Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

Fuck off, tabes. Either you're being lazy or you're being dumb, and neither has a place on this thread.

rob otm

fuck you Andrew

Even that Lancet thing was actually just an opinion letter written to the Lancet, not a Lancet-published peer-reviewed paper.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 11 September 2024 bookmarkflaglink

Would it matter to you that it was? Unless you or I have the skills to go through the evidence you are reading it in some form of good will.

But I think its worth sharing that people are doing some work on this and that we are staring at the extermination of a people.

yeah I should clarify that I believe researchers making these estimates is important work (the Lancet's work on the US's Iraq invasion death toll was critical to piercing the fog of jingoistic nonsense clouding those years). I just don't want to get into arguments about specific figures on ilx

I do think calling the Lancet letter "actually just an opinion letter" is going too far, given the institutional affiliations of the writers and the, afaict, eminently reasonable claims made in the letter.

but above all this was otm:

Israel has overwhelmed Palestinians' ability to count the bodies, which is just...

― symsymsym, Wednesday, September 11, 2024 6:39 PM (yesterday)

The Ministry of Health in Gaza has just published a 649-page document with the the name, age, gender, ID number of every Palestinian killed in Gaza from October 7 to August 31 that it has info for (over 34k out of 40k). The 1st 14 pages the age is listed as 0 (under 1 year old) pic.twitter.com/NZZNLLf7ml

— Sharif Kouddous شريف عبد القدوس (@sharifkouddous) September 15, 2024

nyt report:

Wireless Devices Explode Across Lebanon After Israel Warns Hezbollah

A Lebanese official said pagers belonging to Hezbollah militants had exploded, and the health minister said hundreds of people were injured. The Israeli military declined to comment.

Large numbers of “wireless devices” simultaneously exploded across Lebanon in an apparently coordinated attack that caused hundreds of injuries, Lebanese health officials said on Tuesday, a day after Israeli leaders warned that they were considering stepping up their military campaign against Hezbollah.

A Lebanese intelligence official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive matter, said that the blasts occurred after pagers belonging to Hezbollah members exploded across the country. Lebanon’s health minister, Firass Abiad, said that hundreds of people had been injured in the blasts but that the authorities were still working to gather an exact figure.

The Israeli military declined to comment.

Lebanon’s Health Ministry said in a statement that many people had arrived at Lebanese hospitals after being wounded when their wireless devices exploded. The ministry warned citizens to stay away from similar devices until it was clear what had caused the blasts.

The Lebanese Red Cross said in a statement that 80 ambulances were responding to “multiple bombings” in southern and eastern Lebanon, as well as in Beirut, the capital, and Lebanon’s Internal Security Forces Directorate asked people to clear the roads so people could be rushed to hospitals.

The blasts appeared to be the latest salvo in an 11-month conflict between Israel and Hezbollah that began last October, after Hezbollah began firing into Israeli territory in solidarity with its ally, Hamas. The conflict has largely remained contained to exchanges of missiles and rockets, but for months, leaders on either side have warned that it could expand into a war involving ground forces.

pretty bold to frame this as part of a military campaign

Reuters report suggests the pagers were part of a new shipment brought in in recent months, hell of a sabotage operation if so: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/dozens-hezbollah-members-wounded-lebanon-when-pagers-exploded-sources-witnesses-2024-09-17/

more than 2700 wounded: https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-hezbollah-israel-exploding-pagers-8893a09816410959b6fe94aec124461b

What a wild cyber attack damn

Tweet puts this in historical context.

Remotely exploding pagers carried by hundreds of people including paramedics, civil defense workers and civilians in 2024, and planting hidden explosives inside children toys back in 1982, are different methods of terrorism by the same genocidal Zionist colonial entity.

— Ghassan 𓂆 ☭ غسان (@GhassanKDE) September 17, 2024

yeah, that is crazy, and likely implies that it is more than a simple cyber-attack, i.e. something was inserted into those pagers somewhere along the supply chain (this isn't sure, but for now everything I've read seems to imply that it is unlikely to be able to pull something like this off by software alone)

If this was warfare, it was psychological warfare. It might be clever, but it will have no measurable military benefit and I can't see that it will deter Hezbollah in any way. It will certainly get cheers from the militantly anti-Arab segment of the Israeli population and Bibi might get a bit of a PR boost from it.

i was reading about this, which certainly if not stopped ahead of time might have led to some more "complexity" in Israel's relations with its US and UK allies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

Thread from the analyst I usually follow:

THREAD: Israel's unprecedented and highly sophisticated security operation today in which almost 3000 people have been injured so far, is by all means a massive blow to Hizbullah. This is all more so the case given that Hizbullah has always credited its performance in the July…

— Amal Saad (@amalsaad_lb) September 17, 2024

who the hell uses pagers anymore? hezbollah, I guess

the tweet explains why!

But a few civilians killed too. Be a while before the dust settles on this..

The one reported death from the detonated pagers so far is 10-year-old girl Fatima Jaafar Abdullah.

However much Israel's cheerleaders claim otherwise, conflicts have rules.

If you violate those rules, you have committed war crimes, and you should face justice. https://t.co/treJys9Vwe pic.twitter.com/Fhrg13towc

— Owen Jones (@owenjonesjourno) September 17, 2024

If this was warfare, it was psychological warfare.

try telling that to the guys w/ missing hands

the psychological warfare aspect is obv pertinent ... israel is pulling off crazy assassination stunts when there are no repercussions for drone bombing so i don't want to minimize that part

the thread xyzzzz posted is interesting but the other side of that coin is that even if we're to believe that israel's enemies being forced into using primitive communication was good for planning covert attacks, everyone seems to agree that one of the major impediments in ceasefire negotiations is that sinwar in particular communicates thru human carrier pigeon. so you could view this from the angle of that tweeter -- why did israel reveal that it could mass blow up its enemies' communication lines? -- if we follow the argument that hezbollah et al will burrow further away from israeli's ability to spy on them. but in the instance of this war where drawn out cease fire "negotiations" give israel a space to bomb away while playacting as peacemaker, further straining the communication between itself and its enemies plays in its favor

Al Jazeera is saying that the pagers in the Israeli attack were indeed packed with explosives and were imported into Lebanese territory *five months ago*, and Axios says that the decision was made by the Israeli state to detonate the pagers a week ago.

— Séamus Malekafzali (@Seamus_Malek) September 17, 2024

You guys know Hezbollah has been shelling civilians in Israel for the past year, right?

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2024-07-30/a-cratered-field-a-mangled-fence-clues-emerge-from-strike-that-killed-12-children-in-golan-heights

Yes, we talked about that when it happened.

the golan heights? a lovely place

You guys know Hezbollah has been shelling civilians in Israel for the past year, right?

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2024-07-30/a-cratered-field-a-mangled-fence-clues-emerge-from-strike-that-killed-12-children-in-golan-heights

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, September 17, 2024 3:01 PM (three hours ago)

Yes. Did you know that "The thousands of Israeli attacks since October have far outnumbered Hezbollah attacks into Israel"? And "Israeli airstrikes and shelling in Lebanon have killed nearly 500 people, at least 100 of them civilians, according to the U.N. and Lebanon’s health ministry"?

(from: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/08/08/world/middleeast/israel-lebanon-destruction.html)

I'm sure you did know that though. They've been firing at each other for years before 10/7, so what's your point exactly? That this pager attack was justified and/or proportional?

I think man alive's point is obvious. Frustrating to have it rehashed so frequently on this thread

TBC when I first read about it it sounded pretty targeted at Hezbollah members. Now I’m not as sure and trying to wait for more info. But I don’t really feel upset by Israel attacking an Iranian proxy militia that not only attacks Israel but fucks things up for Lebanon.

Just an fyi, Israel blew up a bunch of doctors, medical workers, teachers and children in Lebanon today. They targeted a brand of pager that wasn’t exclusively held by Hezzbollah, and indiscriminately attacked civilians in the process. Israel will do anything to push regional war

— Remi Kanazi (@Remroum) September 17, 2024

"Pretty targeted" huh?

I…don’t think that’s true?

Important notice:
The pagers that exploded in Lebanon were not solely used by resistance fighters; employees of Hezbollah's institutions, which include civilians, also used them. It's important to note that Hezbollah is a political party (part of the Lebanese government) and it…

— Dyab Abou Jahjah (@Aboujahjah) September 17, 2024

You guys know Hezbollah has been shelling civilians in Israel for the past year, right?

are you saying that hezbollah and israel are morally level

As far as I can tell, the pagers were specifically used by Hezbollah for secrecy/security reasons. They were not being used by schoolteachers and nurses, unless they were schoolteachers and nurses who also happened to be Hezbollah fighters. But hey some guy tweeted otherwise. Israel probably just likes harming random Lebanese people for no reason.

Israel probably just likes harming random Lebanese people for no reason.

Incredible to say this with such derision about a state actively engaged in genocide.

presuming for a second your "as far as i can tell" is worth more than "some guy tweeting otherwise", and setting aside the obvious sarcasm in your last line and taking the point made - neither of which is a very comfortable thing to actually do, btw:

do you think israel, as a govt, sets an acceptably high bar on the unfortunate necessity of harming random lebanese people? is that where you expect ppl to meet you here as a discussion point?

^^

Considering that (1) it has been widely reported that Hezbollah uses pagers for security reasons and (2) basically no one else does in 2024, it’s a pretty reasonable assumption xp.

mate.....

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/17/world/middleeast/israel-hezbollah-pagers-explosives.html

They were literally ordered by Hezbollah for security reasons.

I don't know what you're looking for here, but what I'm looking for is any kind of understanding of the horror that it is to plants 5000 remote-detonatable personal bombs that blow up in grocery stores, within houses, injure 2800, kill 9, including an 8 year old girl. Instead you've laughed it off with a "Israel probably just likes harming random Lebanese people for no reason." Would love to hear the reason Israel had to kill the 8 year old with a remote detonated personal bomb. Look at yourself.

You know what, I'm not even looking for an understanding though it would be nice. Silence is enough, thanks.

i phrased that question as directly and as fairly as i could and obviously you dont owe me any response at all but i also feel it was the only possible relevant question to ask anyone who posted what you posted up there.

i genuinely think it merited a direct response and not as callous a shrug as that

Israel probably just likes harming random Lebanese people for no reason.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 18 September 2024 bookmarkflaglink

Hilarious thing to post with a straight face. Got to applaud, in a way.

sealion alive, children unalive

fwiw I think israel enjoys (or at least tolerates as collateral damage) random civilians, AND I would like to see some serious, non-twitter person sourcing on the claim that non-hezbollah were carrying these pagers and direct victims of the attack

*killing* random civilians, that is

Its for the greater goal of 'defending itself', which much of the world nods along to, and does not agree when it comes to countries like Lebanon, which is always described as a Hezbollah stronghold.

It’s my feeling that Israel stopped “defending itself” when they started blowing up Gazan hospitals.

More justifications for terrorism.

In war it's impossible to fully prevent harm to civilians - especially when #Hezbollah operates in Beirut's densest civilian areas. Some impacted by this operation may be civilians due to #Hezbollah's use of civilians as human shields and their use of soldiers when age 18. (3/3)

— Congressman Brad Sherman (@BradSherman) September 18, 2024

Right everyone knows that hezbollah operatives walk around with a baby strapped to their backs at all times to deter remote detonation of their pagers