The Vagaries of Dating The Vagaries of Dating

take her to see '500 days of summer'. groan loudly when zooey is fending off this question.

Good question Kate. I know it's exclusive at the moment and believe I'd be told if there were any plans to change that/if it suddenly changed. I already know that due to complications (divorce, job problems, general hard time) he's not sure whether he wants an LTR right now or not. But he's also asking me whether I want children, how long I'll stay in the US, etc. - like a very upfront compatibility check.

I know really that the best thing to do if I really like him (which I do) is be patient and not ask anything, but that's hard especially as he's immersed in work and I can't see him till October (deadline). At the moment we're just doing email and occasional phone calls, which have got much shorter since the deadline thing kicked in.

xpost love this idea history mayne!

1. Drop the phrase 'my boyfriend' or 'your girlfriend' offhand into the most casual of conversation with him.
2. Check reaction.
3. PROFIT???

I think he would see straight through this.

I mean, just casually refer to him as your boyfriend, not pretend there's another mysterious boyfriend lurking somewhere.

Hrmmm. I know that I'm a cynical bitch and all, but I can't help thinking... does he really like you as much as you really like him? You can say this "ooh, issues due to divorce" and "job problems" and "general hard time" - but the thing is, there will *always* be job stress and hard times.

OK, people can go through bad periods in their life that clear up. But my suspicions are that if he's not OH YAY making time for you and being excited about the relationship when it's fresh and new, is this only going to get worse, rather than better? If you are really excited about a person, you make the time to meet them, even if it's nonstandard dating practices. If a person's priorities are not about having a relationships right now, then taht person won't make the time for that relationship.

But that goes back to the "are your needs getting met?" question to decide whether you're willing to take that chance or not.

"Do you want children" and "How long are you staying in the country" are just standard box-ticking exercises, not indicative of any specific interest in you. I've made that mistake before. It's like the relationship equivalent of asking what team you support or something. Doesn't mean anything more than that.

give him a note that says "do u want to be my boyfriend?" with YES and NO checkboxes.

MAYBE????

Seriously, there are still people in this world so stunted as to be actively scared if the person they were seeing referred to them as their "boyfriend"?!

Jesusfuck.

Yeah Kate, this is exactly my thinking which is why I'd rather knock it on the head now if I'm much more interested than he is. But then there are those that argue that blokes can be cautious, that if I play it cool things will develop, etc. Basically just trying to give it a chance rather than kill it now, but planning ahead for the awful moment when I think 'right, time to have this conversation' and can't find the right words.

if it all goes tits-up, I'm anticipating it'll be 'right person, wrong time' type conversation though I don't really believe in that...

No such thing as the right person ;-)

Good luck with all that! If he has slight but tacit commitment issues then the best thing to do would be to completely win him over, maybe by arranging a really lovely evening out and then professing your affection in as forceful a manner as your English breeding permits :D

See I think this would scare him off, but seeing as it would be a last resort anyway, why not I guess!

Obviously I mean say something like "You know what, you're a really great guy" while staring into his eyes (but only if you mean it!)

No offense, Louis, but I think, with a committmentophobe (if he is one) that would be the WORST thing you could possibly do.

I don't think ljub is painting him as a commitmentophobe, just a guy with mixed priorities. Hence, a show of genuine affection (in an exclusive affair) would probably work.

'So is this thing a thing?'

I think... with a committmentophobe you kind of have to play games with them to make them realise how awesome *you* are and make them chase you.

But I'm rubbish at that kind of thing as I can't stand game-playing. (And it goes against my natural instincts to be a chaser myself.)

But commitmentophobes really kind of rely on that idea that if they make themselves unavailable, then partners will chase them. Take away that crutch and then they have to grow up and deal. Maybe?

I make a rubbish relationship counseller, really. I've found that the only actual long term things I've had were the ones where there never *had* to be The Conversation. Where it was understood by both that it was a Thing. The need to have The Conversation is kind of a sign of insecurity - either lack of confidence in the relationship or lack of confidence in ones own self.

But this probably isn't very good advice, I've no idea.

oh I would mean it (re looking-into-eyes). I am torn between Kate's old skool thinking and the honesty-is-best-policy option - but not until all other options are exhausted. Yeah, not a commitmentophobe, mixed priorities is the thing, but maybe still need to make him chase. I'm no good at it though.

Oh NickB, that's actually pretty great. I might use it.

What I'm saying, Louis, is there is NO SUCH THING as a person with mixed priorities. If having a relationship with a person is a priority, an interested person will make the time.

A person who is constantly chasing is never going to be a priority, because you can take them for granted.

1. Drop the phrase 'my boyfriend' or 'your girlfriend' offhand into the most casual of conversation with him.
2. Check reaction.
3. PROFIT???

I would actually say this, but instead of a conversation with him, make it a phone conversation with someone else when you're with him.

"Oh I'm just out shopping with my/the BOYFRIEND SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEE."

Bear in mind, that I have never operated in that old skool way. I have always operated the "honesty is the best policy" kind of "let's talk about it and constantly establish where we are coz I am so insecure" policy. I am now a single woman in my late 30s. Your mileage may vary.

I am seriously going to shut up now.

So have I, with the same result at the same age. This is my maiden attempt at game-playing.

Well, I'm suggesting there ought to be a Moment rather than a Conversation, but it's still fine if there's a Conversation and it is brazened out. Some people prefer to have it laid out like that.

NickB's suggestion is vague and meaningful enough to work on the right level implied by its tone of voice/eye contact, good one

looool Nick11 yeah do everything suggested by a person called Nick basically

I do think it's possible to have mixed time priorities, but once the dude's turmoil has dulled, that is when this Moment/Conversation should happen, and these priorities can be rectified

Really there's not much need for actual game-playing. As far as I can see.

Oh NickB, that's actually pretty great. I might use it.

Well, obviously I take pride in my articulacy in these situations.

I've found that the only actual long term things I've had were the ones where there never *had* to be The Conversation.

maybe this was true for you but it was def not for me and for a lot of ppl i know.

'thing thing thing a thing'

I guess it was more "I didn't have to force a conversation". There was definitely some talking between the first shag and the "OK, I want you to move in with me" but it wasn't me going ARGH ARHG ARE WE DATING ARE WE INVOLVED WHAT ARE WE DOING as a constant panic.

Also, perhaps I am being harsh - things change as you get older. But I don't think there are any *absolutely* immovable priorities except for perhaps already existent children.

I don't know how long you've been seeing this guy, but the idea that someone would put the thing on hold for a month would make me go do something else for a month (not even necessarily dating someone else, just DO something else, take up macrame classes or get a DJ residency or something) and if he's still around at the end is up to him.

Yep Kate, this 'we just know' is my ideal but CAD, yes, this is why I haven't thrown in the towel yet - hope that complicated thangs can still be good thangs, especially once everyone's in their late 30s and sometimes their lives are not straightforward.

You know, this has actually been really helpful and given me a bit of perspective and even something to say (that can be said with raised eyebrows and a smile rather than a look of blind panic). Hell LJ, I am even looking forward to the Moment, however it turns out. (sorry Nick11, I am politely disregarding your suggestion though enjoying the mental picture).

Yeah this month I am mostly working and looking out for a friend who is having a really hard time, but also trying to get out and meet people a bit more.

oh re how long: since early June, but only seen him 5 or 6 times in that whole period - I was away in the UK, he thinks he's gonna get sacked if he doesn't meet this FY's deadlines, etc.

I trust there was enough chemistry to suggest that a union would Work? Conversation spilling on and on without you noticing? Genuine tenderness?

Seriously, there are still people in this world so stunted as to be actively scared if the person they were seeing referred to them as their "boyfriend"?!

I dated one last year! He told me he wasn't my boyfriend in front of his friends at the bar. I yelled at him in the street outside on the way home. Should have left right then, but I'm a sucker.

I think using words like "commitmentphobe" and "game-playing" when this guy is coming through a divorce is really unfair, btw. You can hardly blame him for being cautious.

I'd say "see where it goes but try not to put too much emotional pressure on it early on" is the way forward. If it's going to work out, it will.

Rose by any other name would not taste so sweet
You only want me with no expectations to meet

Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is meine NOYFRIEND

What's in a label, what's in a name
Why can't you say it, are you ashamed
Categorise the microgenres of life
Somewhere between a stranger and a wife

Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is meine NOYFRIEND

Friends with benefits, fuckbuddy, bitch
Booty call or scratch that itch
Boyfriend, lover, partner, date
Commonlaw wife (in certain states)

Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is meine NOYFRIEND

Constructive *and* helpful!

But hey, if the internet has already decreed that this dude is an emotionally stunted commitmentphobe, so be it.

I've found that the only actual long term things I've had were the ones where there never *had* to be The Conversation. Where it was understood by both that it was a Thing. The need to have The Conversation is kind of a sign of insecurity - either lack of confidence in the relationship or lack of confidence in ones own self.

But this probably isn't very good advice, I've no idea.

― Evren Kader (Masonic Boom), Friday, 11 September 2009

no - this is good advice imo. I don't really see the point in The Conversation

What I'm saying, Louis, is there is NO SUCH THING as a person with mixed priorities. If having a relationship with a person is a priority, an interested person will make the time.

Disagree here though. Sometimes I really can't decide if I want tea or beer - I know once I've had one that i'll stick with that for the evening because the other won't taste right. But beforehand I'm not sure

eh i could just as easily go the other way and say not having "the conversation" is a sign that u are not really prepared to communicate honestly and openly.

you could! differing perceptions of the same thing

I guess for me stuff is always implicit - for others not so much

it's just pers experience really, a lot if times i thought something was implicit in a relationship it turned out to be something we needed to talk about--now i feel like i know better.

But hey, if the internet has already decreed that this dude is an emotionally stunted commitmentphobe, so be it.

Not entirely sure if that has been decreed. My point was really that if "boyfriend" is what he feels like to ljubljana, then chances are that's how he sees himself as well. "Boyfriend" hardly denotes ring-on-finger-level-commitment, does it? Why would he be afraid of it?

LJ - yes, definitely chemistry. Conversation spilling on and on - check. Genuine tenderness? Check, though tender not lovey-dovey, and tempered with a LOT of caution - a lid is being kept on it. Also forgot to mention pillow talk a couple of times along the lines of 'I'm getting into this a bit quickly'.

Matt DC - he's definitely not a commitmentphobe. I do believe in such a thing as bad times. I also believe that if the thang is really, really good, it'll transcend them. But I think you have to have a lot of patience, understanding and self-belief to make that happen, and I am not full of these qualities so am trying very hard. I also believe that all this patient understanding can easily mask 'he's just not that into you'. So of course I'm veering between believing he's JNTIM and believing it's worth at least a shot at just being understanding and patient.

Did I mention we met on OKC? I don't think either of us expected to meet anyone we liked so much so quickly on there. We were both anticipating more a strung-out series of 'social' dates, make new friends, hope something works out eventually.

I think it goes...

Patient waiting phase till mid-October (to allow for post-deadline recovery phase, sleeping, catching up with friends etc.)
Catching up phase till mid-November, hoping that things get clearer
Moment!
Moment didn't get you anywhere? Conversation! (on a different occasion)
Key part: *accept whatever happens from there and don't whinge* (except on here)

Jesus, I'm bad at living with uncertainty.

wait, so this guy is just getting out of a serious relationship? I doubt he's a commitment-phobe since he was married. He probably wants some time and space to figure things out before jumping into another serious relationship ...

He was married, she left over two years ago, but it was a drawn-out split in a number of ways. Actual decree nisi came through a week or so before I met him.

I am going away for the w/end now but please carry on without me and feel free to amend my timeline above :-)