Katrina's POLITICAL aftermath (keep the political discussions HERE)

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WA Post editorial on why Bush is responsible: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/05/AR2005090501035.html

That's when I start my finger-pointing, because a few days in and around this ground zero have convinced me that there are two things the federal government failed to do, and that for these failures there's ultimately no one to blame but the president.

First, an administration that since Sept. 11, 2001, has told us a major terrorist strike is inevitable should have had in place a well-elaborated plan for evacuating a major American city. Even if there wasn't a specific plan for New Orleans -- although it was clear that a breach of the city's levees was one of the likeliest natural catastrophes -- there should have been a generic plan. George W. Bush told us time and again that our cities were threatened. Shouldn't he have ordered up a plan to get people out?

Second, someone should have thought about what to do with hundreds of thousands of evacuees, both in the days after a disaster and in the long term. As people flooded out of New Orleans, it was officials at the state and local level who rose to the challenge, making it up as they went along. Bring a bunch of people to the Astrodome. We have a vacant hotel that we can use. Send a hundred or so down to our church and we'll do the best we can.

lyra (lyra), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 02:46 (twenty years ago)

Meanwhile...

Hang around for the last graf of that one, it's a doozy.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 04:40 (twenty years ago)

wow.

hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 04:43 (twenty years ago)

Hurting, you do know that that graphic is from techcentralstation, right? you do know who was exposed as _funding_ techcentralstation last year, right?

in other news, Al Gore can be very funny when he wants to be. He still needs an editor, but still damn fine public speaking presence.

pics later.

kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 05:04 (twenty years ago)

No, I don't know.

Are you accusing them of miscounting hurricanes?

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 05:06 (twenty years ago)

Here's a better and more complete table from the Nat'l Weather Service:

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastdec.shtml

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 05:08 (twenty years ago)

I mean there's just no evidence that we're seeing an increase in hurricane frequency or intensity due to global warming. That doesn't mean we never will, but it hasn't happened yet.

When critics of the administration bring up the global warming issue in relation to Katrina, it only weakens their argument. Stick to the topic at hand.

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 05:11 (twenty years ago)

Hurting, how did Katrina go from a cat 1 storm over florida to a cat 5?

kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 05:17 (twenty years ago)

You're right! It was a mutant hurricane created by Bush administration policy! Nothing like this has ever happened before!

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 05:24 (twenty years ago)

I know what you mean, obv., that warmer water made the hurricane more intense. But it's a big leap of logic from there to say that the water being warm at that particular moment was a direct result of global warming, and that had human beings never released CO2 into the atmosphere, a hurricane like Katrina could never reach a high strength.

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 05:31 (twenty years ago)

in other news, i will say that like 5K-7K+ folks showed up at the Convention Center to hear Al Gore's Global Warming presentation. it was held in a ballroom that had a fire cap of 1,300.

Bit of bad planning, that.

so there was a few angry people turned away. Enough stuck around(incl. yrs truly) making noise that the organizers(the Oregon League of Conservation Voters) when and asked the former Vice President if he'd speak again, immediately afterwards. He agreed, so we got in line again for the 2 hour wait.

Photos here

kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 05:40 (twenty years ago)

Really though, the inclusion of global warming in the debate over Katrina is specious for a number of reasons.

1) It was inevitable that eventually New Orleans would get a category 4 hurricane. This is not a new mutant strain of hurricane, and they just happen to come around every so many years.

2) Much of the "disaster," at least in New Orleans, was not the direct result of the hurricane's strength (though it was indirectly) but of poor planning, weak levees, the geography and demography of New Orleans, and sheer incompetence on the part of the federal government.

3) Bush did not singlehandedly cause global warming, nor could he singlehandedly have any noticeable impact on it during his administration. Even if he had signed Kyoto the day he stepped into office, it would take a long long time before the impact would be felt, and it certainly wouldn't reverse global warming by itself.

So again, as much as I wish Bush would take greater heed of global warming, I think it's totally specious to make it one of the main issues here, when we're really talking about failures of leadership, disaster prevention, and crisis management.

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 05:40 (twenty years ago)

Gore never made it the direct cause of, he just said that weather is gunna get worse.

kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 05:52 (twenty years ago)

Right, but the weather is going to get worse over many decades, not instantly.

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 05:54 (twenty years ago)

at the risk of again sounding jerky, can we please stop talking about fucking al gore? his political career is long over, and while i don't disagree with his message per se, it's really irrelevant to what's going on in areas affected by katrina. i mean i am certainly supportive of the science of global warming, but we're getting into some specious shit here.

and really, at this point, al gore? if democrats can't find a better figure to rally behind, we deserve to lose.

hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 05:57 (twenty years ago)

the medium lobster (at fafblog) definitively destroys the "our hands were tied by local inaction" talkingpoint:

"...one must recognize that there are limits to what powers the federal government should exercise in a crisis. Yes, it is the right and duty of the president to override state drug policy, to determine who can or cannot marry, to indefinitely detain citizens without due process and to torture and kill prisoners as he sees fit, but disaster relief is a matter that should be left to the states. Yes, the images of the drowned, the diseased, and the desperately dying drove much of the country to outrage, but how much more outraged would America have been if FEMA had fed the Superdome refugees without the full oversight and authorization of the State of Louisiana? Had the president sent rescue helicopters to evacuate New Orleans the day the levees burst, he might have saved thousands of lives, but he would also have overstepped his authority - and if there's one thing George W. Bush refuses to countenance, it is abuse of power."

also see fafblog's Do-It-Yourself Emergency Management Guide!

queen's square hammer, Wednesday, 7 September 2005 06:10 (twenty years ago)

I liked the guy who said bush isn't to blame because he was ON VACATION

!!!

cozen (Cozen), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 06:54 (twenty years ago)

I was thinkng of sending my CV in, as Brown's going to get the boot. I've got a geography A-level, so I'm infinitely better qualified.

Matt (Matt), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 07:09 (twenty years ago)

I believe that was a joke, cozen.

Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 07:12 (twenty years ago)

it sure was funny!

cozen (Cozen), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 08:42 (twenty years ago)

Stence, why the hate-on for Al Gore? I keep hoping the guy's going to announce he'll run for President in '08!

J (Jay), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:00 (twenty years ago)

Because Al Gore sucks.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:22 (twenty years ago)

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/40305

Oh, very witty, Alfred. What incredible insight.

J (Jay), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:29 (twenty years ago)

OK the Daily Show last night was pretty funny, people. It never struck me just how ridiculous Bush's insistance on utilizing the sentence, "We're going to A B, because we're B A'ers!" all of the time until the dude was all, "We're going to EAT ZUCCHINI, because we are ZUCCHINI eaters!"

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:33 (twenty years ago)

Bush, Master of Tautology.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:34 (twenty years ago)

I have a hard time putting on hate for Al Gore because A) he's the most harmless human being ALIVE besides like maybe Richard Simmons B) he's been pretty quietly doing his own evacuation efforts down there. It took a couple days before the press caught on he was doing it, because he didn't feel it was appropriate to publicize and possibly politicize his efforts, which I think is a pretty alright way to be. Man will never win as president, I mean he's intelligent and eloquent but he is also pretty freaking unexciting and people, well they like their exciting dudes they can "relate" to.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:37 (twenty years ago)

Like Evan Bayh?

J (Jay), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:39 (twenty years ago)

Though I do agree with the fact that the global warming thing is pretty well unnecessary to bring up as a focal point in this discussion and that it's patently untrue that had there been no global warming scenarios ongoing, that a category 4 hurricane would not have occurred, since they have been occurring since pretty much the beginning of recorded history. It's a valid topic of discussion as something to worry about for the future and something to consider and try to fix but it really has very little to do with Hurricane Katrina--like I said, hardly the first cat 4 to come ashore in the world. Had this happened in, say, November, then yeah, that might be a little off the wall crazy but a big hurricane in the US south at the end of the summer? Say it ain't so, etc.

xpost no, like Harding

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:40 (twenty years ago)

Ah, well then . . .

J (Jay), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)

Let's be honest here, I mean I'm at the point where I'd take ANYONE as president because I mean even President Vince Vaughn seems like a better idea than our current situation.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:43 (twenty years ago)

this guy?

cozen (Cozen), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:47 (twenty years ago)

was he in the axis of evil?

RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:49 (twenty years ago)

It's pretty clear that the Founders intended the Chief Executive to be a colorless individual (with the exception, naturally, of the first four presidents, who were, ahem, Founders). There's reasons why historians only consider a handful of presidents to be great and consign the rest to Benjamin Harrison-style oblivion.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:49 (twenty years ago)

Intentions of the founding fathers are really not what people are going to the voting booth about these days, now are they?

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:52 (twenty years ago)

I mean let's be honest here, if people gave two shits about the Constitution we wouldn't have GWB in the Oval Office.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:53 (twenty years ago)

I dunno about that anti-music guy though, that's a little weird.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:57 (twenty years ago)

I vote to give this man emergency powers:

http://thousandrobots.com/blog/files/palpatine_02.jpg

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:57 (twenty years ago)

I think Congress already did that.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 13:13 (twenty years ago)

meanwhile, time for political cartoons from the Guardian:

here and here

kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 15:49 (twenty years ago)

A) he's the most harmless human being ALIVE besides like maybe Richard Simmons

Did you see this fuck on "Larry King Live"? Jimmy Kimmel ran excerpts of it last night. While footage of a man chest-deep in water ran, Simmons was saying that New Orleans could be "The Venice, Italy of the World!" A.) It's probably rather short-sighted to be calling New Orleans that right now as well as being a little tasteless and B.) as Kimmel already pointed out, isn't Venice, Italy already "The Venice, Italy of the World"?

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 16:24 (twenty years ago)

Hahahaha what the hell? No, it was just a random name I pulled out of my hat, I had no idea he was going around saying such asinine nonsense.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 16:53 (twenty years ago)

why is michael jackson in bush's rowboat?

when something smacks of something (dave225.3), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 16:57 (twenty years ago)

At a news conference, Pelosi, D-Calif., said Bush's choice for head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency had "absolutely no credentials."

She related that she had urged Bush at the White House on Tuesday to fire Michael Brown.

"He said 'Why would I do that?'" Pelosi said.

"'I said because of all that went wrong, of all that didn't go right last week.' And he said 'What didn't go right?'"

He inspires confidence, our president.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 17:07 (twenty years ago)

The Venice, Italy of the World!"
"The city of Italy is under water."

k/l (Ken L), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 17:18 (twenty years ago)

Simmons also said that the people of New Orleans appreciate all of the help so much, that when this is all over, Simmons would make sure that there would be a monument built in Larry King's name.

I shit you not. The clip could've been played out of context, but I saw what I saw.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 17:55 (twenty years ago)

Did he give Larry a tearful hug at the finish?

k/l (Ken L), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 17:56 (twenty years ago)

Ally, do you have a link about Gore's efforts? That's interesting.

Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 17:59 (twenty years ago)

wasn't richard simmons born in new orleans?!?

Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:23 (twenty years ago)

Cas, scan upwards to that dailykos link i posted.

also, dig this shit: FEMA is now fucking with people moving out to the different ememgency centers. Ed Schultz is on the air screaming about this. "These are not detainees, these are americans!"

kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:24 (twenty years ago)

I like to think he's playing "No Woman, No Cry".
http://guav.com/lj/09.05/BushSings.jpg

nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:46 (twenty years ago)


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