What's the deal with Americans and nudity? [WORK-SAFE AGANE HURRAH]

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protocol in turkish baths in london seems to be have a towel or bathing trunks or nothing at all, whatever d00d

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

blake and wife came from radical antinomian backgrounds (muggletonians possibly)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Colin, every health club and gym built in the last 20 years has a sauna or a steamroom. Those aren't "saunas". But, I agree, if you're driving down the highway and see an ad for a sauna, it's totally a "sauna." The semiotics here is getting tortured.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Thou dost protest too much. Nude scenes in "non-erotic" films are generally meant to be erotic.

In America, yes.

What distinguishes when you see a friend naked and it's erotic and when you see a friend naked and it's not (assuming it's the same friend)?

I don't think seeing a friend is generally erotic, unless I happen to be attracted to that friend, which I rarely am.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, there's your problem! Your friends are all Finnish and hott! Go out and start appreciating them.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Sauna?
"Sauna"?
Sauna "Sauna"?
"Sauna" Sauna?
Finnish sauna?

I'm totally confused here. Skool me.

― Girolamo Savonarola, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

What is the point of a sauna, btw? It's just to make you sweat, right? Is it really that good for you?

― Sean (Sean), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Tuomas, nude scenes in french cinema are all about eroticism. Ditto Italian cinema.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe I've watched too many episodes of Law & Order SVU, I don't know. Tuomas is more enlightened than I am on the sex and nudity front. And I'm okay with that.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Girolamo. The difference between "sauna" and sauna is the presence of quotation marks. Well, that should just about do it.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

A sauna is where you go to sit in steam and sweat out toxins.

A "sauna" is where you go to look at other people naked and hopefully find at least one person willing to help you create an orgasm.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.gofinland.org/web/us/publish.nsf/(PublishedSheets2)/EE9502B0A793A97287256B6000590257?openDocument&sheetList=ArtofLiving

I hope that link turns out. I (being an weird American, I guess), find it kinda funny that they have a whole section in the official tourist website about ("?)saunas("?).

― Girolamo Savonarola, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Finnish sauna means just going there and sweating, usually with your family or your friends (public saunas are somewhat rare nowadays). Lot's of Finnish apartments and houses have their own saunas, as well as most of the summer cottages. In the US, "sauna" apparently has dirtier connotations; in Finland it has absolutely nothing to do with sex.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Sheesh, like half of my sexual fantasies are based around the idea of seeing my female friends naked. And I mean, then I guess it progresses from there, but sometimes that's enough!

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

'Many thousands of times, I have seen you naked, physically and psychically, without a mask, without a party card, without your 'popularity'. Naked like a new-born, naked like a field marshal in his underpants. You have complained and cried before me, have talked about your longings, and have disclosed your love and your grief. I know you and I understand you. I am going to tell you how you are, Little man, for I honestly believe in your great future. There is no doubt, it belongs to you. So, first of all, have a look at yourself. See yourself as you really are.

'You could have long since become the master of your existence, if only your thinking were in the direction of truth. You are cowardly in your thinking, Little Man, because real thinking is accompanied by bodily feelings, and you are afraid of your body.'

Wilhelm Reich, Listen Little Man

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

sauna has "dirty" (oh, no, more quotes!!!!!) connotations mainly when it's a stand-alone business. Then it's usually a front for prostitution, or a gay sex club. Gay sex clubs per se would be illegal in most municipalities, by the way. There isn't anything necessarily dirty about saunas attached to health clubs. Because then it's just sitting around naked and sweating like a bunch of randy-ass Finns!

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

In the US, if you're anything less than perfect, you should cover that shit up. Your parents should cover up because they're fat, old and gross, and no one should be forced to see fat, old, gross people naked.

I remember hiking in the desert, and people could always spot the German tourists, because you'd see less than perfect bodies squeezed into Speedos and walking around that way as if it were nothing. That would be unacceptable in the US.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm having trouble reconciling myself between wanting to be really nonchalant about casual nudity vs. wanting to see female friends naked because I would find it erotic.

― Girolamo Savonarola, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm just curious to know if any other American women would feel the slightest bit uncomfortable hanging out buck nekkid with a bunch of nekkid guys.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

haha reich wd totally have ripped that up and written something less silly if he'd
a. been to an english public school
b. watched or participated in a scene in a present-day gay sauna

naked != maskless or unable to form and manipulate power structures

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I did naked public bathing in an onsen in the hills outside Kyoto this summer and found it very civilised. The Japanese woman I was with asked if there was a mixed room where we could bathe together, but there wasn't. I'm quite happy with that remaining taboo, because I don't want to get too blase about nudity. Like Sunday, I'd like to keep it 'special'.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

and nudist colonies are a nightmare of bullying and manipulative moralism!!

(well i've never been but i have a friend who grew being taken on holiday to a big one in france every year w.her whole fambly till she wz 17) (sehe is v.sardonic INDEED abt the degree of "liberation from repression" attained within them)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

i like nudity. i like hanging out nude in the summer time with the windows open, then a nice cool breeze blows across the wedding tackle and all is right in the world.

― Chris V. (Chris V), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

because I don't want to get too blase about nudity

Why exactly?

― Girolamo Savonarola, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

America, Europe... BAH! You should all come to Canada. We're naked all the time and we're cool with it. Even in winter. Everything else you've been led to believe is a lie.

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

(don't forget the entirely-shaved front bottom scene in "Sex and the City")

― Mark C (Mark C), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Girolamo: Why don't I want to get blase about nudity? Well, I love green tea ice cream, but would I love it if I had it for breakfast, lunch and dinner?

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:58 (twenty-two years ago)

The greek islands I've been to seem to have much less nude bathing now than they used to a number of years ago. Seems to have gotten more conservative.

If you're willing to fork out $350+ a night to stay at the Ventana Inn in Big Sur, California, you can bathe nude in mixed japanese hot baths or at one of the pools, looking at the great Pacific and the mountains at the same time. http://www.ventanainn.com/leisure.htm

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I have seen naked breasts on ER recently.

But I'm sure that didn't happen without a lot of backing and forthing between the show's producers and the network's Standards and Practices department, bickering over whether or not to allow it. And it was probably a sweeps month ploy, used because so many Americans are antsy about nudity, for various reasons.

I rented a tape of Father Ted recently and was startled by a brief but matter-of-fact shot of bare breasts and words like "shite." I know that the BBC is a little looser on such things, compared to U.S. networks.

― j.lu (j.lu), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah as much as I'd like to be casual about it, if actually confronted with a mixed-gender finnish sauna, I don't know if I could handle it. It would probably be easier with strangers than friends!

― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Jeanne, having exposed "penis" = 100000000000x more vulnerable and scary for man than the equivalent nudity for a woman, at least from my experience; i think 9999999 times out of 10000000 she would be firmly in the driver's seat in the situation you describe

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:01 (twenty-two years ago)

(note: i have never actually been a woman)

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

teeny OTM. With strangers, no big deal. With friends......errrrhhh (of opp. sex).

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Compare: Stereotype of Finns as stoic and not given to displays of emotion & Stereotype of Finns as comfortable with casual nudity and not given to displays of hardons.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, tracer, I give. What's the difference between "penis" and penis?

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Uh, Tom of Finland to thread?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I believe that's Tom of "Finland"

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm just curious to know if any other American women would feel the slightest bit uncomfortable hanging out buck nekkid with a bunch of nekkid guys.

I'd be very uncomfortable because 1) I associate full-on nudity in the presence of others with sex or medical exams; and 2) I've bought into the concept that because my body isn't model-perfect it is therefore hideous.

(note: i have never actually been a woman)

Tiresias to thread!

― j.lu (j.lu), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:05 (twenty-two years ago)

No, I'm pretty sure Tom was actually from Finland.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:06 (twenty-two years ago)

He was indeed Finnish born and raised and etc.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah: http://www.tomoffinlandfoundation.org/foundation/touko.html

It's more like "Tom" of Finland, since his real name was Touko.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, those of you who haven't checked out http://www.tomoffinlandfoundation.org are missing out on a gem of a website.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I make everyone I know strip when I first meet them. That way no awkwardness later.

FAP, anyone?

― luna (luna.c), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:09 (twenty-two years ago)

is this what all finnish sauna's are like? [converted to link by poster's request]

― jed (jed_e_3), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:09 (twenty-two years ago)

"saunas" rather

― jed (jed_e_3), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

luna what if you meet in a bar??

by my above comment i mean that, fucked-up as the circumstance may be, female nudity holds a kind of power over men. and the reverse, male nudity, ALSO holds a kind of power over men, because it cuts their power-of-looking-at out from underneath them, like the Wizard of Oz behind his curtain - "oh, all that noise and smoke for THAT little shrively thing?" somehow i don't imagine the group of buck-nekkid guys being all porno-style randy and confident

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, I knew someone was going to post a pic to this thread sooner or later.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Apparently you're wrong, Tracer, judging by the pic above.
.
.
.
.
Actually, I think you're right.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll just get mine, shall I? (rummages)

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:13 (twenty-two years ago)

(Coat, I mean.)

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:14 (twenty-two years ago)

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