defend the indefensible: sylvia plath

I dreamt he drove me back to the asylum

I dreamt he drove me back to the asylum
Straight after lunch: we stood then at one end,
A sort of cafeteria behind, my friend
Behind me, nuts in groups about the room;
A dumbwaiter with five shelves was waiting (some-
thing's missing here) to take me up - I bend
And lift a quart of milk to hide and tend,
Take with me. Everybody is watching, dumb.

I try to put it first among some worm-
shot volumes of the N.E.D. I had
On the top shelf - then somewhere else... slowly
Lise comes up in a matron's uniform
And with a look (I saw once) infinitely sad
In her grey eyes takes it away from me.

The terrible pathos of this poem convinces you that this was a real dream, not Berryman making one up. An Italian sonnet, effortlessly accommodating a very conversational syntax.

29 for me

There sat down, once, a thing on Henry's heart
só heavy, if he had a hundred years
& more, & weeping, sleepless, in all them time
Henry could not make good.
Starts again always in Henry's ears
the little cough somewhere, an odour, a chime.

And there is another thing he has in mind
like a grave Sienese face a thousand years
would fail to blur the still profiled reproach of. Ghastly,
with open eyes, he attends, blind.
All the bells say: too late. This is not for tears;
thinking.

But never did Henry, as he thought he did,
end anyone and hacks her body up
and hide the pieces, where they may be found.
He knows: he went over everyone, & nobody's missing.
Often he reckons, in the dawn, them up.
Nobody is ever missing.

All sorts of conflicted about Plath. Loved her at 15, hated by 18, and on through my early 20s.

Ha, I have the same pattern! Except if "on through early 20s" meaning liking again but with a different appreciation.

I forgot how much I loved poetry...I quit interfacing with it six/seven years ago. I'm coming back to it and it's like eating this wonderful meal your aunt used to serve, going back and visiting after years and getting all that force and pleasure back again.

"Interfacing"?

Sure?

thk abbott means reading

or engaging

interfacing's a word

reading/writing/engaging/thinking baout

Sorry.

I still think you are the bee's knees.

This thread turned into something good, with these Berryman poems.

A stray thought I had while reading it, though: in particular, w/r/t Plath vs Hughes. Why do we end up in these dichotomies so often? I mean, I'm not holding myself above anyone here -- I have no doubt I've fallen into the same trap, and often (*cough* ILM lists) -- but it seems really odd that we have to pit like against like so often. We can love both, right? My stray (or maybe strained would be a better word, lol) thought, actually, was that it reminded me of endless arguments (on ILM and IRL) between Joy Division and New Order, and how I've basically given up trying to compare them in terms of value. If Arial = Closer, then The Hawk in the Rain = Movement and (I don't know) Crow = Technique and it's all good (although Hughes, like NO, has a much larger catalogue, with more room for embarrassing missteps).

In shorter form, why can't we enjoy and engage with something on its own terms, and leave it at that?

Without Ted Hughes we would not have

http://www.mymovie-downloads.com/images/iron_giant.jpg

In shorter form, why can't we enjoy and engage with something on its own terms, and leave it at that?

― Lostandfound, Wednesday, August 26, 2009 2:54 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

There's a lot of snobbery toward the 'known' poets because people want to appear as if they are smarter/wiser/more well-read then the masses. In poetry's case it is especially destructive because readers are so few already.

Countless times I have been turned off by a poet at first read only to have them become a favorite later. Some of that is from poor teachers, mostly its from that ingrained eagerness to be a cynical dick.

Re: Iron Giant: I've never read the original Hughes story, although I love the movie. Was the film faithful or did it deviate a lot, other than obvious details (location, etc)?

xpost

Yeah, I like the "known" poets, but I also love to explore what others have dug up, on threads like these. I seem to remember discovering an ILX thread simply devoted to great poems and I was in an ecstasy of c&p for awhile! I don't know if I'm widely read, but I do know I'm not particularly deeply read if that makes sense.

Oh, I suppose I should say that I love a lot of Plath's work, mostly her poems but The Bell Jar has its moments, and I'm at a loss figuring our how she is "indefensible". Her legacy, maybe, but not her writing.

(Weird, I just used the phrase "I love" in all three of those last posts, must be in a good mood or something.)

There's a lot of snobbery toward the 'known' poets because people want to appear as if they are smarter/wiser/more well-read then the masses. In poetry's case it is especially destructive because readers are so few already.

And in most cases I'll applaud a best-selling poet. For about twenty years Robert Frost was probably the best we had (then again, I'm tainted because I've loved Frost since my mom got me a children's collection of Frost's verse at 12).

Re: Iron Giant: I've never read the original Hughes story, although I love the movie. Was the film faithful or did it deviate a lot, other than obvious details (location, etc)?

Movie was absolutely nothing like the book. Like, to the point where I don't even know why they bothered to credit the Hughes book as the source material. That 50s paranoia stuff was just all made up for the movie. In the book, a STAR SPIRIT lands on Australia and the Iron Man has to defeat it. That would have been a way cooler movie.

That would have been a way cooler movie.

challops. THE IRON GIANT could not be improved in any way.

Frost is one who definitely comes to mind. Too much emphasis on symbolism when its taught, and too quickly dismissed because of his name.

most of my problems with contemporary best-selling poets are that i find their work so facile, obvious, and sentimental that i can't help but consider them pulp/pap. i think that one must also take into consideration the fact that most poets who pooh-pooh their more popular/successful contemporaries are not simply jealous, but upset that the mass-market book industry (and tbh, if you're mark doty or billy collins, you're mass-market, sorry) completely passes over more original, interesting and innovative work for what will sell. it's an old problem in many creative fields, of course, but one that is made much more stark in these seemingly anti-poetry times.

the only mass-market poet worth anything nowadays, imho, is Jorie Graham.

barely related: after being denied his usual 3 stories before bedtime as a punishment, my 2 year old nephew asked "not even a poem?" <3 <3 <3

i mean, do you know who the best-selling poets of our times are? Mattie J Stepanek (that sickly child who writes poems about heaven), Billy Collins, and Mary Oliver. while a child can be forgiven for crimes against all that is good in poetry, the latter two are totally indefensible, imo.

(that is awesome, bnw)

Jorie Graham's verse consists _________ of _______ lots of -------- blanks.

I do own and enjoy The End of Beauty.

if you're one of those people who aren't into the play of white space on the page, alfred, i don't think we can be friends.

her book "Swarm" is my favorite, highly recommended to all.

those berryman poems are awesome--i've never looked at him

In shorter form, why can't we enjoy and engage with something on its own terms, and leave it at that?

― Lostandfound, Wednesday, August 26, 2009 2:54 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

ppl best understand things in their relations to other things; when the tyranny of coincidence has a wife w/a tragic story marry a feted poet, it's hard to resist engaging tht way but I get yr point

if you're one of those people who aren't into the play of white space on the page, alfred, i don't think we can be friends.

Well, you DO love Lowell. Sabers out.

how is matthea harvey regarded by you dudes?

who are your favourite modern poets, table is a table?

i mean, do you know who the best-selling poets of our times are?

Thing is, most people have no clue. Do we want to compare Billy Collins sales to Dan Brown?

Both Collins and Mary Oliver are easily defensible imo. I'd much rather have people reading them then not reading poetry at all. Hate the work, don't hate the sales. p.s. you forgot Jewel.

:)

Contemporary poets....

More lyric stuff: Kazim Ali, Martha Collins, Anne Carson.

More out-there stuff: Lisa Robertson, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, Elizabeth Robinson, Laura Mullen, Eileen Myles, Kim Rosenfield, Jill Magi, Kevin Davies.

More conceptual stuff: Christian Bok, Kenny Goldsmith, Vanessa Place.

i could go on and on. i'm a bookworm.

pls do; are those all american?

lol britishes

some Canadians here and there...

now i'll just list:
Bruce Andrews, Kevin k*ll*an, Jessica Grim, Jena Osman, Kathleen Fraser, Nathaniel Mackey, Kamau Brathwaite, Jacques Roubaud, Lytton Smith, E. Tracey Grinnell, Stan Apps, Juliana Spahr, Jared Stanley, Peter Culley, Ben Lerner's first book, Mark Wunderlich's first book, Dennis Cooper's older stuff......

and of course, a lot of young poets who don't have much out yet except chapbooks.

don't give us it, bnw

thx, ttitt

the cool thing about poets is if you can google their email address (usually at a school) they'll respond 97.83% of the time.

some living American poets I like:

Rae Armantrout (probably my fave), Aaron Kunin, Claudia Rankine, Charles Simic, Ashbery (duh)

I am pals with, and hence biased about:

Mon1ca Youn, St3ve Burt, Mark Wunderl1ch

i love Rae's older stuff, and saw Aaron give a fucking amazing reading a couple weeks back....

ppl best understand things in their relations to other things; when the tyranny of coincidence has a wife w/a tragic story marry a feted poet, it's hard to resist engaging tht way but I get yr point

Yeah, I don't want to overstate that point, and I'm not uninterested in their unique backstory, it's just that (as with JD and NO) I've largely given up trying to decide which one is better.

thinking maybe a separate thread to post poems we like, talk baout poetry, stuff like that?

so this thread can go back to hatin' on/stanning for/zinging in the vicinity of plath?