Let's talk about Vice Magazine

So who's going to walk into Art Fag Mondays and tell DJ Amy 'I'm not, um, 'gay' myself, but I really think you should change the name of this place. It's degrading!'

which words? and how? why? when? with who in mind? while keeping a cautious eye out for which elements? oh, fuck it, i'd rather lick matted menses out of dyke pubes while getting sucked off at the jewboy afro hair day at the fag salon than think about this gay shit, but that's okay, everyone knows the vice "scene" includes every gay/black/jewish/left-leaning person living at present.

how's this, Momus: "I'm gay myself, and I really think you should change the name of this place. It's degrading!" ?

Better not to use the word at all than throw one more coal onto the fires of pent up rage and pain of the Ivan Julians of the world (cf. aforementioned bangs piece where he describes hearing it like shrapnel lodging in his stomach).

This doesn't mean that I am going to write letters to Vice complaining. I find them and what they pander to repellent, but fine.

Momus you're a dope half the time because you automatically equate moral disapproval with censorship and shock value with merit.

Nabiso - are you saying adults should be judged by the same standards as 8 year olds then?

why oh why am I having the sudden urge to play (LOUD) You'll Dance To Anything by the Dead Milkmen?

This reminds me of Nitsuh's comments on the 'Is Bush An Idiot' thread. He wanted the people who voted Nader to outline their longterm vision for the positive outcome a Nader vote might bring. And he got frustrated because nobody seemed even to have thought in those terms.

Here I'm actually being somewhat Naderite, in a sense, and saying that I believe the word 'fag' can be totally revalued *for the whole community* within a few short years, and that this victory, which I believe is both important and inevitable, is worth the short-term risk (of Democrats losing votes, in the Nader case, or of a peceived -- but illusory -- temporary *increase* in homophobia, in this case).

I refuse to pick one of Momus's hypothetical scenarios because they're fucking stupid. I freely invite Momus to walk into a room filled with my relatives or my wife's relatives and start throwing the word "nigger" around because he desperately needs the beatdown.

Sterling's name has never been more appropriate

Why should it? What's so great about that word?

Jesus, Momus, you can't claim both that the usage is for the scene, and is being carefully handled by licensed word-smiths, AND it's for the community (which I'm assuming is at least the 90% of the US outside NY), where it will bring great healing. Make your mind up.

also, since when did stockholm syndrome redeem a word?

We (and by 'we' I mean fags, non-fags, art fags and Vice readers) are a lot quicker and more creative when it comes to messing with language than Bushites in pickup trucks.

You are, at very best, not paying enough attention to the people you speak for.

Momus, have you seen Kentucky Fried Movie?

It starts on the scene (and it's not all thought-out, it just happens because of stuff like camp and irony) and spreads out from there. I don't see any contradiction here.

Momus, this whole "blunting" word-reclamation idea is like a man telling his wife that if he rapes her very carefully every night it won't be as terrible when someone does it for
real.

Nabisco, who's being silly now? Come on, what did you make of my reference to your point on the Nader / Bush thread?

So yes, I think the Nader-thread comparison is spot-on: what is this meant to accomplish, beyond making money tittillating people by saying words they don't think they're allowed to hear?

So let's also add that his "recontextualization" scheme is preaching to a choir -- it has no effect on the people who claim these as actually-hateful words apart from giving them the impression that they're completely right and even the fags and the niggers can see that.

If a person uses it in conversation with me it depends again. If they're not black, well, firm request and if they don't stop or seem to relish it I usually stop talking to them but this happens rarely. If they're black, as I said, most black people who use the word still often don't do it talking to people who aren't, and hardly anybody really minds of I ask 'em not to. I mean it's a respect thing. If I respect you, I don't wanna hear language that disrespects yourself. (er, grammar allowing for clarity of thought there). & if you respect me, you're just sensitive to that whether or not I go through a whole round of argument with you on the generalities of it.

Also two days ago I was driving with my girlfriend and her little sister (13) who allovasudden starts quoting Busta Rhymes lyrics and uses the word and we both just got sort of shocked and gave her a talking to. The thing that she knows better than to ever use the word to refer to herself, but she doesn't quite get what it means in a broader social context, just that it's somehow "forbidden". She's also got a nearly completely white group of friends and is in somewhat of a bubble as to what it means to be black beyond a suburban jr. high.

I don't know the point of that story.