Real love -- I'm, like, searchin' for that Queer Love -- LGBTQIA+ Love // A Thread for the Real Ones

Every single person I have dated longterm I met in person first.

I lived in Sam Francisco, which has the best cruising, gay bar, and public sex culture of any city in the US. I didn’t need a phone.

Heh -- Miami's no slouch in those departments.

Makes sense. I needed to meet dudes online to build the courage to cruise like I do now. I was a little older when I came out (25 y/o).

I was too! (23)! I just dove into dick-hunting, making up for lost time.

honestly I think the apps vs IRL thing is a false binary, but also think that one can be more amenable personality-wise to one or the other. i am definitely more amenable to meeting people in-person, mostly because “chemistry” is something I cannot get from the apps. I also started resenting being ghosted and manipulated on dating sites, not to mention tired of going on dates with total fucking bores when I could have been doing something else.

Deflatormouse, do you do any like sports or physical activities? I have met a lot of nice homos while climbing, and I know a ton of queer and non-binary cyclists and runners here in Philly

i will say that i don't see there being a strict divide between "online" and "in person", particularly as someone who came out just before covid. for me that's not the "apps". the main way i connect with other people online is through discord, but even ilx, lately i've been connecting and meeting up with people online through there. that was how it used to be with usenet in the '90s. most of my friends were through newsgroups, and i'd meet up with them in person, even had a couple of... i wouldn't call them "relationships", but i got with a couple people that way and had a miserable time for reasons i didn't understand back then. i got bullied and rejected a lot, i wasn't like most people, and online was a way for me to connect with other people in ways that weren't socially acceptable in "mainstream" interactions. part of that was me being kind of an edgelord, part of that was me not having appropriate emotional boundaries with other people, but it was, like. just being able to express myself authentically. and then when usenet died i kinda lost that, got lost for a while, got with my ex-wife and tried to be "normal", got a facebook account.

when i came out i wanted, like a lot of the people around me, to have a "slut era". i was surrounded by people who were really hot and really thirsty and many of them were attracted to me. but it's all within this one small community. i've never been the kind of person who could do anonymous sex, and when you're getting with people you see socially on a regular basis... shit gets real complicated, real quick. a lot of the reason i broke up with my ex-wife was to slut around, but i was worried that it wasn't something i really wanted. it wasn't something i really wanted, turns out. my "slut era" didn't involve any actual slutting. like i was "poly" but had one partner during that time. at the same time i don't regret breaking up with my ex-wife, because going through that experience helped me understand what was really important to me. which was, like, not being dependent on other people for my sense of self-worth. that process involved a lot more trauma than it did hot sex, but i don't, like, feel like i missed out on hot sex. because if it's not gonna make me happy, you know, it's not worth it for me. i've had enough sex that was hot but made me miserable.

-

i'm pretty insecure about how sedentary i am. out here, you know, there are a lot of "hiking lesbians". my body can't do that, hasn't ever been able to do that sort of intense physical activity. i want to be fit, i want to have, like, a strong core, mostly because it allows me to do thing i couldn't do otherwise. part of the reason i wasn't able to do things with my QPP is because she just wasn't physically healthy enough for any sort of intimacy. i figure the more stuff i can do, the longer i can do it for, the more fun i have. but i'm in my late 40s, i'm dyspraxic, i can't bike or do long hiking. well, i do my best, at least! :)

i'm with alfred on this. i was thinking recently how formative communicating thru AIM as a teenager has been on my life ... when i think back on myself in high school one of the first images that comes to mind is me sitting in my room late at night talking w/ my friends thru instant messenger. so that method of communication has always been comfortable for me. in my experience if i have chemistry chatting w/ someone online then we will make for friends as well, so when i'm cruising online it's a filtration mechanism that works for me. my boyfriend and i were in the same professional circles but we "met" via instagram DM where we proceeded to talk for like 2 hours straight after first saying hi. it was a good signal to me that i should be taking the prospect of meeting this person very seriously

i would ofc 100% agree w/ the argument that cruising/filtering for partners online presents a number of pitfalls. there's guys i see in bars or clubs who i clock as someone i might not choose to hook up w/ if i just saw pictures but in person there is something that makes it all click. but the process of meeting people online has a good track record of helping me find guys i want to fuck who i also want to be around generally, it's led me to a number of longterm partners and friends

What surprises me more is learning how many men-under-35 have absolutely no experience with “picking up”. I recall telling a youthier man about my first Pride— I clocked a hot one, went up to him and said he was cute and did he want to walk with me? yes he did, and we ended up having sex that afternoon and never seeing each other again— and the youthier man was shocked that one could be so bold.

Every time I’ve loaded up Grindr, in comparison, there’ve been so many dicks flying at my face that I start to feel the same level of sexual interest as I do while watching this Instagram video:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6mTcgYOAIb/?igsh=MTFuOHNvZ2xzdmVmdQ==

The young are having less sex generally. COVID didn't help.

What surprises me more is learning how many men-under-35 have absolutely no experience with “picking up”

me!! basically

I mean, what wonderful times were had? My first trip to SXSW, I wanted a “gay break” from the band I was in, so I went to a place called (I think?) “Boys Cellar”, participated in an amateur strip contest and came in third. I stripped to “Milkshake” and used a book and my glasses as props

I went back a second time and got picked up by a dude who lived south of the city. He drove me back to his and we had unsatisfying sex. He had an expensive guitar in his living room and confessed he’d not played it even once. As he drove me home he talked to me about his job— that he was a developer, and the moraine we were driving through had been blocked for development by activists, but he’d recently got the city on his side. I considered jumping out of the car as we sped down the highway. I emerged from the vehicle and the band I was in was chilling on the patio of the vegan co-op at which we were staying. “Where were you?” they asked. “In hell!” I replied

Top three best blow job of my life was from a Dubya guy.

some of us grew up in the shadow of george michael's arrest and constant media panic about the gays corrupting the youth by being too sexy in public

I'm not a man but I can dress up like one well enough and I wouldn't have a clue how to even start picking someone up in public

there are enough ways to arrange sexual encounters online these days but part of me does wish I could just be having anonymous encounters in parks or wherever if I wasn't terrified of assault and/or criminal charges

xp that's obscene

ha, i really like the term "gay break"

A hatefuck in 2004 xpost

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/16/33/e8/1633e807e56a83d1e60e39fb8270b58f.gif

she came over today to take me to urgent care this morning (i fell in the shower and gave myself an accidental lip piercing)

oh fuck! I'm sorry :( how are you feeling?? happened to me once when I was like 11
my idiot friend dragged me to laser tag and some aggressive idiot several years older than us smacked me in the face with the gun & split my lower lip practically in 2
NOT FUN

I'm not a man but I can dress up like one well enough

I am not experimenting with presentation a lot at this stage so most people just assume I am male
my gender identity is invisible to others most of the time unless I make it a point to tell them which isn't great
because I feel negated by the invisibility, when other gay guys just regard me as a gay guy because it's easier and convenient and I can say by the way my pronouns are "they/them" but it doesn't really change that perception.
so then when an app makes me revert to my received gender to match me with anyone, that sucks
like it undermines the work I've done

ughh just getting started here. I'll pick this up overnight when my shift dies down.

it's nice to hear from everyone.

OTM <3

indeed

that was an awesome post Kate tho I had to google a bunch of the terminology. the estranged bestie I ran into was a lot like a QPP! we didn't really share the same interests. the thing we had in common is we are both very kid-like. it was based on mutual affection. we knew each other so well and cared about each other really deeply... and that hasn't changed, actually. But we were all too willing to do things we didn't really want to do for each other out of kindness, or an instinct to support. neither one of us was any good at saying no until we'd passed a breaking point.

we had a group of friends then where none of us shared the same interests. and that’s what I want! one of my big frustrations socially has been that music is still too big a part of the social fabric for something that's been a secondary interest (at most) for such a long time... because a lot of my enduring friendships developed out of playing music with people or nerding out about music, I mean my god there is so much social currency in it, and so much tribal bullshit… and I'm sick of having these expansively referential conversations about music, where if I change the subject it always comes back to that. it's numbing. but I miss having those lighter, more sensual kinds of friendships that aren’t burdened by some shared media hyper-literacy. Where’s the nearest currency exchange?

if i'm at a party and i'm not interested in someone i don't think about it, i'll naturally gravitate towards the people i _am_ interested in, but a dating app, it'll be like "how about her, are you interested in her?" and i'm supposed to make that decision based on, what, three pictures and a joke about the last book they read? ick.

^^^exactly
But it’s not just any 3 pictures, it’s *the same* 3 pictures, it’s a format. Everything is so standardized, there is basically nothing to differentiate one profile from another. And then when someone messages me it’s something really nondescript and generic like “hey what are you up to”, because I mean of course, what else are you going to say to someone if the only thing you know of them is the same 3 pictures everyone else has?
What am I supposed to derive from this, except a sense of the likelihood (or not) that I might be physically attracted to the person in the 3 pictures? And then I end up swiping left if anyone has written a sentence or two about conversations or empathy, because at least it’s something, even though it’s really not enough.
You know what though, I will always pick the ones who post the most lethargic selfies, or like if they only have 2 pics which are terrible and they are wearing the same shirt in both of them, anything that screams ‘idgaf’

Having said all that, Alfred sized me up very quickly and accurately. It’s not hard to understand my position as a kind of stubbornness.

I also started resenting being ghosted and manipulated on dating sites, not to mention tired of going on dates with total fucking bores when I could have been doing something else.

Rings a bell… i had a few experiences like that which I tend to forget, and thinking back on those makes me feel like ‘yeah fuck this’. maybe it’s selective memory, but also I was more inclined to go out with people if they seemed interesting or kind, even if I thought it unlikely that I’d be attracted to them based on their pics. I’d think, it’s worth a shot, and it was sometimes! Even though it was probably very unfair of me to do that. But I learned right away that body types don’t actually matter to me at all when it comes to sexual attraction, which is pretty cool & good to know.

Deflatormouse, do you do any like sports or physical activities? I have met a lot of nice homos while climbing, and I know a ton of queer and non-binary cyclists and runners here in Philly

Yes! I like open water swimming especially, I might have mentioned this once or twice ;)
I like most water sports a lot actually! And I really like shooting hoops, even though I’m terrible at it and wouldn’t have the stamina to actually play basketball for real.
But omg I HATE bouldering!! I wish I loved it because you’re right, most of the people I’ve known who are into bouldering are super cool. So cool, in fact, that I even took a few private lessons to help get caught up. it just didn’t take. I generally love outdoor physical activity as long as I don’t have to climb anything but it’s more of an outlet for my schizoid/avoidant tendencies. as map has also said I usually only enjoy nature when there are few or no other people around.

i'm pretty insecure about how sedentary i am. out here, you know, there are a lot of "hiking lesbians". my body can't do that, hasn't ever been able to do that sort of intense physical activity. i want to be fit, i want to have, like, a strong core, mostly because it allows me to do thing i couldn't do otherwise. part of the reason i wasn't able to do things with my QPP is because she just wasn't physically healthy enough for any sort of intimacy. i figure the more stuff i can do, the longer i can do it for, the more fun i have. but i'm in my late 40s, i'm dyspraxic, i can't bike or do long hiking. well, i do my best, at least!

You know, I never wanted to visit PDX because, I guess, the Decemberists annoy me, and so do the Dandy Warhols, but recently I saw pictures of Newoskin Beach and I WANT TO GO, really badly, it is like my top bucket list destination in the contiguous states. If I ever make it out there YOU ARE COMING WITH ME. Right? It doesn’t have to be strenuous or intense or anything like that.

Map, that aerial photo is Chinese to me but I googled the places you mentioned and it looks really special. I like knowing that you’re doing things like this when you don’t post here much.

I was too! (23)! I just dove into dick-hunting, making up for lost time.

Yes, I was over 20 and hungry for it, but a couple of things held me back (specifically: relationships, shame). I wish I had really gone for it.

i got bullied and rejected a lot, i wasn't like most people, and online was a way for me to connect with other people in ways that weren't socially acceptable in "mainstream" interactions. part of that was me being kind of an edgelord, part of that was me not having appropriate emotional boundaries with other people, but it was, like. just being able to express myself authentically

i'm with alfred on this. i was thinking recently how formative communicating thru AIM as a teenager has been on my life. when i think back on myself in high school one of the first images that comes to mind is me sitting in my room late at night talking w/ my friends thru instant messenger.

ha, i really like the term "gay break”

Yes, fgti posts are full of these gems, I loved that story, hell indeed.

Top three best blow job of my life was from a Dubya guy.

Dubba Dubba Dubya
https://media.tenor.com/QEKTXklXwaQAAAAM/michigan-frog-happy.gif

Alfred, I’m kind of vaguely under the impression that you prefer short term relationships, but you’ve never expressed this, so that’s probably wrong?

hey so this thread kinda fell off my radar which i regret, a lot of times i feel like i'm thread-killing particularly when i make a long post haha.

had kind of a heavy week. spent most of the week stressing about this social event friday, which didn't go great, but in a way that's, like. not necessarily _bad_. just trying to process my relationship with the Greater Portland Polycule. The Polycule, I'm starting to call it this week.

in theory it's a really good idea. we got a whole town jam packed with hot thirsty queer sluts and we know each other socially and we know who can provide what and kind of have a good time together. from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs, you know?

so ok, point one is a practical one - nobody wants to top. that's not to say nobody tops. i top. i'm very dommy and very willing to dish it out. i'm not a top, though, i'm a _switch_. like you know, three is a supply and demand issue. you got two kinds of people in the kink economy - you got switches and you got bottoms. you don't got people who only top.

by the way the nomenclature around this is very squishy (not as in the ace meaning of the term "squish"), queer language is in constant flux, trying to negotiate our way collectively around things there aren't adequate words for. words like top and dom, vers and switch, bottom and sub, these _aren't_ interchangeable but they're fluid enough that reading any specific meaning into them other than positionality, in a broader sense, isn't something i can do. which is why people have the dreaded Spreadsheets. not just to keep track of one's social calendar, but to try to communicate one's ability and needs meaningfully. though admittedly we're also pretty much all autistic as fuck.

anyway the thing is that even though i'm a switch, due to the "top shortage" topping starts to feel like a burden. i'm on strike, actually, i refuse to top unless i get some on the right side of the slash. that's not uncommon, a lot of actual play is transactionally negotiated between two switches.

for someone like me The Polycule is, honestly, more of a burden than anything else. i'm a huge fucking slut in certain senses, but none of that matters too much unless i can get my intimacy needs met on an individual level.

i can't just, like... if i date anyone here, i have to take into consideration their relationships with people in the extended Polycule. not just the people they're currently in relationships with. their exes. the exes of their partners. the partners of their exes. this seems like a good time to repeat that we're pretty much all autistic as fuck. most of us are in tech and can do calculus, just not _this_ kind of calculus.

you don't have a big happy family here. you have a lot of people with complicated personal issues and complicated relationship issues. one doesn't get to go no-contact with anyone here, no matter how badly they hurt you or how badly you hurt them.

-

so when i talk about feeling like i've "rediscovered monogamy", that's kind of what i mean. navigating The Polycule is so far above my current skill level that i'd much prefer to get involved with someone outside of The Polycule. i'm not jealous, but monogamy is a great way to render polycule calculus irrelevant. since i'm single now, i guess that's irrelevant.

i really do wish i could get my needs met with casual sex. like i said, though... complicated personal issues. "dating" for me is going out looking for someone who will pretend to kidnap me and keep me in their basement. even by the standards of gay sex that strikes me as being kind of risky. like, in practical terms, i guess it doesn't matter _that_ much, in terms of... sexually assaulting trans women is a free action, anybody can do it at any time for any reason and larger society will hold the victim responsible (and to be clear, being sexually assaulted isn't my fault _even if I literally asked for it_). just personally though... i've learnt well the lesson "you can get what you want and still not be very happy". i can be kind of skittish.

or more specifically i can go to a kink social event, break down in tears, and have to leave early. which was me last night. i felt pretty bad about it until i went on fet and realized that...

here's the thing, if i'm gonna ask somebody to kidnap me and keep me in their basement, they have to be someone i _respect_. and when i see how members of The Polycule behave on a regular basis, like, nothing against them, but i kind of have a hard time doing that. you know what i respect? people who like and respect themselves. you know who've been taught their whole lives to be ashamed of themselves, to hate themselves, to think of themselves as monsters? queer kinky people. it's kind of important to me that people i date _not_ think of themselves as monsters. i mean i read _mother night_. maybe other people would think of doing the stuff i want people to do to me as monstrous shit and i, like, don't? Problematic, absolutely. if other people think i'm a monster, think the stuff i'm into is monstrous, that's on them. it's not wrong or bad or evil for me to like the things i like and want to do the things i do, as long as, you know, it's got the "risk aware and consensual". for me, that means i don't play with people who think they're monsters.

which is to say that i'm very lonely a lot of the time. which puts a huge amount of pressure on me. i'm under a lot of pressure to do emotionally unhealthy things that will leave me feeling bad and gross and disgusting. if anybody here doesn't know what _that_ feels like, well, God bless.

-

anyway look just because i'm 6 am sadposting doesn't mean everything has to be all doom and gloom. i want to talk about something more upbeat like my recent facial injury. it's starting to heal up a bit and i've decided that i am, in fact, actually looking forward to having a scar. i think things like that add character. i don't get by on being classically beautiful, i get by on being _interesting_. i haven't decided if i'm going to tell people that i got it from getting my lip pierced at a mall kiosk or if it's a dueling scar. maybe i'll split the difference and say it's from a duel at a mall kiosk. that seems like a very 'me' thing to say.

You know, I never wanted to visit PDX because, I guess, the Decemberists annoy me, and so do the Dandy Warhols, but recently I saw pictures of Newoskin Beach and I WANT TO GO, really badly, it is like my top bucket list destination in the contiguous states. If I ever make it out there YOU ARE COMING WITH ME. Right? It doesn’t have to be strenuous or intense or anything like that.

look nobody i know acknowledges the existence of either the dandy warhols or the decembrists. if there's any rock band at all people here acknowledge it's dead moon. i've never actually heard dead moon, though (don't @ me), so even if you don't like them it's not a problem. how do you feel about fucked up trans girls with synthesizers and black metal side projects? because that's portland the portland music scene. theoretically i should be getting with some of them because we have shared special interests and that's how you get into an autistic person's pants, but none of them even _have_ basements. hell, half of us don't even have homes.

here's my point absolutely yes come visit pdx. there are a couple people here who have met me and can i hope speak well for me. although i'm not sure how many of them are on the queer thread. i'm very open-minded, i have heterosexual friends.

You know what though, I will always pick the ones who post the most lethargic selfies, or like if they only have 2 pics which are terrible and they are wearing the same shirt in both of them, anything that screams ‘idgaf’

hmmm. that's interesting. see for me like... it's like i said earlier, i'm into people who give off a vibe of liking and respecting themselves, and i mean. my selfie game is weak, i don't look hot at all in selfies, i look like someone's mom, but i'm hot and i do actually care about my appearance... it's really important to me to have a partner who thinks i'm really hot. i've gotten into too many unhappy relationships witih people who have really low self-esteem. mind you sometimes people feel the need to look gorgeous _because_ they have low self-esteem. i'd say there's, like, a middle path there.

my gender identity is invisible to others most of the time unless I make it a point to tell them which isn't great
because I feel negated by the invisibility, when other gay guys just regard me as a gay guy because it's easier and convenient and I can say by the way my pronouns are "they/them" but it doesn't really change that perception.
so then when an app makes me revert to my received gender to match me with anyone, that sucks

i don't know if it helps but i feel like when it comes to looking for intimacy i get treated like a gay dude a lot. like it doesn't matter that i pass, the second someone finds out people's brains just go "dude". not even consciously, it's not even, like, a question of whether someone's individually "transphobic", we were all programmed that fucking much to think "trans woman" = "dude looks like a lady". i'm not super happy about it honestly, but fuck it, there's nothing wrong with gay men, gay men are awesome, if people are gonna think of me as an f-slur, i don't have a problem in principle with it. i'm just not going to get with people like that. being treated like a guy in bed makes me feel super gross.

with guys it's complicated. i'm really attracted to guys and honestly i vibe more with gay guys with straight guys. i'm a woman and i'm attracted to men but in an extremely gay way, and either people don't believe it or just go "huh?" like it doesn't make logical sense, and that's what "love is love" means to me, none of this shit makes any kind of sense at all, just do your best to treat other people well, own your shit, and fuckin' go with it.

admittedly i don't necessarily "go with it", unless "going with it" means crying and leaving a queer social event early. i'm working on it.

Alfred, I’m kind of vaguely under the impression that you prefer short term relationships, but you’ve never expressed this, so that’s probably wrong?

― Deflatormouse, Wednesday, May 8, 2024

Or none at all!

For Alfred the relationships are less about length, more about girth

"Girth, that is!"

https://i.imgur.com/YKDH4dP.jpg

my life in a nutshell
i went out for brunch and a girl gave me her phone number
i mean maybe nothing comes of it, and if so that's fine. last night i was mooning over how nobody could ever possibly be interested in me and this morning a girl starts up a conversation with me and my (monogamously married) friend and hands me her phone number. it helps keep my spirits up, you know?

I got a work email informing me that today is the International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia, Intersexism, and Transphobia, or IDAHOBIT

It is wrong that my immediate reaction to this is “you spelled hobbit wrong”, right

Sméagol hates nasty IDAHOBITs!

calling tater tots “Idaho bits” from now on

anyone else here try some idaho bits? i sure have

kate did you end up texting that girl?

yeah we're doing brunch tomorrow

she's bringing me a pothos

i got a brown thumb but i figure hell with it, i got plant hangers in my apartment

she also has sourdough starter that's over 100 years old

hell yeah

met an insanely hot marxist poet from glasgow tonight

I would love to meet an insanely hot Marxist poet from anywhere.

um hellllooo

In Montreal for a bit. Everything about this city is queer-coded. I'm staying in an industrial-space-turned-artist-loft, a very Philadelphia ca. 2005 place, these places don't exist in Toronto any more. Last night there were two (2) DIY shows in my building. I went to both. I also saw a harp improv set down the street. Was hoping to see scott's son's band around the corner but ran out of time. I had a bagel this morning, with chicken cheese and pesto on it. The bagel was perfect, the cheese was perfect, the chicken was meat plucked off a roasted bird. But: the tomato and lettuce were on the sandwich while it was getting warmed, so there was hot lettuce on the sandwich. My chin got slapped in the face with flaming hot lettuce. "When's the last time I was subjected to hot lettuce?" I asked myself, while noting that all the elements of the sandwich were a cut above anything I could expect in other places. Montreal is where my heart is, I love it here. I wish I still lived here.

Slap it back!

Mmmmm. That was nice. I mean uh. Other than a little hair-pulling nothing went on but we are _definitely_ gonna talk further.

hey so this thread kinda fell off my radar which i regret, a lot of times i feel like i'm thread-killing particularly when i make a long post haha.

you're very sweet, I appreciate it <3

some threads need to die! not this one though, I should focus my energies elsewhere.

srsly posting is all or nothing with me lately, can't seem to find the balance

I really enjoyed reading about the Greater Portland Polycule! it felt like talking to someone in a coffee shop in the middle of the night, I wish the internet was still like that. It sounds like you're ready for a change (glad you had a sweet date!)

i don't know if it helps but i feel like when it comes to looking for intimacy i get treated like a gay dude a lot. like it doesn't matter that i pass, the second someone finds out people's brains just go "dude". not even consciously, it's not even, like, a question of whether someone's individually "transphobic", we were all programmed that fucking much to think "trans woman" = "dude looks like a lady".

well, no, that doesn't make me feel better.
the reason it sucks - just makes me feel it will be simpler and easier not to reckon with this, just keep the autopilot running. believe me, I do not need any added incentive to do that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPLBPOIP1xI

well, no, that doesn't make me feel better.
the reason it sucks - just makes me feel it will be simpler and easier not to reckon with this, just keep the autopilot running. believe me, I do not need any added incentive to do that

― Deflatormouse, Sunday, May 19, 2024 6:40 PM (yesterday)

i mean in a lot of ways it _is_ simpler and easier to not reckon with it, even someone like me who has a fuckton of privilege, passing and otherwise. it's tough. i've had to go through a lot.

i don't _regret_ it, though. the things i've done were hard and they hurt, and i'm not happy. and my life isn't amazing. and i don't really know that things will get better for me. and i don't regret it. not just that i'm... it's not even that i'm _proud_ of what i've done, although i certainly am proud of it. i'm happy _that_ i've done the things i've done, that i've made the decisions i've made. i'm happy that i transitioned, i'm happy that i left my ex-wife, all of these things that seemed like the stupidest things ever at the time. i didn't get what i wanted, what i hoped for out of them, but i got things i didn't expect, _good_ things i didn't expect. i got all the bad things i expected from transition and more. all of the good things i got... i didn't expect any of them. and it's not like they were _so_ good that i couldn't even imagine them. it's more that they were good, and i couldn't have imagined them happening.

i didn't transition because i _wanted_ to. i didn't leave my ex-wife because i _wanted_ to. i did those things because i was more afraid _not_ to. because of what i'd felt, because i had this experience that things could be different than i'd ever known. and the alternative was, i don't know, keep on doing what i'm doing and wait to die. that was _simple_ i guess but it wasn't easy.

i was talking with my friend, we're talking about food. and nearly all of us have a disordered relationship with food to some extent, either the skinny twinks who can't eat or the ones like me and my friend who eat whenever we're stressed, which is always. one of the things i've had to learn is how to listen to my body. i got up and i had breakfast and i was still hungry and i listened to my body and my body said "i need green vegetables", so i took a thing of asparagus out of the freezer and heated it up and ate a bag of asparagus, right there. and that's not the way i was taught to eat, but it's me giving my body what it needs.

i couldn't _do_ that before transition. i was taught to _ignore_ my body and i worked really hard to ignore my body. whatever i needed to do so i wouldn't hear it screaming. i don't know if you saw _i saw the tv glow_ but it was important to me to see it. it's been five years and i _mostly_ don't regret what i did, but sometimes i forget why. and i saw that movie and it reminded me why, it reminded me how it _felt_. like you look at me these days, i'm a sad person, i have sad eyes, i'm in a lot of pain. but it's _nothing_ like the kind of pain owen has in the film. the pain i felt for all that time.

like to be clear. i'm not saying this to try and _convince_ or _persuade_ you of anything because i don't need to. you know what you _need_ to know. you're going to do what you _need_ to do. i don't know what that is, but you _do_.

i hadn't heard "(don't like) the way we live now" before. it was a good song! everything reminds me of a song, including other songs. it reminded me of "it's all right (the way that you live)" by the velvet underground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOZAXCdQ4ps

i didn't get what i wanted, what i hoped for out of them, but i got things i didn't expect, _good_ things i didn't expect. i got all the bad things i expected from transition and more. all of the good things i got... i didn't expect any of them. and it's not like they were _so_ good that i couldn't even imagine them. it's more that they were good, and i couldn't have imagined them happening.

that's the way all my life decisions go, I guess. the one good thing about and agonizing over little choices, doing oracle readings for whether I should buy a pint of milk or not (not literally but ykwim)- the message is much clearer now on the big, life changing decisions. Nothing is ever what I expect it to be anyway. The kind of transition that appeals to me is one with no end point. The destination is always a let down, and sometimes nothing much happens along the way either, but usually the process is the good part.

i was taught to _ignore_ my body and i worked really hard to ignore my body.

totally. I've often felt like a disembodied aura or something. and taken the attitude that my body "doesn't count".

you know what you _need_ to know. you're going to do what you _need_ to do. i don't know what that is, but you _do_.

that's the thing, I actually have no idea what to do with this.
maybe I will. but I'm still figuring out how to be with it, I'm not up to the part of knowing what to do.
writing that out, I see how this is 'still kicking the can' after I decided not to do that

The Flare song is okay, it's a little twee, I can relate to the general feeling of 'dating sucks now'
The Velvet Underground song is much better, of course.

that's the way all my life decisions go, I guess. the one good thing about and agonizing over little choices, doing oracle readings for whether I should buy a pint of milk or not (not literally but ykwim)- the message is much clearer now on the big, life changing decisions. Nothing is ever what I expect it to be anyway. The kind of transition that appeals to me is one with no end point. The destination is always a let down, and sometimes nothing much happens along the way either, but usually the process is the good part.

haha do you know the game "milk inside of a bag of milk inside of a bag of milk"? it's about the difficulty of doing these mundane-seeming things. they're not, they're often not as mundane as we make them out to be.

totally. I've often felt like a disembodied aura or something. and taken the attitude that my body "doesn't count".

oh yeah i used to be like that so much. and now it's like... it took a long time to get there, but my body feels like _my body_. having a body, even a body that's getting old and breaking down like mine is, it feels so amazing.

that's the thing, I actually have no idea what to do with this.
maybe I will. but I'm still figuring out how to be with it, I'm not up to the part of knowing what to do.
writing that out, I see how this is 'still kicking the can' after I decided not to do that

i don't want to get philosophical, but knowing you don't know is... for me, it was kind of necessary. it was just not being committed to any particular narrative, any particular way of being, just thinking, well, i can try this and see if it works. looking at it as this totalizing _thing_ is just overwhelming, it seems impossible. there's a good likelihood that the things one is doing might lead to particular outcomes, but it's not something one needs to _aim_ for. that's what a lot of people get wrong about so-called "detransition" - if one decides one isn't "trans", it's not a bad thing, i've never thought of it as a _bad_ thing. you try something, and you learn from it, and maybe you move on to something else. as long as someone doesn't say "well because it wasn't right for me _nobody_ should do it", i think it's a good thing.

even, like... you say it's "kicking the can" and... for me, i felt like there was a rush, there was pressure, but it was all coming from inside. i did kind of speedrun transition. two years and everything had changed, i was "done" with everything. for some people taking some time and letting it kind of sink in is what's necessary. most change is invisible, i've found. i've spent long periods of time in which i did "nothing" - i feel like that's what was necessary for me. it's still necessary for me. i spend a lot of time doing "nothing" because _being in and of itself_ is something... i feel like it's discouraged.

ahhhh that's me getting philosophical, it's 4 am, don't mind me, i get this way at 4 am.

anyway i liked the flare song. i thought it was good. :)

i was talking in the _i saw the tv glow_ thread about my friend who's having her orchi right now. (y'all should see that film if you haven't, btw. fantastic film. alfred i know you've seen it.)

and talking to her i... ok, here's what i mean, deflatormouse, when i say "you know what you need to do". you know the thing you're most afraid of doing in the _entire fucking world_? i don't mean dying. i mean the thing that scares you more than death itself. that's the thing you need to do. simple, right? simple.

-

there are so many things that are swirling in my head right now, this vortex of transness in my head. the new black dresses album, which i seem to have heard before lj, or at least lj hasn't talked about it. it's the first one i'm connecting with. i don't know if they've changed or if i've changed enough that they make sense to me now. there's so few trans stories from the perspective of where i am now. how i feel about it now. because it's not like i escaped a horror movie into some other kind of movie. i'm just in a different horror movie. i prefer this horror movie but it's still a horror movie. if schoenbrun makes that "different perspective" on _i saw the tv glow_ it would still be a horror movie i think, it wouldn't be a romantic comedy or whatever. it's not anybody's fault, our lives being a horror movie, but it is a horror movie, i want to be very clear about that. i feel like LAUGHINGFISH is clear about that. god, it's the joker again, isn't it? that famous marshall rogers/steve engelhart run on 'tec.

i also watched the new philosophy tube video where she talks to her past self. it's something a lot of us do, have these conversations. it's interesting because of how _angry_ Before Abigail is at Abigail. my conversations with Before Me don't go like that. Before Me isn't so much angry as confused. "how are you me? you look like a girl. you _sound_ like a girl." it used to be that past me would be confused at how hot i was. now they're more "wow, you're old". which is a shock, but less of a shock than future me being hot.

the thing about those conversations is that i never have any answers to the questions Before Me has. we live in different worlds. Before Me isn't _capable_ of understanding who I am. it's like talking to an older relative who's senile and doesn't recognize you, doesn't know who you are.

i think it's ok if they don't understand.

ok, here's what i mean, deflatormouse, when i say "you know what you need to do". you know the thing you're most afraid of doing in the _entire fucking world_? i don't mean dying. i mean the thing that scares you more than death itself. that's the thing you need to do. simple, right? simple.

huh well, ok, that sounds like the premise of a horror movie.
I think the things I fear most are actually very sensible things to be afraid of and really best avoided, but I think I know what you mean.

haha do you know the game "milk inside of a bag of milk inside of a bag of milk"? it's about the difficulty of doing these mundane-seeming things. they're not, they're often not as mundane as we make them out to be.

that's a very good point,

i did kind of speedrun transition. two years and everything had changed, i was "done" with everything. for some people taking some time and letting it kind of sink in is what's necessary. most change is invisible, i've found. i've spent long periods of time in which i did "nothing"

um, I think this is mostly going on internally, so far. my thing is I like to spend a lot of time alone- like it's seems okay for me to keep it to myself pretty much, because I mostly keep to myself. it hasn't really got past the stage of being "inner work". except that if someone refers to me as a man, I will correct them, politely but firmly.

ahhhh that's me getting philosophical, it's 4 am, don't mind me, i get this way at 4 am.

I believe it was bevis and butthead who said "if nothing sucks, how can everything be cool?"

huh well, ok, that sounds like the premise of a horror movie.

― Deflatormouse

lol ok it kind of was a horror movie, that _i saw the tv glow_ film i saw last weekend, it hit pretty hard. anyway it was one scene in particular from that movie that made me think of it in those terms. and there are, like, a lot of different ways of looking at it, that's just one framing. it's all about the particular lens one adopts. to me, i feel like that's why i'm inconsistent a lot of the time, i try to shift around and look at things from different angles. there are upsides and downsides to that approach.

um, I think this is mostly going on internally, so far. my thing is I like to spend a lot of time alone- like it's seems okay for me to keep it to myself pretty much, because I mostly keep to myself. it hasn't really got past the stage of being "inner work". except that if someone refers to me as a man, I will correct them, politely but firmly.

what i call "transition" is a good example of looking at things from different angles - from one angle i had an egg crack and "speedran" transition, but from another angle i spent four years questioning and doing all kinds of things, some of which didn't necessarily have anything to do with gender overtly. i grieved my dad, processed some of my abuse trauma, moved across the country, completely overhauled my philosophical and political view of the world, all of these things and more were things that went into me processing gender stuff. the philosophy tube video i watched yesterday about judith butler, thorn said gender isn't something that can be considered in isolation. there are so many different things that go into it.

doing the work i think was really good for me... i see some people go out and get all the surgeries and sometimes they don't get what they're hoping for. for me a lot of it is internal. it's really basic serenity prayer stuff, honestly - i change the things i can and accept the things i either can't change or don't need to change (because i am, really, pretty change-averse). the thing that drives me nuts is when "gender critical" people say "why can't you just accept yourself for who you are?" and _that's what i'm fucking doing_, that's what i've _been_ doing. literally just learning to love myself for who i am. it really grinds my gears when someone who clearly can't or won't accept me for who i am tries to say that _i'm_ not accepting _myself_. i just think that's a really rude thing to say.

when i hear what you're saying, to me it sounds like it _has_ got past the stage of inner work, because you're correcting people when they say you're a man. like, here's another angle, there _isn't really such a thing_ as "transition". my goal wasn't to become a "real woman", it was just to do stuff that worked for me. it just happens that what worked for me means that i look, act, and sound like a pretty ordinary middle-aged white woman, albeit one who's freaky in the sheets. that honestly _wasn't_ my goal and it bothered me for a while. i'm being true to myself by doing that, though. this is who i am. this is what works for me.

cuz again getting back to judith butler gender _is_ a social construct to some extent. that doesn't mean that i'm inauthentic, but to me like the two important things are to recognize myself for who i am _and_ to be recognized by others for who i am, and those two are interrelated. god, i was terrified to tell anybody outside of the internet about my gender stuff, and it is a risk. i've known people, the first time they tell someone they trust they turn out to be a transphobe and that's rough. my experience was a lot better. i started telling people and they didn't just accept me, they were like "whoa that's super awesome!" i'd never considered that being trans might be something people would think is "super awesome". i mean i think that now, it is super awesome, even though at the same time it's kind of normal, it's just me being an ordinary person. depends on which angle you're looking at it from.

like you don't have to be or do anything you're not comfortable with. it's just trying out things to see what works. and it sounds like that's what you're doing!

I believe it was bevis and butthead who said "if nothing sucks, how can everything be cool?"

― Deflatormouse

wasn't it tegan and sara who said "everything is awesome"?

i listened to the first half of the black dresses album, it's really great. the preview track struck me as surprisingly nostalgic (for idk that emo/bamboozle fest era) which is not something i usually get from this kind of 'internet hypergarbage' or whatever imago calls it.

i watched the florida project (2017) recently and all the trap songs in it sounded very nostalgic to me, which is kinda funny.

here's another angle, there _isn't really such a thing_ as "transition". my goal wasn't to become a "real woman", it was just to do stuff that worked for me.

this is how i think of it actually

albeit one who's freaky in the sheets

lol

but from another angle i spent four years questioning and doing all kinds of things, some of which didn't necessarily have anything to do with gender overtly.

yeah exactly, i think once you get to the egg cracking part there is stuff that's been going on "in the background" for a very long time which led to it.

i'd like to read more about how gender shouldn't be considered in isolation; i'll look for that YT video, or do you have a link?

lol ok it kind of was a horror movie, that _i saw the tv glow_ film i saw last weekend, it hit pretty hard.

ooh got it, it's a movie. for some reason i thought it was a series, now it makes sense.

oh philosophy tube has some great videos, the specific one i'm talking about is this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVilpxowsUQ

her videos are wall to wall great, tho

ok can i just step in to say how utterly adorable awkward girls are, awkward girls talking about their special interests make me melt every time

i'm seeing her again on monday

awesome ♥️

oh philosophy tube has some great videos, the specific one i'm talking about is this one:

thanks! i love her 😍

Watched the first half of that video with a professor friend (and a personal friend of Butler) and it was GREAT. The professor: “so far, she’s gotten everything exactly right!”

Had a nice moment this morning. A particular thing came up that requires some consultation (that is, I need to discuss it with a friend and/or a family member-- it's nothing weird or dark, just a professional opportunity that I need to evaluate), and after going through my mental rolodex and auditing all the possible people to speak to, which included (actually!) paying a consultant-friend for a proper review, I realised that my boyfriend would actually be the individual to provide the wisest and most astute assessment, and I had a full-body wash of dopamine affection for the guy and our relationship <3