Poll: Is not voting ever a good political strategy?

trying to think of how many elections in my adult life were framed as "the most important election of your lifetime"

I don't recall Bush-Gore being touted that way, which is probably why I felt comfortable voting Nader then. I think also people thought Gore would defeat Bush (well, more than he actually did at least).

Iraq war definitely turned 2004 into a "blue no matter who" thing, because Kerry was dogshit, but he underperformed expectations so that messaging didn't work.

Obama didn't feel that way simply because after the disastrous Bush term and how poorly he was viewed by even his own voters coupled with Great Recession, the potential to win was high before a candidate was nominated, and McCain's poor campaign and Palin sunk him fairly early, so they actually ran on 'hope' rather than fear.

but by 2012, we were back to "blue no matter who, we can't have Romney gut ACA".

2016, I can't recall if that was the messaging prior to Trump emerging as the obvious candidate, but it sure as fuck got louder when it was obvious he'd get it.

people get very sick of that messaging and the smug nature of it, even though deep down we all know we do have to keep the white supremacist rapist autocrat out of office.

hard to know how well he'd have done in a general, but the coalescence behind Biden in 2020 was premature, especially since it felt like it could have been anotehr 2008, where Trump's unforced errors really had voters hoping to see him in the rear view. but Dems (and Obama) got cold feet and decided to congeal around the 'only one who could win'.

Kamala at least has come out of the gate with things to be excited about even it's mostly vibes at this point, but Democrats really aren't going to get that much more mileage out of scaring people into voting for them, particularly when not using 80% of the toolkit available regarding SCOTUS and court expansion (yeah it might face more roadblocks i.e. Manchin but not even making the effort to even give lip service to this until the end of your second time...ugh)

xpost otm i don't think anybody here needs to be told about downticket races/ballot initiatives

If anything Harris' success (till now) has depended on (a) youth (b) Dem voter exhaustion with WHOA NELLY THE SKY'S FALLING

what's weird was the reasoning for that messaging pre-Trump. obviously in 2004 it made sense, Iraqis and US soldiers were dying en masse, fighting two wars, Patriot Act etc.

in 2012, I get people were afraid of the Affordable Care Act being repealed, which was fair, but they also tried to suggest that other gains that SCOTUS had given would go away, which of course was impossible without someone on the bench dying/retiring.

I think posters in this thread refer to presidential elections and sitting them out, not local races.

This may be true, but it was not my intention that this discussion be limited to presidential elections, and certainly not the just Trump vs Harris. But people tend to apply their own perspective to their contributions regardless.

in 2012, I get people were afraid of the Affordable Care Act being repealed, which was fair, but they also tried to suggest that other gains that SCOTUS had given would go away, which of course was impossible without someone on the bench dying/retiring.

Maybe this is belaboring the obvious but multiple people died/retired in the intervening years and now Roe vs Wade has been thrown out, so I don’t think the messaging was a) wrong, or b) premature

well, all that happened after 2016 then (other than Scalia). but I understand your point.

then = though

I guess what I want to understand (truly- I am keeping an open mind here) from the people itt who are not Republican voters but are committed to not voting for Harris at this point due to what is happening in Gaza:

- How are you making your stance known (other than posting here) and what group are you joining that has the goal and ability to bargain with her campaign for your votes?
- What verbal commitment from Harris would you be satisfied with, given that a verbal commitment is all that can happen until she is actually President?

I'm not sure why the inclination would be to amplify your position in the public sphere without making these two things clear at every opportunity. There is the potential here to impact countless others' intentions regarding voting, without bringing them into the bargaining position I can only presume you intend.

all that happened after 2016 then

But also after the 2014 midterms, which had historically terrible turnout and flipped nine Senate seats to Republicans.

There is also the fact that Democrats have been backed into a corner where we need to hold the Presidency, hold the Senate, and win the House, if we want to have any hope of making change. Republicans have shown that they will not cooperate, and will not give Democrats "wins", if they hold any of the levers of power. Minimally, not holding the Presidency and the Senate means we are doomed with regard to the Supreme Court (more than we already are).

- How are you making your stance known (other than posting here) and what group are you joining that has the goal and ability to bargain with her campaign for your votes?
- What verbal commitment from Harris would you be satisfied with, given that a verbal commitment is all that can happen until she is actually President?

I'm not sure why the inclination would be to amplify your position in the public sphere without making these two things clear at every opportunity. There is the potential here to impact countless others' intentions regarding voting, without bringing them into the bargaining position I can only presume you intend.

lol this is disgusting. yes it's on the non genocide agreers to justify all their choices. especially since other people, who are apparently babies, might hear.

this thread is fucking pathetic and full of a lot of people who think they're smart but are actually dumb as shit, poster aimless chief among them. i will be voting for harris in november and honestly gaza isn't a huge issue for me because i've seen so many us backed genocides in my lifetime, it sucks but i see a genocide of poor and mentally ill people in my own backyard every day and the chance to address that is my primary motivation for voting.

people can choose to not participate politically and be perfectly valid morally upright beings. the assumption of a zero sum game in this kind of thread question is stupid horseshit. the worst thread of the year from one of our worst posters.

I'm not asking anyone to justify anything, voting or not voting is a personal choice. But given the amount of "oh, so you support genocide?" bullshit I see thrown around here, I just assumed the posters with the higher moral ground had some sort of plan and I wanted to know what it was.

It definitely feels like the posters who plan to vote are being forced to justify themselves, and I find that disgusting.

Particularly in light of what some of our ancestors went through to make voting a routine task for some of us.

I’m with DJP — that’s what my parents taught me about voting, that it’s something people fought hard and even died for and i ought not squander if I want to sleep at night. The privilege of withholding my vote never seemed more important than that, to me at least.

^^^
I’m finding it difficult to put into words how awful it is to see liberal guys sidelining reproductive rights and failing to consider the POV of people from groups who haven’t always enjoyed the right to vote, just to have this VeRy iNteLLeCtUaL DiScUsSiOn.

absolutely no one is being told to not vote, that voting is bad or that their reasons for voting are invalid/bad/etc.

zero posters in the history of ILX have been "forced to justify themselves" for voting for a Democrat

Very slightly upthread, comment about "non genocide agreers"- the implication is clear. And that's just the most recent example.

Yeah I think the moral pressures implied or otherwise are expressed in both directions.

I think that's fine fwiw, would be nice if people could accept that there are moral arguments either way. I'm not persuaded by the vote-withholding position for lots of reasons, but I don't think it's crazy, I understand the objections. I don't think any of think we're presented with ideal options, in this or any other election.

any of us think ...

I think that's fair to say.

Very slightly upthread, comment about "non genocide agreers"- the implication is clear. And that's just the most recent example.

The comment about non-genocide agreers... from a declared Harris voter in response to you actually making demands of non-voters or people who want to take Harris to task over Israel.

Per your equivocation upthread about where Harris stands, you don't want to be on Team Genocide. Cool, good desire to have. Pretty much bullshit, because she's going to enable genocide in office. Other concerns outweigh the obvious reality of what President Harris would mean on Israel (and American imperialism in general), completely understandable.

No one is requiring you to justify how you weigh those concerns but at the same time no one is responsible for helping to make you feel better about that vote by pretending Harris isn't going to be a continuation of foreign policy as it exists.

zero posters in the history of ILX have been "forced to justify themselves" for voting for a Democrat

lol this is rich

xp I don't care who made the comment, it's part of a pattern of how we are talking about these issues and it is making people feel compelled to justify their voting intentions, in the face of accusations of being complicit in genocide. It's been like Godwin's law here.

there is a single declared November American non-voter at ILX and he's not even taking part ITT, we haven't had a Republican voter since Roger Adultery disappeared (if he's ever even voted) and the only libertarian we've had is very much a liberal now

99% of American ILXors have voted Democratic for the two decades of its existence, Democratic voters are not a persecuted group around these parts

Whole lotta hit dogs hollerin’…

anyway I didn't make any demands, I just asked how people are planning to "take Harris to task". Because posting here won't do it.

this thread is fucking pathetic and full of a lot of people who think they're smart but are actually dumb as shit, poster aimless chief among them.

Every few months someone on ILX is a victim of your splenetic rants and it gets less charming every time, and you should shut the fuck up and apologize to Aimless who didn't personally insult you or anyone on this thread. Fucking hell, man.

If you've got anger problems, map, step off fucking ILX. I've had enough spit-flecked rage from straight guys to deal with it here.

I can share that, of the many reasons I have for voting for Harris, #1 on my list is that I have a daughter, and I want her to grow up in a country where she is valued, empowered, and in control of her own destiny (inasmuch as any of us are). I want her to grow up in a country that would elect Harris as President. I don't want her to grow up in a country that would elect Trump again. And I don't want her to grow up in the hellscape that our country would become under a second Trump administration. Things are bad enough already.

Thanks for the support, alfred, but what I post and what map posts are in full view and those who read this thread will form their own opinions of each. I've been on the internet for 30 years and on ilx since greenspun days. I know how all this works and I much prefer map's open hostility to those who covertly twist my words and try to smear me covertly.

I can share that, of the many reasons I have for voting for Harris, #1 on my list is that I have a daughter, and I want her to grow up in a country where she is valued, empowered, and in control of her own destiny (inasmuch as any of us are). I want her to grow up in a country that would elect Harris as President. I don't want her to grow up in a country that would elect Trump again. And I don't want her to grow up in the hellscape that our country would become under a second Trump administration. Things are bad enough already.

Who is being patronized by that post, and in what way?

I ... don't think that's patronizing? Paternal, sure, but I think it's OK to worry about your kids!

This patronizing shit is just as offensive as calling Aimless “stupid” or whatever
― brimstead, Monday, August 26, 2024

dude

if you read that and you see "patronizing" it really feels like you're bringing outside baggage to the post. it's just a person expressing their feeling about an issue!

outside baggage???? Personally I’ll be voting but that dude’s posts seemed like shit designed to make someone feel bad. “I’m voting because I’m not a dickhole and I’m great dad” great, congrats, welcome to the human race.

Lord forbid someone justify their actions by deffering to personal love for others. Patronising as hell. Let's run them off the board so we can get back to what this board is really all about: hating

I can understand the resentment against fathers and mothers who portray themselves as representatives of the only raft to the future. It can feel like an exclusion to the rest of us. But I think everyone is doing what they can, and they are adrift like all of us

I don't have a kid but I love my goddaughter, who is no relation. Today is her 16th birthday, and I'm totally basking in the possibilities for her future

outside baggage???? Personally I’ll be voting but that dude’s posts seemed like shit designed to make someone feel bad. “I’m voting because I’m not a dickhole and I’m great dad” great, congrats, welcome to the human race.

― brimstead,

You're writing as if designed to extricate yourself from it.

Personally I’ll be voting but that dude’s posts seemed like shit designed to make someone feel bad. “I’m voting because I’m not a dickhole and I’m great dad” great, congrats, welcome to the human race.

what tf did I do to you?

nm, all good

"I want her to grow up in a country that would elect Harris as President. "

We've just elected a centre-left government with the first women chancellor. Rachel Reeves has been going on about how proud she is to be the first woman chancellor. Her policies will be almost as regressive and right-wing as a Tory chancellor but I guess some are celebrating this historical fact.

Just recalled this.

Janeway mentioned pic.twitter.com/jTD7q6VzM2

— Don Hughes (@getfiscal) August 23, 2024

I can share that, of the many reasons I have for voting for Harris, #1 on my list is that I have a daughter, and I want her to grow up in a country where she is valued, empowered, and in control of her own destiny (inasmuch as any of us are). I want her to grow up in a country that would elect Harris as President. I don't want her to grow up in a country that would elect Trump again. And I don't want her to grow up in the hellscape that our country would become under a second Trump administration. Things are bad enough already.

― epistantophus

i don't think this is "patronizing" personally, but i do think that what i'm seeing here is... everyone here has their own perspective, their own reasons for voting or not voting, and those reflect some major, significant differences in values and lived experiences.

what you're talking about here really gets to the heart of something i had to go through in 2016. i really didn't want to grow up in a country that would elect trump, particularly since so much of the vote for trump was, to my mind, a reflection of blatant misogyny, that people would do anything rather than vote for a woman. and maybe that's part of why it's so important to me to vote for harris. i believe a lot of the negative stuff that's happened is a reflection of patriarchy, of patriarchal values.

over and over again i see people who have perpetrated sexual abuse being not only excused but celebrated for the abuses they've perpetrated. i've seen not just the victims but people who spoke out against the abusers, people who spoke out in favor of the victims, ridiculed and ignored because, i don't know, pussy hats are cringe or whatever. somehow that's what gets talked about, and not the horror so many people, particularly women, had to come to terms with seeing this fucking sexual abuser being placed into a position of ultimate power in the us, not seeing our worst fears played out over and over and over again. under trump, under biden, you know, it just keeps happening. just a nightmare. a complete nightmare, for so many of us.

it's not _new_, god, i still remember the confirmation hearings for thomas, the way anita hill got treated. like with most allegations of abuse, _she_ was the one who was put on trial. and we've just seen that happen over and over again in the most extreme, horrific way. i don't really believe that somebody is going to do a better job at governing just because they're a woman, just because they're Black, just because they're Asian-American. honestly it's kind of an undue expectation anybody who's part of a marginalized group faces, the expectation of not just doing as well as cishet white men, but doing _better_ while facing far greater pressures than white men ever have to face.

-

which, now that i write it out... i think i agree with and relate to a lot of what you're saying, epistanophus, even if i wouldn't say it in the same way. i'd love to live in a country where i feel valued, empowered, and in control of my own destiny. i'd love to live in a country where i feel empowered, where i feel like i matter. i don't have kids. i never really had the opportunity to have kids, in large part because of the kind of country i grew up in, one where i wasn't valued, empowered, and in control of my own destiny. over the past decade i've seen more and more of that, more and more of this entitled white male rage.

in 2016, america elected somebody who was, from my perspective, an open, proud abuser as president. he acted like one. he still acts like one. in 2021, he tried to overthrow the government in a coup. in 2024, he is the standard bearer and face of one of the two major political parties, a party that holds unquestioned, unchecked, undemocratic power in a number of states, a party that has been and continues to hurt all kinds of people in all kinds of ways. personally? personally i think people with uteruses _have_ been hurt more by people like trump than i have.

there's this pink floyd album called _the final cut_ and it's a Problematic album but one of the things roger waters talks about on it, this dream he has, is the dream of a world where everyone has recourse to the law. those were the ideals i grew up with, those were the ideals i had until 2016, where for me, those ideals were shattered. i don't believe i truly have recourse to the law. i don't believe i _ever_ truly did.

that's made me in some ways deeply cynical, and that's a protective shell, really. that's me being hurt and expecting to be hurt. because just like in 2016, i'm in a country that might elect donald trump president, and i have to live with the reality of that. knowing that over 60 million americans, one fifth of all americans, decided that voting for someone like that was important, was congruent with their personal values.

in that previous paragraph you can see part of how i cope with that, which is to, in some ways implicitly devalue elections, devalue the electoral process. voting is a right that not everybody has had, that people have had to fight long and hard for, a right that... a lot of people still don't have, in america. there's a lot of voter suppression. there's a lot of inequality in voting. i've seen that firsthand, and i think it's good to be grateful for the rights we've earned. kurt vonnegut quoted eugene v. debs a lot, something to the effect of "while there is a soul in prison, i am not free". and we can have Discourse about the truth of that statement, about the prison-industrial complex, and if people want to argue that fine. for me, what debs indicates an underlying truth i believe - that injustice in a system, an organiztion, a polity, devalues it. and america right now is very, very unjust. more than a lot of people want to acknowledge. and i'm... personally skeptical of the idea that we can address this injustice without acknowledging the full extent of it.

-

and i understand, because this is a large country with a lot of different perspectives, that harris isn't necessarily in a position to do that. that a lot of people she's trying to reach believe in the dream. believe that an america that elects harris president is a free, equal country, is a country that's in control of its own destiny. isn't a country that's controlled and dominated by repressive, patriarchal forces. when i look at the democrats, i don't see a party that's truly dedicated to fighting those repressive, patriarchal forces. maybe that's an unfair judgement on my part. maybe i'm placing undue expectation.

they just keep saying well we need more power, more power, and it's frustrating because they're set up to fail. they are. they're set up to fail and it's me as a voter, a queer voter in a state where, due to the electoral college, i'd argue, i believe, that m vote literally does not matter, who's held responsible for the success or failure of the democrats doing what they say they're going to do. they want my vote, and they want my money, because even if i vote for them there's a next election, and a next, and a next, and it seems like most of what they can say is "things could get even worse", as if they aren't already, as if they haven't been already. and it seems like no matter what i do it's somehow not enough.

if i vote for harris, i'm supporting genocide, and that's not... i mean i'm not criticizing people who believe that. when i heard people talk about voting for trump, over and over again they justified what they did on the grounds that it was "the lesser evil". that was a genuine belief that they held. supporting this abuser, this person who's done more to promote patriarchy than nearly anyone else i can think of, this person who has hurt so many people, done damage to so many people, is somehow the "lesser evil" than some patronizing neoliberal woman... i don't know how it would feel to be muslim in this country, to be palestinian - because a lot of people in america are, in fact, palestinians - and see that sixty million people have voted for a candidate who's vowed to continue supporting the genocide of the palestinian people. i really can't imagine how that would make me feel. pretty bad, probably. pretty bad.

but if i decide not to vote, or to vote for anybody at all besides harris, well, then i'm held morally culpable for anything bad trump might do. me, somehow, and not the people who voted for trump. to trump voters, the democrats conciliate, the democrats wheedle, the democrats offer fruitless "compromises" to people who have clearly indicated their disinterest and contempt towards any such thing. they treat people who voted for trump better than they treat people who didn't vote for trump _or_ the democrats' candidate. they seek to curry favor with the white racists and promoters of patriarchy (men and women, mostly white) who voted for trump, and to those of us who have been hurt by racists, hurt by patriarchy, who ask for more, who desperately want any sort of relief, any sort of hope, to those of us who see people we care about suffering and dying, to us they say... things could be worse, as if we don't know, as if we don't feel that terror every day.

i do think the democrats are sincere, i do think the democrats want to make things better. i also think the democrats want to win elections. sometimes those two goals are not fully aligned, and when they're not, i worry that they value the latter over the former. particularly when i see their party candidate supporting genocide.

and, you know what, fuck it, i'm voting for her anyway. i've had extensive experience having to choose in difficult situaions, situations where there's no right answer. in situations like that... i have no guilt, blame, or shame for the decisions i make, merely acceptance of the consequences. i feel the same way towards anybody else. i don't even hate trump voters. they're just people who have chosen to act in a way that hurts me. i want to protect myself from being hurt.

which is why i don't engage, by and large, in politics threads. i have seen a lot of people here who, the way i read it, are clearly hurt and are speaking out of that hurt. i don't want to... i don't want to perpetuate that. i ust want to be fair and kind and truthful.

and to be able to sleep at night. i want that, too. i'm gonna try to get back to sleep now.

extremely well said, all of it- thank you for sharing your perspective. I think what I said came off naive and saccharine, but I wasn’t sure how else to say what I was trying to say. Probably I would have been better off not engaging in the political threads at all. I’m definitely not pleased that my contributions set multiple people off, time for some introspection.

Nah, your post was as sincere and well-put as any on this thread. You're welcome here.

<3