could you summarize your posts in this thread then? other than dogged defending of a clearly underinformed person I’m confused
― brony james (k3vin k.), Monday, 20 May 2024 22:57 (two weeks ago) link
there was also something about a celebrity comic I’m still unclear about
― brony james (k3vin k.), Monday, 20 May 2024 22:58 (two weeks ago) link
did piers morgan have a special on this recently?
a bit sad that those who should know better would line up like this to demonize a working-class woman working extra hours in a broken, male-dominated system, but ingrained misogyny and class discrimination runs deep even in the U.K. I guess
― brony james (k3vin k.), Monday, 20 May 2024 bookmarkflaglink
That's not my read on boxedjoy's posting at all. I think almost everyone here (and certainly UK posters) can see that class and gender dynamic.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 20 May 2024 23:02 (two weeks ago) link
that was a teasing retort to the left field minhaj non-sequitur
― brony james (k3vin k.), Monday, 20 May 2024 23:05 (two weeks ago) link
Ok not read it.
I would hope Letby can get a better defence team for the upcoming trial and that some of the defects in the medical evidence as highlighted in the piece might come up.
Beyond that I am amazed at the certainty many of you have of her innocence. This is just one piece that has possibly left things out and highlighted others to fit another narrative.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 20 May 2024 23:10 (two weeks ago) link
look I’m a physician, not a lawyer, I’m no legal expert. I know bad medical reasoning when I see it and the medical/statistical evidence in this case is (tragically) laughable. I don’t expect anyone here to be able to grasp that.
I’m mostly poking fun at the (from an american POV) biographical evidence against her that some are defending. and wondering whether that speaks to a pathological addiction to tabloid news and fealty to institutions that is characteristically british
― brony james (k3vin k.), Monday, 20 May 2024 23:14 (two weeks ago) link
there's some later replies that I'm still working out my response to - ufo's "guilty til proven innocent" take on my perspective doesn't seem entirely unfair to me - but I'm going to immediately push back on the idea that misogyny is at the heart of this, when narrative reported here was of predominantly male senior managers protecting her from police investigations in the first instance, trying to deal with it internally instead
also, nearly all of my understanding of this has come from the BBC, the Guardian and the independent, and the newspapers in the local area. No news source is perfect but they're not exactly the same as The Sun and Daily Star. Their coverage has mostly* eschewed the Letby personal gossip, with the story being one of how an institution was so weak and underfunded and poorly managed that this happened - not, as is suggested, that the institution itself was infallible
― boxedjoy, Monday, 20 May 2024 23:16 (two weeks ago) link
i don't have an issue with raising the possibility that the article was cherry-picking things but k3vin is absolutely right about that quoted section of boxedboy's post being 'not serious' and felicity's post seemed pretty tangential to that.
i don't think there is much of an issue with the article leaving out things that it did though - it raises serious questions about the medical evidence that backs up the idea that crimes actually occurred, which is the core of the case and without that everything else isn't evidence of anything much at all. the only thing i can think of that may have been worth addressing is the claim she was seen attacking a baby - that was at least a claim of something more substantial than all the circumstantial evidence that doesn't actually do anything to demonstrate any crimes occurred and can be interpreted however one likes.
― ufo, Monday, 20 May 2024 23:43 (two weeks ago) link
Beyond that I am amazed at the certainty many of you have of her innocence.
Can't speak for anyone else but I'm not certain about anything. Based on the New Yorker story it sounds like the actual evidence for a crime even having been committed seems a bit thin — and the evidence that this one particular nurse is a serial baby-killer seems even thinner. That doesn't mean she didn't do it, just that I have a hard time seeing a burden of proof having been met.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Tuesday, 21 May 2024 00:26 (one week ago) link
My gut feeling remains that she probably did it but that doesn't change the fact that all the evidence is circumstantial and now it seems also pretty problematic. I'm guessing the conviction will eventually be overturned, many years down the track.
― Zelda Zonk, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 00:42 (one week ago) link
The New Yorker piece, standing alone, appears to be an extremely damning expose for the prosecution and defense. I defer to k3vin k's impressions as a medical practitioner, a field in which I have no expertise.
From a US legal perspective, it's difficult to wrap my head around the idea that the defense did not call its medical expert, or that the defendant might not get even a first appeal as of right. But mine is a US perspective, and to me why the perspectives of those in the UK who have followed the case over a sustained period of time and are bringing up other facts that were not addressed in the New Yorker article are of interest as well.
― felicity, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 01:14 (one week ago) link
I've read that it's very hard to get UK medical experts to testify in these kinds of cases, following a case where an expert witness got struck off for giving misleading evidence. So sometimes defence teams fly in an expert from the US, but obviously you need money to do that
― Zelda Zonk, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 01:21 (one week ago) link
USA: kinda weird you can’t read this articleU.K.: But she did itUSA: no I don’t care about this case I just mean it’s weird you can’t read this article, censorship etcU.k.: amazed you consider her innocent!
― brimstead, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 01:24 (one week ago) link
In the US, some of the best experts do not want to offer their expertise at trial because the entire job of the opposing counsel is to tear down the basis of the expert's credibility and for some it is simply not worth the profession hit to their reputation. It's a massive flaw in the adversarial system.
― felicity, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 01:25 (one week ago) link
xp why not conflate the posts of as many as ten different people into one, that’ll help
― Roman Anthony gets on his horse (gyac), Tuesday, 21 May 2024 01:35 (one week ago) link
i haven't seen a satisfactory explanation from anyone as to why the defence didn't call the medical witness they did have ready, that's one of the most baffling aspects of the whole case.
― ufo, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 01:55 (one week ago) link
USA: kinda weird you can’t read this articleU.K.: But she did itUSA: no I don’t care about this case I just mean it’s weird you can’t read this article, censorship etcU.k.: amazed you consider her innocent!― brimstead, Monday, 20 May 2024 9:24 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink
― brimstead, Monday, 20 May 2024 9:24 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink
lol otm
― flopson, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 02:58 (one week ago) link
"i don't think there is much of an issue with the article leaving out things that it did though"
Americans are crying about a miscarriage of justice when they would've executed her by now.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 06:51 (one week ago) link
But at least we would've been able to read a moving, highly literary account about this.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 06:57 (one week ago) link
Tangentially related: Amanda Knox recently wrote this article about a convicted murderer she campaigned on behalf of, who she now believes is guilty
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/jens-soring-amanda-knox-case-wright-report/678255/
― Number None, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 10:11 (one week ago) link
xpost RIP Casey Anthony
― A So-Called Pulitzer price winner (President Keyes), Tuesday, 21 May 2024 13:37 (one week ago) link
I just read that telegraph article from about 100 posts ago and it is a truly *fascinating* document lol
― brony james (k3vin k.), Tuesday, 21 May 2024 14:06 (one week ago) link
xp - always a lucky one
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 15:51 (one week ago) link
the new yorker is crazy obsessed with england lately … there was that article about the tories, then the baby article, now one about the british museum…
― slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 21 May 2024 16:25 (one week ago) link
i just think it's nice the new yorker is bringing us and uk ilxors together in a good old fashioned clusterfuck, it's been too long!
― he/him hoo-hah (map), Tuesday, 21 May 2024 16:27 (one week ago) link
We've had an American talking to Brits about class. That's got to be a first in these clusterfucks!
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 16:37 (one week ago) link
now one about the british museum…
Knew without looking that this had to be by Rebecca Mead. (She lives in London and frequently writes about British cultural stuff.)
― jaymc, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 16:50 (one week ago) link
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, May 21, 2024 12:37 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink
if this is about me, I was “taking the piss” with that post
― brony james (k3vin k.), Tuesday, 21 May 2024 18:22 (one week ago) link
Thought that was the nurse's job.
― felicity, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 18:39 (one week ago) link
"taking the piss" vs "calculating a p-value"
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 18:44 (one week ago) link
Rebecca Mead wrote that awful piece about how she hates it when her children read children's books, and that's always coloured my perception of her as a bit of a [raspberry noise] even though lots of her work is just fine
― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 20:07 (one week ago) link
I think that's that.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/24/lucy-letby-loses-attempt-to-appeal-against-baby-convictions
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 24 May 2024 10:30 (one week ago) link
So, are we allowed to read the article now?
― This is Dance Anthems, have some respect (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, 24 May 2024 10:36 (one week ago) link
Minus side: this is a miscarriage of juatice!
Plus side: flopson has even less of a point now
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 24 May 2024 10:39 (one week ago) link
The appeal was based on a point of law - something to do with the judge's indtructions to the jury iirc - rather than the evidence. There's still a retrial pending. I would imagine that once the retrial is complete there will be reporting restrictions lifted which will explain more. But this alone isn't the "see America you were wrong" I've already seen it portrayed in some corners as.
― boxedjoy, Friday, 24 May 2024 10:44 (one week ago) link
She's still going on trial for another murder. I'm wondering if the defence can now bring up some of the problematic stuff mentioned in the NYer article
― Zelda Zonk, Friday, 24 May 2024 10:47 (one week ago) link
― xyzzzz__, Friday, May 24, 2024 6:39 AM (fifty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
in what sense?
― brony james (k3vin k.), Friday, 24 May 2024 11:37 (one week ago) link
It was a joke on "are we allowed to read the article?" Flopson's trolly point that UK ppl found the blocking to be 'good' was a nuisance given that the wall was easy enough to bypass, for one.
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 24 May 2024 11:56 (one week ago) link
according to a friend living in china it's pretty easy to by-pass the censors there, too
― flopson, Saturday, 25 May 2024 15:58 (one week ago) link
I think that's that.https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/24/lucy-letby-loses-attempt-to-appeal-against-baby-convictions― xyzzzz__, Friday, May 24, 2024 6:30 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglinkSo, are we allowed to read the article now?― This is Dance Anthems, have some respect (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, May 24, 2024 6:36 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
― xyzzzz__, Friday, May 24, 2024 6:30 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
― This is Dance Anthems, have some respect (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, May 24, 2024 6:36 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
nope:
Reporting of the appeal is limited as restrictions are in place.Letby was given 14 whole-life sentences for her crimes and is due to face a retrial on one count of attempted murder at Manchester crown court next month.
Letby was given 14 whole-life sentences for her crimes and is due to face a retrial on one count of attempted murder at Manchester crown court next month.
another slam dunk for the contempt of court law's reporting restrictions :)
― flopson, Saturday, 25 May 2024 16:06 (one week ago) link
― flopson, Saturday, 25 May 2024 bookmarkflaglink
Not even President Xi can mess with archive ph
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 25 May 2024 16:09 (one week ago) link
"https://archive.ph is 100% blocked in China"
https://en.greatfire.org/https/archive.ph
― bulb after bulb, Saturday, 25 May 2024 16:11 (one week ago) link
my friend uses a vpn. according to him the censors can still see what you're doing on your vpn, but they turn a blind eye if it's banal enough. i asked because i noticed that he was still posting on instagram and twitter after moving to shanghai
― flopson, Saturday, 25 May 2024 16:29 (one week ago) link
Good article on the DSM as arbiter of personal identity in a recent issue.
― o. nate, Tuesday, 28 May 2024 18:34 (six days ago) link