Poll: Is not voting ever a good political strategy?

Political strategies can all fuck off

― This is Dance Anthems, have some respect (Camaraderie at Arms Length),

wish we'd been able to tell MLK!

― the talented mr pimply (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

i mean i think you make a good implicit point here, which is that "political strategies" aren't, like, individual acts. they're highly organized, they're work, and they don't take place exclusively, or even necessarily predominantly, at the ballot box. voting or not voting as an individual is _not a viable political strategy_. like, not to get too wonkish here, but can someone vote or not vote tactically? sure. strategically? wow that's overestimating the case.

i don't personally believe in voting for tactical reasons. i don't see evidence that how i vote can be tactically effective in any case. my vote is personal, and is based on my values, my principles, my understanding of the facts, and in large part, by my emotions. i don't mind this. i think it's fine for me to vote or not vote out of spite. if someone disagrees with that decision, you know, that's cool, but it doesn't mean that i'm personally in a position where i'm going to actually listen to them. that's the main reason i stay out of the politics threads. i have a lot of opinions, but there's this expectation that i'm supposed to discourse or engage with people when, like, i don't necessarily care how they feel about what i'm saying. i don't feel like defending myself or being cross-examined. and i feel like maybe a lot of other people are the same way. i do think there's some evidence that suggests this is the case, that if somebody's going to change their mind they have to be open to it, and if they're not open to it, arguing with them is just going to entrench people's feelings and it gets to the point where people just start, like, cross-examining each other.

if we're gonna talk about things on the personal level, yes. people here have had major effects on my decisions. including whether or not i voted, yes. i don't count that as one of the more significant ways being on ilx has helped guide me, one of the more significant ways people here have helped me grow. to me, voting, particularly in the us on a presidential level, is _not_ one of the more significant political acts one can undertake. i think it's a fairly minor act. politics, to me, that's about my values and believes and how i live them. i don't think politics happens once every four years any more than the preachers at the churches i went to believed that religion only existed on christmas and easter.

and maybe that's why i find all these arguments about voting or not voting silly. it's like arguing whether or not someone should go to church on christmas. do i think it's a _bad thing_ for people to do? not really.

xp god it must be nice to live in a state with open primaries

I can fully understand US women voting for an ugly bullshit centre-right political party of genocide because their reproductive rights are on the ballot and US trans people for their right to exist. And stick with the party with a nose peg on, because the alternative is life threatening in a very real way. But there will never be any meaningful change until there is a mass popular movement to break capitalism and it's stranglehold on corrupt client states is my take on this. This will just repeating over and over again ad infinitum "most important election ever" etc...

pretty much my take as well

I think most of us realize that voting, considered in isolation, is one of the least effective political acts available to us, but that does not render it entirely meaningless in our patchwork system of governance, where at each level, whether it is cities, counties, school districts, state legislatures, or Congress. At every level what gets done eventually come down to who has the higher number of votes. Whoever has the votes gets to control tax revenues, what is or isn't the law, or who sits on our courts. It's a pyramid of power and we sit at the very bottom, but our puny votes are still the foundation it is built on.

When you get up into the more effective political acts you move from a simple act that takes minimal effort to expending much larger amounts of time and energy. Most of us can only rise a short distance above the minimum, but some of us, like ilxors jjjusten, alfred lord sotosyn, or hoosteen, manage to inject that higher level of commitment. If you want to break capitalism instead of voting, hey, you have our blessing. Go hog wild! We're behind you cheering.

loudly threatening to withhold your vote for specific reason(s), and making sure the votee is aware of that - classic
not bothering to vote at all - dud

IHIBIDTAE

btw, it's worth considering that one of the most basic strategies employed by the conservative opposition is to do everything possible to prevent, deflect, or suppress voting, from intimidation, to voter ID laws, to gerrymandering, or simply convincing as many people as possible that voting is an empty futile gesture that will never make a dime's worth of difference to their lives. Maybe they know something about voting we aren't acknowledging.

xxp
you see, if I was a narcissist I wouldn't be so happy open myself up to ridicule here! It just bothers me that if people don't support the status quo then it is a form of narcissism according to parts of this thread. I'm benefits scum, so my opposition to garbage centrist policies and politicians is at least a significant % of self-interest group concern as well. Anyway I'll go away in peace, because it is mainly a US pol thread.

As I learned yesterday meeting with otherwise intelligent, engaged late middle-age voters, many if not most Democrats have no interest in destroying capitalism -- the Central and South American exiles are particularly passionate about Reclaiming The Flag and Taking Patriotism Back from the GOP.

Younger voters are another story.

loudly threatening to withhold your vote for specific reason(s), and making sure the votee is aware of that - classic
not bothering to vote at all - dud

Mostly agree with this but obviously as soon as you admit that this is what you are doing the threat becomes meaningless.

How do you mean? I would have thought the opposite is true. and was the entire rationals of Uncommitted?

Interesting that less than half of self-identified Democrats have a positive view of capitalism, at least per Pew in 2022 — while majority had a positive view of socialism. Don't feel like that's particularly represented by the party!

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2022/09/19/modest-declines-in-positive-views-of-socialism-and-capitalism-in-u-s/

As soon as you admit that you are threatening to withold your vote but will never actually do so (i.e. not bothering to vote at all) your threat can be disregarded - you're kicking up a fuss but your vote is still guaranteed.

xpost

I’d like to vote for the party and not the candidate. This year it’s lot easier to do that if you’re a dem. Which I’m not

I can fully understand US women voting for an ugly bullshit centre-right political party of genocide because their reproductive rights are on the ballot and US trans people for their right to exist. And stick with the party with a nose peg on, because the alternative is life threatening in a very real way. But there will never be any meaningful change until there is a mass popular movement to break capitalism and it's stranglehold on corrupt client states is my take on this. This will just repeating over and over again ad infinitum "most important election ever" etc...

― vodkaitamin effrtvescent (calzino)

i didn't vote biden in '20, and i figure, you know, i figure i'll vote harris/walz in '24.

a couple of years ago i believed strongly, you know, believed strongly that we needed a mass popular movement to break capitalism, and i wanted to be a part of that, i wanted to be part of making that happen

and you know it's not on me. it's not on me to do that. i figure things will change eventually. i'd like things to have changed by now. i don't believe it can go on like this forever. i'm not the one to tell this old world how to get along, right? but i do need to get along myself. however i can.

and voting isn't that big a part of it for me. i don't think it'll make that much of a difference in my life, personally. i could be surprised. i just got bigger and more immediate threats than Project 2025. threats that have a lot to do with, like, not having economic security, not having really good economic prospects. if capitalism can figure out how to give me that stuff, fine. i don't believe it can. and as long as i don't believe it can, i can't really say i'm sticking with the party.

at this point, you know, they're not listening to me either way. they're gonna do what they want to do no matter how i vote. if we get a chance, if we get the power to where they have to listen, they have to take us seriously... i mean, maybe some day. i don't think it's gonna be through elections. so they keep on making their empty promises and i keep giving them my empty vote, hollow exchange, words, coins, movements.

i got plenty of hope and i got friends who are worried about what's gonna happen in november and it's not up to me. if i live, i live, if i die, i die. i'm going to keep trying to live, keep trying to enjoy life, as best i can. it's not easy.

not having economic security, not having really good economic prospects. if capitalism can figure out how to give me that stuff, fine. i don't believe it can.

yep, same

As soon as you admit that you are threatening to withold your vote but will never actually do so (i.e. not bothering to vote at all) your threat can be disregarded - you're kicking up a fuss but your vote is still guaranteed.

I thought the value in doing this was that the vote was a) not guaranteed, but b) gettable, but that it is only the signalling that makes it so, otherwise a non-vote is indistinguishable from that of someone who was busy that day

I had interpreted sleeve to be saying "classic to threaten to withold, dud to actually do so", which I basically agree with but with the problem I mentioned.

Oh yeah, I think any kind of leverage has to have a degree of uncertainty about it

I've been trying to collect my thoughts on this- not that the world is waiting for me to chime in, especially since I don't think I have anything new to say. I think this is a loaded question- the "ever" is what gets me. Yes, I'm sure there are some situations where it is a good strategy, but our discussion here and now is largely focused on the 2024 US election, which is a very specific situation. Our election system in the US is hugely flawed. The fact that we have two "real" parties (both of which want to maintain a good chunk of the status quo) and the other parties can serve only as spoilers means that our votes don't feel as meaningful as they should. Even more problematic is the amount of money and corporate interest that is poured into political campaigns- which shapes our political climate and entrenches a lot of what most of us hate about US politics and policies. How did we get there? The Roberts Supreme Court holds a lot of blame. Will withholding votes "fix" our broken system in any way, or will it make the Court any better? Not if it helps Republicans into the presidency or any other office. Republicans at this point are the party of making things worse, faster. The party of cheating their way to power, entrenching that power, and overriding the will of the voters. I'm not here to say that everyone here has to vote for Harris, or has to vote at all. That is a personal and private decision. But I can say that I feel that voting for Harris is the least I can do to help start tipping the scales back in the right direction. Really I should be doing a lot more, but in my mind I have to do that, at least. I voted for Hillary in 2016, but up to that point I was not what I would describe as a dedicated voter. I usually voted in presidential elections, but seldom in midterms or local elections. If there was one thing the Trump presidency taught me, it was to vote every chance I get. Job number one in my mind is to keep Republicans out of office. I understand wanting to withhold your vote to apply pressure for change, but I'm not sure it will accomplish that. It's just another tally in the "these people don't vote so we don't have to worry about them" column. And in our existing, hugely flawed political system, which voting or not voting will not change, anything that does not contribute to a Harris win is contributing to a Trump win. And I understand wanting to pressure Biden into changing his policies- as president, he has taken direct action to support Israel's attacks on Gaza. But Harris is not president yet. She has not yet outlined her policies, and in my mind, she just has not shown her hand yet. Which I can't blame her for- promising at this point to change our existing policy on Israel would expose a weak flank to Republicans which they would certainly attack and exploit. Her calculation could be that she needs to wait until after the election. I'm more than willing to give her that chance. In my mind, it's win the election first- preferably by a landslide which impacts downballot races and keeps Republicans out of every office we can. First keep Republicans out of power, then apply pressure to make the changes that we want.

But Harris is not president yet. She has not yet outlined her policies, and in my mind, she just has not shown her hand yet.

She made sure to toe the 'I will always ensure Israel maintains its ability to defend itself' party line in her big convention speech. Harris has outlined her policies and they are "nothing's going to change in regard to Israel." Like maybe she'll have a slightly frownier face when she feels Palestinians' pain before authorizing weapons sales to the state actively committing genocide (but probably not even that, Biden's face has been plenty frowny).

If enabling genocide isn't your line in the sand on supporting Democrats/Harris (for whatever reason that might be), fine. That's not a point to be argued, no one's mind is going to be changed.

But for the love of god please stop lying to yourself (or all of us) that you're just not sure what she's gonna do.

I guess it would be one thing if Trump was vowing to stop sending weapons to Israel, so you would have to weigh that against all the very real harms his administration is going to do. but we know he's not, and that in fact the official GOP platform on this is that Israel should "finish the job", so the idea of withholding your vote out of concern for the Palestinian people feels a little self-defeating to me. it reminds me of the folks who refuse to vote because the Dems climate platform is inadequate for them - if you're enabling the party promising to make Exxon-Mobil in charge of the EPA, how much do you care really? thing is I understand the logic it just sucks our political system is so fucked.

But for the love of god please stop lying to yourself (or all of us) that you're just not sure what she's gonna do.

I’ve said my piece, but I think this is inappropriate.

What I know for sure is what Trump would do if he gets back in office. Don’t tell me I know what will happen otherwise or that I am lying to myself or anyone else.

What I know for sure is what Trump would do if he gets back in office.

Israel will pursue a genocide against Palestinians living in Gaza and ethnic cleansing against Palestinians living in the West Bank? So like... what's happening now?

Man, I’m not here to argue with you. I just gave my perspective and that’s it. Obviously your own elevated perspective has been enshrined as protected from getting shouted down here. Maybe you can show the same consideration to people who don’t agree with you.

I think there are other politics threads for this. Many, many, many of them. You don't have to "correct" what is just a detail in a larger post about the thread topic. Not that I can stop you...

honestly, i think i am going to remove my bookmarks from this thread and the politics thread. it’s simply not worth the depression that i am filled with every time i open them.

that's probably a good idea, tabes. no sense in just making yourself feel bad when its avoidable. see you in other threads that aren't such a drag on you.

Apologies, I’m done

Sorry, I should have made it clear my comment about an unnecessary correction was directed at milo, not epistantophus.

lol the narratives crafted in order to comfort people into never withholding a vote are not 'a minor correction,' they're fundamental to this question even getting floated in the bullshit way it has been here

yep this is just another Aimless troll thread

Sleeve, since you've just discovered this is a troll thread, I suppose you'll apply the common bit of wisdom of not feeding the troll.

As for milo, you are free to post whatever you think is apt, as am I. Neither of us controls what gets written here. I'm not a mod.

Im not quite sure what’s going on but it appears that you seem to have started this thread with false presumptions regarding why certain folks/ilxors are “not voting” and using that to just push the whole spread off the table regarding why people “don’t vote”

Selling out vs. Handing the keys to the kingdom to Mephistopheles.

Not to relativise or anything, but can't we all empathise that both actions are repugnant and inflict moral injury?

trolley problems all the way down

you seem to have started this thread with false presumptions regarding why certain folks/ilxors are “not voting”

not sure why you got that idea. this debate has cropped up with depressing regularity on the US politics threads for years. this thread was explicitly started to keep the back and forth on the merits of not voting segregated in its own corner of the ilx universe. where did you find me expressing these false assumptions?

Interesting to compare with how little friction there was on this question with the UK poll. Most people in UK ilx voted, and much of the country in the end chose to stay home in one of the lowest turnouts.

Its 4th July, you live in rainy fash island..

yes, a comfortable majority of people voted, but it's kind of crazy to me that a full 20% did not. among the U.S. electorate as a whole, that would be considered extremely good turnout, but I'd be shocked if ILXor turnout in a general U.S. election was less than 90%.

yes, there are a couple of people who have made noise about not voting, but the reason there is friction is because that is such a fringe position among the type of people who post on ILX, who I think generally see voting as a civic responsibility, are engaged with the stakes of the election, and don't face the structural impediments that prevent many Americans from voting.

Considering that there used to be laws explicitly preventing me from voting and people died to change them so that I could vote without fear of death or reprisal, and furthermore that offshoots of the attitudes and conditions that fueled those laws led to the direct murders of two of my great-grandfathers, I have a very strong emotional reaction to the act of voting. It is absolutely the least I can do but there were multiple people in generations before me who thought it was so important that I have the opportunity to do it that they literally risked death and some of them were killed. I don’t think I would be holding up my end of the bargain if I didn’t vote at every opportunity presented to me.

Interesting to compare with how little friction there was on this question with the UK poll. Most people in UK ilx voted, and much of the country in the end chose to stay home in one of the lowest turnouts.

Its 4th July, you live in rainy fash island..🕸

Yeah sure, for me I guess it didn't matter even if the polling between Tories and Lab were a lot closer. I could've never, ever have turned out for this iteration of Labour.

A Lib Dem/Labour marginal would have provided the biggest moral test lol. Into the orange embrace? Oh god probably

I’ve already done it once (2010 & I’ve never been let forget it even though it was in a rock solid Labour seat).

Oh I did it too then haha

LIVE AND LEARN

"who I think generally see voting as a civic responsibility, are engaged with the stakes of the election"

From what I've seen the people making noises are highly engaged and sound like they have a sense of civic responsibility.

Certainly for my part I have been highly engaged, and know the issues closely but, in the UK, I felt literally no difference in outcome.

From what I've seen the people making noises are highly engaged and sound like they have a sense of civic responsibility.

Which is precisely why others have reacted so strongly. Most Americans who don't vote are either fundamentally disengaged from politics or unable to take the time to vote. These reasons are understandable. But if you are engaged and have a sense of responsibility and the ability to do so, why *wouldn't* you vote? Maybe I live in a bubble, but voting feels like a social norm; if I didn't vote, I'd be ashamed to admit it.

Even if you know that it won't make a difference in outcome, you vote because that's what you do as a citizen.