (suzy), Friday, 7 April 2006 05:27 (eighteen years ago) link
I've been lucky - I dont often get the usual unthinking responses like "oh you'll change your mind" and "its different when their yours you'll see" and "you're too young to decide that just now", and when I have it has usually been from probably well-meaning but misguided older women, interestingly. My own mother has been great - she came to understand even when I was a teen that I wasnt maternal in the slightest, I guess one's own mother would be able to figure it out after bringing one up.
Men more often than not dont care or are relieved/pleased when I tell them, which leads me to wonder how many men go along with being a father rather than *actively* wanting to be one like many women do. I have only ever had one partner who actively, very much wanted kids. I always make it clear I dont want them and will not be changing my mind.
One lovely, long term couple - two very dear friends of mine - recently broke up because of this very disagreement. Apparently earlier on the woman had said "I want kids" and he'd always thought she was semi-joking. Eventually she'd said "no really, I want kids, and now I really want them" and he totally didnt, and there they were, stuck. They broke up. Its so sad.
― Trayce is not a guy! (trayce), Friday, 7 April 2006 05:49 (eighteen years ago) link
But no, its not for me, it just isnt.
― Trayce is not a guy! (trayce), Friday, 7 April 2006 05:51 (eighteen years ago) link
Most apples are round.
In fact I knew from a young age I didnt want kids. Isn't even that I dont like them - it just doesnt make sense or feel like something I "have" or "want" to do at all.Thinking about getting a tubal ligation in fact (I'm 35 - if I'dve tried before now I'm sure the docs would say no. sigh.)
I can completely understand your point, but an operation like that is final and irreversable, no? Hence why I doctor will not do this for you. There are ample possibilities to avoid pregnancy that are not as final as a tubal ligation. What *if* you do DO change your mind? I realize at this point in time you may think "NEVAH IN MY FRIGGING LIFE!" but you NEVER KNOW. And, no, I don't think you will change your mind... :-)
― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Friday, 7 April 2006 07:19 (eighteen years ago) link
Yes, I am still smarting from that, two years later or whatever.
― Bernard's Summer Girlfriend (kate), Friday, 7 April 2006 08:15 (eighteen years ago) link
― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Friday, 7 April 2006 08:23 (eighteen years ago) link
I fail to see the point of bringing another child into the world when there are so many out there that could do with my love, help and support.
This staggers me. Are you robots?
― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 7 April 2006 08:37 (eighteen years ago) link
Heh heh, like it!
― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 7 April 2006 08:38 (eighteen years ago) link
xpost
― Real Goths Don't Wear Black (Enrique), Friday, 7 April 2006 08:54 (eighteen years ago) link
― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 7 April 2006 09:02 (eighteen years ago) link
If anyone feels swindled for missing out on the grand or so we get off the govt every year "simply for having functioning genitals" (to paraphrase something upthread), well, just see our sprog as a future taxpayer who'll help keep you in Tunnock's Tea Cakes, corned beef sarnies and hip replacements in your dotage. Just helping to broaden out the base of that population pyramid...
― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Friday, 7 April 2006 09:10 (eighteen years ago) link
The funny thing is that this generally only applies to women; I got my vasectomy when I was 25 years old, and no questions were asked. The doctor preferred that my wife sign off on it as well, but it was not required. This is, of course, stems right from the "If a woman doesn't want kids she is a FREAK of NATURE" school of thought, or at least does nothing to make women feel less paranoid about it.
There are ample possibilities to avoid pregnancy that are not as final as a tubal ligation. What *if* you do DO change your mind?
But that's just the point! If you're clear on the matter, none of the other possibilites ARE final and irreversible.
Note that people rarely ask of those eager to have children, or who have recently had them, "What if you have them then change your mind and detest them?"
― phil d. (Phil D.), Friday, 7 April 2006 09:19 (eighteen years ago) link