The Substance (2024; Dir:Coralie Fargeat)

saw this yesterday and i'm still not really sure how i felt about it. it was hard not to think about Poor Things - Qualley is in both obviously but also the idea of placing an old consciousness in a new body, the use of fisheye lens, the setting that's out of time, the heavily stylized sets, but mostly the very heavy-handed satire/social commentary. i was worried that my opinion of The Substance would follow the same path as my opinion of Poor Things, a movie i enjoyed while in the theater but quickly thought less of once i was not watching it. so i was glad that The Substance picked up in the second half and got more gonzo, because it got a lot more fun at that point.

i laughed a lot at the movie. Demi Moore was truly excellent throughout, i was really impressed at her ability to handle the extreme aspects of the movie while also the rare subtler moments (OK the date preparation scene is not really subtle from a screenwriting perspective but her performance was relatively subtle in that moment). Qualley and Quaid were good too but in less challenging roles.

the directing and screenwriting were frustrating, they were just so bludgeoning in hammering home the themes of the movie, repeating the same images and spelling out connections that were already obvious, although there were some great images and ideas too. asking for The Substance to be subtler seems like a mistake but i wish it trusted the viewer more. also i know "it could have been shorter" is such a basic complaint but this could have easily been shorter.

i don't know, i think i liked it?

my biggest question is how are elizabeth and sue "one person" (as gets repeated over and over) if they have separate consciousnesses and goals and physical appearances? what does elizabeth ever get out of using the substance? she doesn't really get to live vicariously through sue since she doesn't have any of those experiences or feelings?

someone upthread mentioned an interpretation of the movie as being about mothers and daughters, which would make more sense given the setup of how the matrix/other self relationship works, but it's not really pointed to in the movie itself unfortunately

i feel like my only path to fully enjoying this is accepting it as a dumb fun extreme body horror movie. which is fine!

my biggest question is how are elizabeth and sue "one person" (as gets repeated over and over) if they have separate consciousnesses and goals and physical appearances? what does elizabeth ever get out of using the substance? she doesn't really get to live vicariously through sue since she doesn't have any of those experiences or feelings?

― na (NA), Monday, September 23, 2024 11:49 AM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

they don't have separate consciousnesses!

have you ever had to begrudgingly take responsibility for the actions of your manic and/or depressed self? that's the dynamic here

in this respect maybe the movie is too subtle bc a lot of people are struggling with this

remember they are one!!!! lol

i guess fundamentally i don’t think this movie hates its main character(s). the scene that convinced me of that was demi moore getting ready for a date, a scene i have lived thousands of times

― ivy., Monday, 23 September 2024 14:20 (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

This was a great scene. Arguably the central and most devastating moment of the film despite all the hi-falutin stuff going on around it

my biggest question is how are elizabeth and sue "one person" (as gets repeated over and over) if they have separate consciousnesses and goals and physical appearances? what does elizabeth ever get out of using the substance? she doesn't really get to live vicariously through sue since she doesn't have any of those experiences or feelings?

― na (NA), Monday, 23 September 2024 16:49 (eleven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Isn't that kind of the whole point of the film though? Technically they are one person, one mind, as the mysterious dealer keeps reminding her. But increasingly it's a Jekyll and Hyde thing. Elisabeth is hooked on being Sue, even though it becomes increasingly obvious that she is a Tyler Durden of sorts.

As ivy says, it's that hangover, that reckoning one gets from past actions. Drink and drug dependency works a similar way. In fact the whole thing could just as well be viewed as an allegory for addiction as it is a commentary on ageing, the fickleness of the entertainment industry, and the validation-seeking mindset

i have never met an internally consistent person, lemme know if anyone does

As with the Civil War thread, I'm wary of reading perhaps a bit too much into films like this, or taking the ideas too literally.
Sure it's an allegory with some not-so-subtle things to say about society and the world we live in. But it's also a ridiculously OTT body horror sci-fi and should be appreciated as that too.

While there was nothing subtle about the execution of the film, I didn't feel like the themes were telegraphed in an especially heavy-handed way. And if it had been changed into an overly didactic allegory full of DO YOU SEE? moments, it would have gotten in the way of a pretty fun schlocky picture.

i keep typing up responses and deleting them, ultimately i feel like i already said how i feel about the movie so i'll leave it there. it's been a long time since i've seen a movie and still not known the next day exactly how i felt about it, which ultimately is probably a good thing.

Sorry, didn't mean to come across as condescending as my last post might have read.

I have to say, when Elisabeth turns into Sue and it's revealed it isn't a younger version of herself but a totally different person, that threw me a bit because, well, maybe I was expecting a Death Becomes Her-style makeover with CGI. But I think the whole conceit of two very different people sharing a mind works in the end.

At first, my brain was pondering the conceit of it— “what would I do in Elisabeth’s situation?”— probably start leaving some notes for Sue and requesting the same, for example— but the film seemed determined to shut down any connection between its reality and irl reality. “The New Years Show” and all the wilfully placeholder elements to the setting called to mind Lars “I’ve never set foot in America” Von Trier’s usage of a black stage in Dogville in his own USA critique cinema. By the end, the film was so strenuous in its demands that I sever and relationship between its allegory and my personal experience/interpretation (the hilarious shareholders tableau, tits onstage) that I entered into a trance of gory delight at it all— my brain turned off and just lol’d at the boobs and butts and blood.

What was that sync on the bloodbath scene? Some kind of speed metal thing? It was so good. I read the credits and saw Anna Von Hausswolff had a track in there, yay Anna!

oh was that anna?!!!! i was losing my goddamn mind at that point

i agree, everything about it is hyperreal, from the Netflixy patina of the apartment to the American Apparel-ness of the studio. Nothing feels quite right in this world

it is sooo funny that the talk show is called “the show” and the network is called “the network”

Ahhh it was “Ugly And Vengeful” from Dead Magic. Brilliant sync, brilliant score too

i died in this movie

the french cooking segment was almost too much for me to handle

my gay demi moore loving soul was fluttering on the precipice of extinction

it is sooo funny that the talk show is called “the show” and the network is called “the network”

― ivy., Tuesday, September 24, 2024 7:59 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

lol 🙂

Wisdom

A genuine problem with Megalopolis is that the primary antagonist is a corrupt and weird mayor of New York who, despite Coppola's best efforts, is not nearly as corrupt or weird as our real mayor Eric Adams.

— Zach Schonfeld (@zzzzaaaacccchhh) September 24, 2024

xp Not to mention a giant billboard just saying "NEW SHOW COMING SOON"

and it's RIGHT OUTSIDE her apartment window. It took me a while to realise it was a billboard and not a poster she'd put up. Also LOL at having a giant picture of yourself in your underwear on display in your apartment

I'm thinking about the hyperreality of this film, and how there are echoes of another Cronenberg film, eXistenZ, in here. Because that's kind of what's happening here isn't it? When Elisabeth becomes Sue, she's essentially using her as a virtual reality avatar and getting hooked on the delusion.

Another thing going on here is that despite Quaid's obvious vileness, misogyny, corruption and disdain for Elisabeth as a person, Sue still gets up in the morning and goes to work, even gives it 110% even though she (as Elisabeth) KNOWS that Sue is being exploited and will one day get dropped in exactly the same way.

One would think that if you'd had your past successes and were suddenly granted the chance to re-live your 20s, you would spend your youth more wisely than doing workout videos on TV (or just working your job in the same way as you had before). But this isn't the case with Sue - she willingly goes back to the Network, smiles for Quaid and his droogs, and does all this while Elisabeth watches on with a mixture of jealousy and horror.

Can’t stop thinking about how French The Substance was. Coralie, you can’t have topless dancers on network television in America lol

— ali golub 🌼 (@alibrooke4ever) September 23, 2024

i can never tell if people who say stuff like this are being serious or not

i just don't know if i'll ever recover from this film

it may have just hit at that right time that it's now going to be permanently ingrained in my dna as an operating agent in the universe

Would you say that you and the film… are one?

Maintain the balance

lol the balance will def be the death of me

it’s big thumbs down from flopson on this one

satire was at the lowest level possible. broad, cartoony, almost entirely unfunny. it reminded me of the depiction of mattell corp in the greta gerwig barbie movie, when will ferrel’s walking around surrounded by the board of executives. the fact that the satire is also so dated—which tbf is internally consistent, as its set in a dreamlike alt-1980s—but it’s datedness just reinforces that the satire is just a thin veneer for its hagsploitation

baffling that a script this underwritten won best screenplay at cannes. the food bags are labeled “food matrix” and “food other person”, the billboard for qualley’s tv show says “new show” (and the show itself is called “pump it up”), the new years special is called “the new years show”. also the constant callbacks to earlier scenes that bonk you over the head with overexplanations of things that were too obvious to begin with (“she’d look better with tits where her nose was” as a monster with tits for a nose is on screen). also sooo fucking long and it dragged like hell throughout the middle and end

baffling that a script this underwritten won best screenplay at cannes. the food bags are labeled “food matrix” and “food other person”, the billboard for qualley’s tv show says “new show” (and the show itself is called “pump it up”), the new years special is called “the new years show”

again all of this is so funny

other things that are so funny: dennis quaid saying “furs!”; dennis quaid

the audience at my screening was in uproarious laughter throughout the entire film

i don't think that's underwriting i think that's intentional humor

it reminded me of the depiction of mattell corp in the greta gerwig barbie movie, when will ferrel’s walking around surrounded by the board of executives

That in itself felt like a shout out to Terry Gilliam's Brazil

baffling that a script this underwritten won best screenplay at cannes. the food bags are labeled “food matrix” and “food other person”, the billboard for qualley’s tv show says “new show” (and the show itself is called “pump it up”), the new years special is called “the new years show”

I agree this is kind of the joke - the whole thing is meant to be cartoonish, broad etc. So much product these days is marketed exactly like the Substance. Huel, for example.

I liked the way you had this really quite complicated (and painful-looking) kit - enormous hypodermic needles, tubes that look more like USB cables, packets of globby custard - all packaged together in this neat do-it-yourself Hello Fresh box with instructions in this big, simplistic (but domineering) typeface.

"Food Other Person" seemed quite deliberately ambiguous - which one is the "other person"?

Yeah there were one or two unnecessary callbacks that weren't necessary, but it was hardly the SAW movies. That "tits where her nose was" line didn't really work at all.

Yeah I liked the home meal kit design and vague IKEA instructions for the most dangerous procedure imaginable.

movie's about ibs bc every time i'm about to fuck some motorcycle-riding goon it's like my real self starts emerging from the bathroom

idk why but i feel like many ppl are pretending we don’t live in a culture that teaches women to hate themselves. this movie exists in the most heightened-reality version of that culture possible in order to sledgehammer its point home. it is not subtle. it is also a deliriously fun ride

Pretty much my take! May seem random but I most thought of Carax's Annette at points -- Ron and Russell know their LA, certainly, but Carax's choices on how to film and stage the US-set hyperrealities there (I mean, the Super Bowl is called the Hyper Bowl) had a weird echo here for me. So leave it to the French, I guess. Meatcleaver satire not rapier but it works because it's just that, sent to an extreme. (I did wonder if Elisabeth arranged to have her house cleaner take time off or something; there's something to the point that the only two known clients are white folks. And I did love how her apartment is seemingly amazing but right outside it seems more 'normal' in the hallway much like the jerk neighbor is, and how they can just put up a billboard outside to ruin the view -- a view which separately kept making me think of the bombs-about-to-drop opening of Fallout.)

Thought both Demi and Margaret were great down the line. Quaid playing a straight asshole version of Fred Schneider was kinda perfect too (seriously, the combination of hair and outfits had me thinking that throughout the film). I did love the pure 1930s 'urgh a monster!' reactions from the audience, carefully spaced.

I thought this was great. Kind of like "Dorian Gray" if the portrait resented its owner? It also brought to mind a bunch of other stuff, like "The Fly" and "Society" and (more recently) "Infinity Pool," one of lots of doppelganger films, fore of mind as a contemporary trend since reading Naomi Klein's incisive "Doppelganger" a while back.

I thought the Hollywood "satire" was the weakest aspect, though the more I think about it the more I believe that nothing in this movie's world is entirely real as depicted, and instead it's all being distorted by Elizabeth's extreme dysmorphia. There's a telling if fleeting bit toward the end when she returns to the studio in her final form and, from her POV, we witness all the fans and well-wishers only to be quickly shown that they don't exist. They are what she *wants*, as is the specific body-affirming job she doggedly pursues, which might explain why, given a do-over, she returns to the same disgusting people and industry. It's the unrealistic bar of affirmation and adulation set by her disorder. For sure that partly explains this bizarro world where a fitness instructor is the peak of celebrity that would be tapped to host a boobs-out (in several senses) New Year's Eve show.

That said, I did wonder if the film might have worked better, or been a tad more subtle (not that it needed subtlety) had it not been set in some ott version of Hollywood, which of course has always valued image and looks and youth and whatnot, and instead been set someplace more mundane, like an office or law firm or someplace ... normal, where many people still regularly face the same demons of self-loathing or the pressure of appearances, just not in a place literally focused mostly on looks. It's interesting (maybe) that the only other person we know taking the substance is 1) male and 2) working in a much less glamorous profession. In fact, it made me wonder to what extent the substance (in so far as we're meant to think too deeply/logically about it at all) actually exists and is not just a manifestation of the aforementioned disorder. Those voices she hears, in her apartment, at the back-alley PO box, they're of course not "real," but she hears them all the same. Or when Sue pulls out the chicken leg; it's not "real," it can't be by any standard of physiology, it's a manifestation of her disgust and self-loathing after binging.

Anyway, lots to think about. I liked her last movie a lot, too, makes me want to watch it again while this one sloshes around.

My favorite detail: I noticed all the cars in the movie were vintage. Nothing new, afaict, just classic cars shining *like* new.

This movie rocks

Complaining about the shallowness of the satire is kind of moot point since the whole thing played like those '80s wild-swing satires like They Live, Society, Repo Man and Eating Raoul. It's like complaining that the Toxic Avenger didn't say enough about pollution

I didn't think of this as a Hollywood satire, I just think the Hollywood satire component of it was the weakest and most obvious and least original aspect. (And I did mention "Society.")

Its so funny that I went into this only knowing, like, a picture of Demi Moore with smeared makeup and that it was a Fantastic Fest thing. I assumed it was going to be another of the 87-minute horror movies I always watch with my Alamo Drafthouse Season Pass and then it was this 140 minute disorienting pukefest

I watched the first part of this movie on Halloween night as a nod to Halloween. That night I was surprised and delighted to have many trick-or-treaters for the first time in a while.

But I think because of my distressed mental state at the time, I couldn't finish it. The purposeful lack of a backstory and the generic story line, the reliance on solo acting and the blatantly obvious nods to classic films, and then even in the first half the over-the-top horror - together it all felt like a sledgehammer

I watched it again recently and finished it. The whole thing was pretty gross, and the ending was way over the top, but it was interesting enough that now I want to see it again

This might be the single grossest movie the most number of my normie friends have seen, it's wild!

I can't recommend it to any of my family or friends tbh - or I could, but they wouldn't like it

My 82 year old mother in-law liked it a lot. Ultra-normie.

i wrote about it on my 2024 movie-watching thread. too busy to do a 2025 movie thread:

I finally watched The Substance! I dug it. Kinda David Cronenberg's Tales from the Crypt. I really did expect The Cryptkeeper to show up halfway through. But, you know, that's just the nature of *be careful what you wish for* horror. It's always going to remind me of fairy tales and Twilight Zone and TFTC and Night Gallery and Creepshow and EC Comics. Also, that last half hour totally made the movie. It seemed a little long but it was all worth it in the end. Lots of fun. I like both of the Coralie Fargeat movies I've seen. I talked about the other one on here. I hope she gets a big budget action horror bloodbath to direct. She is good at blood and action and glitchy body noises. I've been watching Demi since General Hospital and I'll always be fond of her. She probably has some scary plastic surgery stories she could tell! I always wonder if people who have their face and body worked on for years have scary face and body dreams. There should be a book of scary face and body dreams. Also: visually, Fargeat has a cool eye. Which is why I want a ton more movies by her.

This movie was great. I applaud Fargeat's boldness. Demi Moore is great in it, I applaud her boldness, too.

It ramps up in such a way that I thought was extremely well done, i.e. very very slowly and gradually but persistently.

dog latin otm

I realize that pointing out citations and references is the most phallogocentric* way to talk about filmmaking and -viewing, BUT: The Vertigo score interpolation had me questioning my own sanity. "Jeeze, that really sounds like... Nooo, it couldn't possibly be." Now I really want to know what Fargeat thinks of Hitchcock.

*: The first time I wrote Fargeat's name, autocorrect thought I meant "Father."

This might be the single grossest movie the most number of my normie friends have seen, it's wild!

― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 24 January 2025 01:48 (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, fr. I could only really compare it to some of the more "Extreme Asian Cinema" I used to watch with my horror buff friends in the 2000s in terms of shock and awe and grossness

ctrl-F "Cinderella" no results. The bird's eye view of her twirling in that blue ball gown was magnificent.

Lotta bird's eye view in this movie now that I think about it. Kind of an interesting storytelling device. Unforgettable shower scenes.

And there is something about screens, and windows, and pinup posters, and flatness. (For an instant, I really thought the cutout face mask was going to work, and the message of the movie was "Showbiz people are just that shallow.")

Also the moment when Elisabeth first wakes up under Sue's sleeping body. After pulling herself free, we see her touching it, admiring it. I know this isn't "what the movie is about" but there were moments that felt very social media, very Instagram, very personal brand. Who hasn't spent time impressed with the perfection of their own externalized ideal self, whether in swimsuit pics or a really funny pinned tweet? Then again, maybe this is one of those things some feminist theorists talk about, where society as a whole begins to reproduce forms of abjection and alienation that were originally limited to women.

did anyone on here have thoughts about why the only substance user she met was a man? the nurse. i mean obviously in hollywood fear of aging is for everyone but it was a choice to have it be that guy. and have it be someone not in the business.

part of me wondered if the other user is the person who invented the substance. his "young" version seemed a keen proselytiser of it and said she'd make "a good candidate" or whatever, whereas the older version seemed to have quite a different attitude. so my guess is that he had gone so far down the rabbithole he was no longer in control of his two lives in any way and was watching his younger self run rampant

Maybe more of an "Introduce a friend for mega di$counts on your next prescription!!" deal?

Well there's only one other box in the room, so maybe my theory is wrong because why would the owner have a box?

A Different Man would make a good double bill with The Substance

did anyone on here have thoughts about why the only substance user she met was a man? the nurse. i mean obviously in hollywood fear of aging is for everyone but it was a choice to have it be that guy. and have it be someone not in the business.

yes - something very heavy and sad in that moment

New MUBI video up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KASLYEChinM

“Every age has its own perfect,” Fargeat says. “Now, there’s Ozempic; before, we had amphetamines. Every culture has its own standard of what is valued. But it’s always the same violence. And it’s a trap. It’s not going to solve the way you can have a fulfilling relationship with the world. To me, it’s not something you can fight on the personal level. The whole world has to change to make you at ease. I truly believe that it’s a fight you can’t win on your own.”

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2025/feb/03/i-was-trying-to-explode-the-idea-of-beauty-coralie-fargeat-on-the-substance-women-and-hollywood

Okay, okay - daughters were curious to see this after reading some cringeworthy online reactions. I was able to dial in to its B movie wavelength successfully and had a pretty good time. Due in part to this thread.

I'd struggle to call this a B movie but maybe? To me it's a AAA movie, a futureshock

It's a total B movie, albeit with A execution. Just like her other movie.

Yeah this is top of the line pulp with a message that can’t be missed and isn’t intended to be.

Saw on Reddit that they made a funny by labeling the Blu/4K combo pack discs with Demi on the former disc and Qualley on the latter.

Love it:

https://gizmodo.com/coralie-fargeat-star-wars-fan-film-the-substance-2000565012

Also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMicrbtjFKU

Good stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOw_nA5AVdA