US Politics, September 2024 -- “I’m Not Going to Apologize For Posting a Joke”

there's never, in America, going to be a critical mass of people who believe the system requires progressive change. (there may be a critical mass of people who believe the exact opposite -- that what the system truly needs is reactionary change!)

OTM. I find it far more likely that in the event of climate catastrophe America keeps being a bunker state mostly interested in keeping out refugees and extracting resources from the rest of the world than that it moves toward sustainable degrowth.

aside from some big obvious ones like don’t drive a car or don’t fly, you can’t really consume your way out of climate emissions, the supply chains and spillover effects are just too complex. lots of thing ppl think of as climate friendly consumption patterns (eg eating local produce) are actually carbon neutral or even positive once you take into a count the global end-to-end emissions along the supply chain

you guys are all underrating the inflation reduction act though. even though it has pretty little on the demand side, it’s one of the most ambitious and aggressive climate policies taken by any country. it’s impact on emissions is of course tbd (and of course it would likely be gutted if trump wins) but it’s potentially really big

xps - It's not so much believing in the system as realizing that the system is central to how power gets distributed. If you want grits, you go to the grocery.

^ That's pretty much where I land.

Sure, yes, I buy a tank of gas every 7-20 days... because mass transit doesn't exist where I live.

I'm not trying to criticize the reality that we need to change our patterns of consumption if we want to stop environmental destruction. But damn, it is really difficult to get people to make even small changes.

There's a lot of chicken-egg issues with transit. In areas with enough pop density to make it work, it's tough to get single-passenger commuters to get out of their cars and ride a bus, because the routes don't run frequently enough. On the flip side, transit departments say that they cannot increase frequency because ridership isn't high enough to warrant it.

As a member of a 1-car household who lives 4 blocks from a semi-frequent bus route that takes me to and from the city center up until midnight, I try to ride buses/trains/bikes for as many trips as I can, and evangelize the fuck out of the advantages ("I literally got dropped off right at the door with no need to find parking!"; "I save $3000 per year in auto payments and expenses!"). But I've found that people in my friend/acquaintance group - especially those with young children - insist on driving everywhere, even though several live near frequent transit routes, including one that connects several of our residences. Despite my pro-transit agitprop, there's a strong perception that transit is not safe, and I have a really tough time convincing people in my immediate world - whether they fall on the traditional liberal side, or the more DSA-aligned left - to trade the comfort of their cars for what they view as an unpredictable/unsafe method of travel. And this is in a city with somewhat-decent transit!

To tie this back to politics, I understand the reticence of Harris to get too preachy and bossy regarding consumption choices, because the electorate generally chooses the side that is more perceived as live-and-let-live, and right now, that's the Dems. When Trump croaks, the right wing will once again fall into the grip of more churchy leaders, who will be unable to cloak their 'hall monitor' attitudes against pop culture behind a New Yorker with a perception of libertinism (it is tough to seem like the 'rebellious' party when a overly-religious southerner, like Tom Cotton, Nikki Haley, or Ron DeSantis, is the avatar). Then, I think we will have more ideological space to ask Americans to make a few changes.

That is believing in the system though - it doesn't require you to like it, just to believe there is no alternative. Xpost

this article is sighting the same report you posted

omg you connected a dot. Here's a cookie.

― famous instagram dog (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, September 12, 2024 12:49 PM (thirty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

nothin is good enough for this guy

you can’t really consume your way out of climate emissions

― flopson, Thursday, September 12, 2024 1:04 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

agree with this and would expand on it to say were not going to shop our way out of any problems, thats consumer brained, the only thing that can match the horrible destructive power of capital or whatever you want to call it in whatever system youre into is collective people power

Alternatives to the present system are easy to imagine, but none of those alternatives will exist until one is created and supplants this one. If you have organized enough power to substitute another system or fundamentally alter what we have presently, then you probably have enough power to use the means that exist in the present system.

collective people power

soylent green energy

Serious question about “believing in the system” vs. “not believing in the system” — what does “not believing in the system” look like from a policy/politics perspective? You do what exactly? How do you get from “the system” to “not the system”? There’s a general assumption afaict that “vote for change” is ineffective and/or insufficient under the system, so … then what?

one way to approach it is organizing in professional/affinity etc groups, more workers unions student groups etc, and then having solidarity between those groups, its proven effective in the past

I don't know if anyone has ever organized anything as large as what it would take to stop climate change.

yeah probably not

likely won't be popular will for it until way too late anyway

"That the only way to actually do anything about climate catastrophe is to move toward a model of swift and steady degrowth is obvious"

this will happen naturally as the situation progresses via fire and flood and storm. it already is happening. more people will die. more houses will burn/be swept away. there is your degrowth.

No one has ever passed legislation or come up with market solutions for anything of the magnitude of stopping climate change either, surely? It's prob the biggest thing we've ever encountered as a species, at least in terms of global impact.

There are also more ways to connect worldwide organising than ever before - not that I'm optimistic about getting there.

Joining a public sector union earlier this year was easily the most satisfying thing I've done in years. To have even a foothold on power is a thrill.

I think organizing in general is good strategy even though also very hard to do. (Particularly organizing non-wealthy people and interests against very wealthy ones like oil companies.) But that still seems like acting within the system to me, if by the system we mean existing economic and political structures and the limited levers of power they provide.

Not trying to be overly literal about believing vs. not believing in the system, just trying to grasp what effective action outside the system looks like. I can understand it at a small scale, like mutual aid networks, but it seems a lot more challenging at the scale required to think about climate change.

nature always has the final word. species don't get to overrule it.

You gotta recognize there's a problem, right? In America we got too many NIMBYs who'll say "Climate change is a problem, yeah" but won't commit beyond the posturing.

given the collective action challenges i guess it's not surprising that the most progress is being made on the supply side where it easier to make money as a private operator, i.e. huge drop in price of relatively clean electricity, etc.

they're eating each other

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/marjorie-taylor-greene-calls-out-laura-loomers-racist-comments-in-surprising-internet-feud/ar-AA1qqD1f

Joining a public sector union earlier this year was easily the most satisfying thing I've done in years. To have even a foothold on power is a thrill.

― the talented mr pimply (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, September 12, 2024 1:47 PM (forty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

right on good stuff

Not trying to be overly literal about believing vs. not believing in the system, just trying to grasp what effective action outside the system looks like. I can understand it at a small scale, like mutual aid networks, but it seems a lot more challenging at the scale required to think about climate change.

Enough labor action fucking with rich people and power holders, like the pushback from taxi drivers and flight attendants, that pushed back against the Muslim travel ban or one of the government shutdowns

i will say there is another way to fight climate change, a relatively small number of saboteurs could easily render americas petroleum industry unprofitable, of course that doesnt really lead anywhere, its a negation, and thats where the above ground collective action comes in, the classic political and militant wings of a movement

they're eating each other

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/marjorie-taylor-greene-calls-out-laura-loomers-racist-comments-in-surprising-internet-feud/ar-AA1qqD1f

How the hell do you get to “too racist for Marjorie Taylor Greene”, that’s like getting Lovecraft to go “hey now, that’s really antisemitic”

i do sometimes think about re-reading the monkeywrench gang except not for fun this time

But even labor efforts have limits, as the UAW auto workers have to rely on sympathetic Executive Administrations to keep tariffs in place to keep Chinese-manufactured EVs from flooding the American market

labor unions are weak rn, you need more workers unionized

Yes, and where you have those workers matters, both in term of region and economic sector

yup

I get sidetracked by dentistry and day job work for a few hours and the thread becomes a damn colloquy and shit

(Not complaining, mind you!)

Joining a public sector union earlier this year was easily the most satisfying thing I've done in years. To have even a foothold on power is a thrill.

― the talented mr pimply (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, September 12, 2024 12:47 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

otmfm! Did you join AFT? I've been slowly organizing my colleagues with them. Doubled our size last year from 3 to 6! Baby steps.

Also when private jets are banned or taxed to oblivion I will believe that Democrats are serious about climate change.

siick xp

tipsy, one anarchist solution to this is to essentially create off-grid communities of like-minded people, basically play out the paranoid right-wing/freemen playbook but do it based on hard left principles. there’s a reason my dream is to buy up some acreage near a fresh water source in the Northwoods in the next ten years— I want to build an off-grid home and invite friends and fellow travelers to do the same.

(fwiw, i lived off-grid for about a year during the years i was absent from this board, and i can honestly say it was difficult but also rewarding and rather beautiful in many ways)

its easier than ever to go off grid these days some people out in the country do it just cause it happens to be the best choice for their circumstance logistically, i know someone whos building a house who chose it for that reason, however you can be off the grid but you cant really be off the grid yr solar panels have to come from somewhere you drive on the roads etc

otmfm! Did you join AFT? I've been slowly organizing my colleagues with them. Doubled our size last year from 3 to 6! Baby steps.

― underminer of twenty years of excellent contribution to this borad (dan m),

My uni's chapter of United Faculty of Florida. When DeSantis threatened to decertify if we didn't hit 50% paid members; we exceeded this goal. Yesterday we secured a rather impressive raise/bonus package from the administration effective in a few weeks: the best of my time here. Again, it feels good.

tipsy, one anarchist solution to this is to essentially create off-grid communities of like-minded people, basically play out the paranoid right-wing/freemen playbook but do it based on hard left principles. there’s a reason my dream is to buy up some acreage near a fresh water source in the Northwoods in the next ten years— I want to build an off-grid home and invite friends and fellow travelers to do the same.

Can definitely see that on an individual/small-group basis. And every effort counts. But obviously that model is not going to achieve anything close to what needs to be done on climate. (Don't get me wrong, it's probably more useful than tossing things in the single-stream recycling bin and hoping it somehow reduces the production of new plastic.)

Yesterday we secured a rather impressive raise/bonus package from the administration effective in a few weeks: the best of my time here. Again, it feels good.

"Don't you see, man? Asking for money just means you're playing the Man's game, man! Drop out!" *giant bong rip*

it's funny how american exceptionalism plays into inaction on climate change. i know a lot of ppl who just think we'll innovate our way out of this and therefore we need not worry about it. someone from nasa is gonna spray some shit in the air and we'll be good

I wonder if we will get another debate, and if we do, whether the moderators (or Harris) will call him on more bullshit. I honestly can't believe this has never happened, though he only talks to press who are going to be favorable to him; but someone needs to explicitly ask if he understands the difference between 'mental asylum' and 'political asylum'

I wonder if we will get another debate, and if we do, whether the moderators (or Harris) will call him on more bullshit.

He splatted out a "Truth" saying no, because according to him, "Polls clearly show" that he won. So "THERE WILL BE NO THIRD DEBATE!"

kinda think he has to do another one but who knows with that guy

a lively discussion all! IMHO, all this really just underlines the original point, which is that Harris and the corporate Dem core is utterly failing to actually present a serious public conversation about real, substantive change. that is: how much of the substance you can get even in this conversation would you get from watching our national leaders on TV? obv i'm not expecting them to get out in front and advocate for degrowth (yet). that's the role of committed activists, until the consensus is better built. and the naysayers are not wrong that America's political culture, as currently constituted, would find little on-the-ground support for "we're going to have to live with less."

but... we're going to have to live with less! so either we work on getting there, accept total catastrophe, or convince ourselves that the problem is already solved with the existing policy achievements and/or recycling and electric cars.

and like --- even pulling back momentarily from climate --- say we had a candidate who came from the burgeoning progressive wing (let's say Warren just for fun). well whatever they say on climate, they they would at least be championing a bunch of the bread-and-butter issues like M4A, transit investment, affordable housing, reigning in corporate greed (including energy consumption, including AI bullshit, etc). maybe they even get close to the order-of-magnitude increases in these things that we actually desperately need. maybe the enthusiasm for these things triggers a wave election and they can actually get that stuff accomplished.

and maybe that helps turn us away from (a) mass precarity and (b) a hopelessly nihilistic mass ideology of individualism. and IMHO, those shifts would make it a lot easier for the next progressive phase to build consensus around belt-tightening or degrowth. true decarbonization of the economy. automatic luxury communism. whatever new model it is we need to replace extractive carbon-based capitalism, we gotta start making that transition a livable one. that's the real "bridge fuel."

unperson, your strawmen are getting deeply boring.

unperson's hilarious social satire coming to you straight from an open mic stand up night circa 1991

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