Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

"The repression of normal heterosexuality patriarchy is very important to left-coded spaces."

How tiresome. It's just so uninteresting to me, and as someone who despite deep soul-searching continues to be attracted to men, I kind of despair.

This quote is obviously a joke.

I think that just reveals more about how right-wingers think - there's no such thing as accomodation or empathy, everything is a zero sum game. if you acknowledge that some people don't like big jugs it's a blow to straight men everywhere. it's all a bit weird I think given how prudish these people are, I think they just want to go back to the time when you could openly ogle celebrities. I mean when I was growing up you had women like Pam Anderson and Cindy Crawford who were kind of shorthand for "really attractive women". like when you namechecked them everyone knew what you were talking about. who was the last celebrity who was primarily known for being really attractive?

most celebrities

I mean

like as their primary thing. all the really hot ones have like big movie roles and stuff. look I probably don't know what i'm talking about here just kinda thinking back to like the heyday of Britney Spears and how you couldn't even mention her name in mixed company because people would get real horny. I don't see that sort of thing too much anymore. I blame wokeness

sweeney is in loads of really big and good stuff!

frogs its not that deep yr poat and premise are just prob wrong man its ok

the discourse around her ending wokeness just by being hot is still deeply weird and confusing

And stupid.

i can only think that she is hot in a very """"obvious"""" way but like

christina hendricks wasnt that long along, alexandra dadarrio had a real moment with tru detective, kim broke the internet

obviously hot ppl never went away at all imo?

long /ago/

Hot people still walk among us but this premise is more like "women who could be objectified/sexualized to the exclusion of anything else about them" and also it requires you to accept as true that there was a past where everyone was totally fine with that and it didn't have any social or cultural consequences for the speaker. It was never okay, it was always wrong, and plenty of people already knew that and conducted their lives and friendships accordingly. Let's please not give into to the totally garbage premise at all or be confused by it.

Hi I just got back and I'm already regretting it.

nah I get there are loads of hot people still out there, maybe more than there has ever been in human history. do I do think the concept of celebrity as someone who's entire image revolves around wearing skimpy outfits and making sexy faces and groaning noises has gone out the window. I remember Britney's big hits obv but like every video and high profile appearance revolved around her doing something sexy. I mean I don't see Taylor Swift appearing with a giant snake looking like she wants to fuck it. Sidney Sweeney def ain't one of them. in retrospect this is still wrong because we have Nicki Minaj. Megan thee Stallion too. I wonder why right wingers find them so obscene.

look if you wanna understand where I'm coming from you need to watch all 22 minutes of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQlfGt6J14s

I mean, I didn't, but clicking around half of it is not understanding women and thinking they are dumb and brain damaged and then a bunch of stuff about fishing. in between segments there are boobs everywhere. this show was incredibly famous when I was growing up. my Dad let me watch it for some reason. now check out the comments, half of them are whining about Jimmy Kimmel going "woke" (which is hilarious, he's still pretty crass for a late night comedian, he just makes fun of Trump a lot), the other half are whining about how you can't make this kind of show anymore. well yeah you probably couldn't because it fucking sucks. this is the time they want to go back to.

also a sign of the changing times: Adam Corolla asks women in a mall if they would take a pill that made them smarter but also made their ass bigger. the women say no. oh how things have changed. in 2024 we call that a win/win.

"girls gone wild" and maxim magazine also existed

i am not sure what the point is.

Just as one can justify any moral position by selectively quoting the Bible, it seems to me a person could prove anything they want to about social attitudes of the recent past by selectively citing youtubes of past cable television programs.

wait. -- is this it? the other half are whining about how you can't make this kind of show anymore. well yeah you probably couldn't because it fucking sucks. this is the time they want to go back to.

keep whining whiners

in retrospect this is still wrong because we have Nicki Minaj. Megan thee Stallion too. I wonder why right wingers find them so obscene.

Partly because they are "ethnic"; partly because they are so conscious and in command of their sexuality. The right-wingers prefer "Aryan" women who appear to be unconscious of their beauty and sex appeal (think classic Britney or Hannah Montana-era Miley Cyrus).

in retrospect this is still wrong because we have Nicki Minaj. Megan thee Stallion too. I wonder why right wingers find them so obscene.

But back to big trucks… I have one of those mini-SUVs with raised wheels and unlike the stereotypical suburban/rural person in this thread … the value of the “lift” is better navigating the immense potholes of my neglected urban city. Seriously the potholes here are no joke

The right-wingers prefer "Aryan" women who appear to be unconscious of their beauty and sex appeal (think classic Britney or Hannah Montana-era Miley Cyrus).

actually I hadn't considered that, like you're right there isn't anything too overtly sexual in Britney's lyrics

I was thinking of the more obvious reason though

At this point you might be saying “Come on, CHH, it’s not like being a real human actress is illegal now. What about Jennifer Lawrence? Taylor Swift? Margot Robbie?” Of course, all of those women are beautiful and talented, but—and I can’t really explain this—it feels like they are here for the girls. Maybe that’s why I like them. Sydney feels like she’s here for the guys, and in a way that feels completely unironic. I don’t mean to say that “hot blondes have gone woke” or anything, but lately I have noticed that popular actresses are expected to couch their hotness and femininity in a blanket of irony

https://www.cartoonshateher.com/p/are-we-sunsetting-ass-and-entering

I think the above put into words something I felt but couldn't really articulate about why the 'Sydney Sweeny's boobs mean wokeness is over' takes have a grain of truth (though I don't really agree with all the examples of that 'irony' she gives - "posing in a magazine eating pizza out of a greasy box" seems like it would fit in fine with a The Man Show era sex-symbol). I agree with frogbs, SS's celebrity persona and vibes feel reminiscent of an earlier era where the media was less self-conscious or coy about ogling famous actresses, or when it was more taken for granted that the media was 'looking' from the pov of a hetero man, I think? Like those magazine profiles of actress from the pre-2010s where the author is just openly horny in a way that you don't see so much nowadays. (idk to what extent this is something intrinsic to how Sweeny presents herself or to what extent it's something that is just being projected onto her)

Where does this idea come from that it's impossible to be liberal with a hard-on

― Guayaquil (eephus!)

from that morrissey song, "liberal with a hard-on", fascists love morrissey because he's racist even though he doesn't like boobs as much as they do

I think that just reveals more about how right-wingers think - there's no such thing as accomodation or empathy

― frogbs

or lesbians

"empathy" used to be a member of my polycule, i say "used to", it's still in my polycule but it changed its name, it now goes by "great big honking bazongas", because it has great big honking bazongas and is very proud of them

this week it's working on redirecting all donations to donald trump's election campaign to a slush fund to unionize sex workers.

anyway, yeah, us liberals are so owned

the discourse around her ending wokeness just by being hot is still deeply weird and confusing

― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac)

like when i see a hot woman and start keysmashing and go all "no thoughts head empty" that's a situational thing, it's not permanent... i think the right doesn't get the concept of a "sometimes thing". or they're deeply opposed to it. god, remember how mad they got when cookie monster started eating vegetables? to me, i mean, the way the right talks about food says a lot about them. mostly because i like food.

this lady i know was talking about how her dad's gun club was mad about anime taking over good old fashioned cartoons, like 40s and 50s looney tunes, which i understand, because a lot of that stuff was completely racist. that said it does tend to overlook how hot bugs bunny was wearing a dress. again, that says a lot about patriarchy too. they know bugs bunny is hot wearing a dress. they've seen the cartoons. they stan the cartoons. they just think nobody is going to pay attention to the fact that they totally find bugs bunny wearing a dress extremely hot. like my man that's cool and all but then you turn around and complain about trans people and nobody takes you seriously. you know who we take seriously? bugs bunny. more seriously than you. you shoulda taken that left turn at albuquerque. if you'd watched that doctor who episode you'd know that by now.

where was i

oh! fuckin'... food wars. i mean they complain about the anime influence on cartoons but have they seen food wars? they have not. you know what's in food wars? great big honking bazongas. no lie. but they won't watch food wars. you know why? they think cooking is gay. which it is. GAY FOR BIG HONKING BAZONGAS.

dear defenders of traditional manhood, if you're so heterosexual, WHAT WERE YOU DOING LOOKING AT A PICTURE OF SOMEONE AT THE GLAAD AWARDS? that means you're gay now. so much for "traditional masculinity". i've just made a five hour long video about it. it's called "the DOWNFALL of traditional masculinity". it has one million views on youtube right now. i have a tv show. it's run two seasons on amazon prime already. it is very gay and it is chock full of bazongas. what have you done with your life? nothing, that's what. you're still watching "young sheldon" looking for boobies because you don't know the difference between "bazinga" and "bazongas". THAT'S WHAT YOU GET FOR DEFUNDING EDUCATION, YOU FEEBS.

I mean, I didn't, but clicking around half of it is not understanding women and thinking they are dumb and brain damaged and then a bunch of stuff about fishing.

― frogbs

what is with the fishing thing

i just

it's that hat, we all know that hat. "women want me, fish fear me". they treat women like fish and then they get salty when they can't catch us. well you're not gonna hook me like that, i'm fresh.

like i'll get with a man i'm afraid of, if it's the right kind of fear. not gonna lie. at the same time... like, you know wearing a hat saying that i want you doesn't make me actually want you, right? like, what, you think it's a magic cap? magic cap was discontinued. like. 20 years ago. (even if it wasn't, i would rather be a danger hiptop sidekick than a magic cap envoy.)

bet these motherfuckers can't actually fish for shit, neither. YOU HEAR THAT, MEN? All those pictures of fish you're holding in your dating profile pictures - those aren't real fish, are they? They're robots. Robot fish.

Fuck you motherfuckers. Fuck you and your fake-ass robot fish and your lesbian erasure and your insipid major-network sitcoms. I want a REAL MAN. Preferably one with a small penis.

sorry i'm apparently very silly today, there's something about the stupider manifestations of "traditional masculinity" that brings out my inner goofball troll

i used to write like this all the time 25 years ago. sad!

I like fishing.. not very good at it tho

It's a stupid talking point being talked about by idiots and it doesn't bare analysis is how I break this down tbh

Altho I misspelled "bear" so maybe they've got me, game over woke lads

I like sitting outside doing close to nothing.

Going back to Kate’s “all women and 3 men” thing … as an AFAB who is primarily attracted to men … my instinct is to say that’s par for the course… just because I am attracted to men, it doesn’t mean I am attracted to the vast majority of men.

And I forgot if I have already mentioned the title for the next bestselling book “Men are Stupid and Women are Crazy” … reflecting how hets talk about the other gender among members of their own gender

When we go down these right-wing rabbit holes, I imagine having a co-worker in the 90s who would stop by my cubicle daily and talk nonstop with outrage about what Rush Limbaugh said today on his three-hour show, and then the same thing the next day, and the next.

When we go down these right-wing rabbit holes, I imagine having a co-worker in the 90s who would stop by my cubicle daily and talk nonstop with outrage about what Rush Limbaugh said today on his three-hour show, and then the same thing the next day, and the next.

― paisley got boring (Eazy)

i mean i couldn't do it every day, but sometimes they do something so ridiculous that even _i_ have to take notice. "the woke left hates boobs" definitely falls into that category.

And I forgot if I have already mentioned the title for the next bestselling book “Men are Stupid and Women are Crazy” … reflecting how hets talk about the other gender among members of their own gender

― sarahell

god, spending the first 43 years of my life hearing what men say about women when they think none of us are around was...

well, it was _something_ alright

Mrs HD’s friend’s husband has gone down some kind of Tate/Peterson rabbit hole and has started treating her like total shit, saying she’s not feminine enough, she’s not a real wife, like dude, the woman you married is a horse-wrangling iron-fisted bitch (in the best way), what are you even thinking? I was never a huge fan of the guy but this seems so out of left field. I’m like “shoot him in the dick and get the hell out of dodge” but of course it’s also logistically complicated & she also thinks the man she married is still in there somewhere… what the fuck is wrong with men? Rhetorical question; we know the answer.

Mrs HD’s friend’s husband has gone down some kind of Tate/Peterson rabbit hole and has started treating her like total shit, saying she’s not feminine enough, she’s not a real wife, like dude, the woman you married is a horse-wrangling iron-fisted bitch (in the best way), what are you even thinking? I was never a huge fan of the guy but this seems so out of left field. I’m like “shoot him in the dick and get the hell out of dodge” but of course it’s also logistically complicated & she also thinks the man she married is still in there somewhere… what the fuck is wrong with men? Rhetorical question; we know the answer.

― It was on a accident (hardcore dilettante)

i mean honestly when talk about men it's less "men are stupid" and more "what the fuck is wrong with men?". i hear lots of women talking about things the same way. and i mean it's a rhetorical question, i know more than most, there's nothing _wrong_ with men it's just that being "socialized male" means being taught a bunch of stupid wrong bullshit and also _not_ being taught a bunch of pretty important things.

sometimes i hear other women say like "when a guy says something shitty and hateful, can't you just say, like, hey, that's not cool, don't say that?" that's something i can do as a woman, but i never felt like i could do it when i passed as a man. i don't think it was just that i wasn't actually a man. people "socialized male" are just taught to _not listen_. like it's not just that we're not taught to listen... i mean, i _was_ taught how to listen. but i was also taught that when someone said something i disagreed with, i should argue with them. that i should debate them, bro. i've worked hard to try and learn that, but it's still a struggle. particularly since women and AFABs are taught to, like, not talk? that's something i fight against a lot. it's important for me as a woman to speak.

-

idk. something that's been a real challenge for me... i have friends who wish they'd been born cis women, wish they'd been born "real" women, and i don't feel that way about myself. with me... part of me wishes i'd been born a cis man. it feels kind of weird to say that, knowing that there are a lot of folks out there who are _absolutely insistent_ that i'm totally a man and always will be. it's stupid for them to say that. they have no idea what they're talking about.

to be clear, i _love_ being a woman. i am happy and proud to be a woman. i enjoy being a girl, in both an ironic and unironic sense. when i thought i was a man, i fucking hated it. it was terrible. it just didn't _work_ for me. i tried really hard to make it work, for a long time, and i just couldn't. ever.

i just kind of wish i could have, sometimes. i mean partly because it's so much easier to be cis than trans. partly because whatever gender i am, i'm gonna be gay as fuck, which is the _really_ important thing to me. a lot of it is, though... now that i know i'm a man, it's so much easier for me to see all of the ways in which men are great. all of the things they can do, they can be, that i can't. that i never could, because i wasn't ever really a man.

and a lot of it is stuff that just gets called "normal", because men are unmarked and women are marked, and women get judged as inferior for not being able to do it. which is dumb. like.

by the way i don't mean this in an absolute sense, gender isn't, like. there's a range of things in gender and they overlap. there are a lot of cis women who are way better at a lot of dude stuff than i am, and it doesn't make them not women, or less women, or anything like that. that's what i appreciate about women, it seems like there are _so many_ different ways to be a woman, but people act like there's only one way to be a man. i tried so hard to find a way of being a man that worked for me, and there just wasn't one. that's nothing to do with manhood. it's because i'm not a man and never was. still, i mourn that.

-

as far as "women are crazy"... idk, mostly i hear women saying that about ourselves. i've had to work really hard to stop describing myself as "crazy". i got _problems_. i'm not _crazy_. we're really pressured to put ourselves and each other down a lot... and like men put down women, but they put us down in different ways than women put each other down. like the first question a man is supposed to ask when he sees a woman is "do i want to fuck her?", and how he treats her depends on the answer to that question. and guys don't treat other guys like that. i really do think that's what makes a lot of men uncomfortable with trans women, they're kind of taught to instinctively ask that question whenever they see someone. and to then find out that a woman has or had a penis... like the only reason they feel "tricked" is because they're thinking of women in sexual terms when it's irrelevant.

it's interesting because that's one of the things i feel fortunate to have been able to unlearn. like that was behavior i learned, and in my case it got mixed up with "do i want to be her", the whole subject/object dichotomy - embodiment versus possession. particularly since there's a dialectical option, a "both/and" option. anyway i'm a lesbian, i'm still really into women, but not in the _same way_ i used to be. it's more _contextual_. that's something that's really hit me as a woman, that anything and everything is sometimes. if i'm attracted to a woman, if i'm into a woman, it's... i mean it's kind of like the man crushes i had before, but with added bonus "sexual" (or whatever it is that stands in for "sexual" for me) attraction. it doesn't override any other considerations, it's not a first-and-foremost thing.

the men i like as well... it's very similar to the man crushes i had before with added "sexual" attraction as well. just looking at a guy and thinking "mmmmm he's delectable". sometimes i do feel creepy and male-gazey for that, even though experientially i know it's not the same thing. it gets back to, like... looking at a woman's boobs and finding them attractive is _fine_. i mean women _want_ to be looked at sometimes, _want_ to be appreciated. it just sucks when that's done to the exclusion of all of our other qualities as a human being.

-

just some kind of half-baked thoughts.

Mrs HD’s friend’s husband has gone down some kind of Tate/Peterson rabbit hole and has started treating her like total shit

This is really sad and I didn't actually realize married guys were susceptible to this, I thought it was just never-girlfriend guys and divorced guys

i mean women _want_ to be looked at sometimes, _want_ to be appreciated. it just sucks when that's done to the exclusion of all of our other qualities as a human being.

it feels like this has been kicking around in the revive, and lately i feel like my understanding of it has shifted. the whole "men are stupid" thing... i mean, they are, but i think the actual problem is when "men lack awareness" and are "unable to balance". they turn their essential stupidity into rules and roles and a public persona, they go all the way with it, lack any perspective or self-awareness or lightness about it, and then it makes them miserable and they never break out of it. it's ok to want to fuck someone but if you aren't connected to the other things you want, the other human things in addition to wanting to fuck, you're just an impoverished void who everyone with any sense clocks as a potential threat. one of the great things i'm finding out about kink is that it allows me to get into a lot of really primal and "wrong" stuff within a safe and trusting frame. i think men mostly don't know what to do with their primal and wrong stuff so they put it up front and create an environment of real danger and diminishment. there's that simone weil quote "Imaginary evil is romantic and varied; real evil is gloomy, monotonous, barren, boring. Imaginary good is boring; real good is always new, marvelous, intoxicating.”

xp my sense with guys who suddenly go down the right wing rabbit hole is that there is a certain need related to the "imaginary evil" of their manhood that they aren't getting and so they end up desperately going the way of "real evil" which is ironically a fake substitute for it.

xp My boyfriend (of 10 years) went through a spell of insisting that if I really listened to Jordan Peterson I would agree with his "points." I'm pretty sure he still thinks that but at least he stopped bringing it up.

Very unfortunately for me he also knows a rich eccentric VERY divorced man who is personal friends with Graham "Aliens built the pyramids" Hancock. Very, very divorced. So divorced. Living in an expensive house full of kooky unfinished projects and approx 0 feeling of home, complaining about his ex-wife and insisting that Graham Hancock has discovered really explosive proof that the scientific establishment doesn't want us to know about.

I think that was one of the longest days of my life.

barf

Sidney Sweeney is in a new--film? Series?--and the posters in LA seem intentionally not to emphasize her boobs.

xp i'm big into self-love and like ultimately i think correcting this falls into that category but coddled dudes who avoid struggling with anything internally are such a disease.

intellectualizing human relationships is an interesting exercise if you want to improve your generalizations about people, but if you want to connect with another human intellectualizing is a poor substitute for just paying attention to the person in front of you and responding to them. if that direct approach is not working out for you, then it's usually best to take a good look at yourself and what you're doing first, because no matter who you're with you're always half of what's happening.

^ nb: the "you" in that post is not directly about anyone else posting itt

the posters in LA seem intentionally not to emphasize her boobs.

CENSORED BY WOKENESS

Well, it is LA, after all.

Which, tbf, is RARELY reticent about showing boobs.

it feels like this has been kicking around in the revive, and lately i feel like my understanding of it has shifted. the whole "men are stupid" thing... i mean, they are, but i think the actual problem is when "men lack awareness" and are "unable to balance". they turn their essential stupidity into rules and roles and a public persona, they go all the way with it, lack any perspective or self-awareness or lightness about it, and then it makes them miserable and they never break out of it. it's ok to want to fuck someone but if you aren't connected to the other things you want, the other human things in addition to wanting to fuck, you're just an impoverished void who everyone with any sense clocks as a potential threat. one of the great things i'm finding out about kink is that it allows me to get into a lot of really primal and "wrong" stuff within a safe and trusting frame. i think men mostly don't know what to do with their primal and wrong stuff so they put it up front and create an environment of real danger and diminishment. there's that simone weil quote "Imaginary evil is romantic and varied; real evil is gloomy, monotonous, barren, boring. Imaginary good is boring; real good is always new, marvelous, intoxicating.”

xp my sense with guys who suddenly go down the right wing rabbit hole is that there is a certain need related to the "imaginary evil" of their manhood that they aren't getting and so they end up desperately going the way of "real evil" which is ironically a fake substitute for it.

― he/him hoo-hah (map)

god that simone weil quote just absolutely hits. and for me it's more than that. like imaginary suffering is a way for me to process and recontextualize the real suffering i've suffered, to resolve the complicated feelings i have about it. SA in particular... it takes something that should be amazing and makes it feel awful and sick. it's not the same as SA, but in a different way, that's how i felt about sex pre-transition... like it felt _good_ but something about it, something i couldn't understand or define, felt awful and _wrong_. i know what that was now, i don't feel that way now. it just feels good and _not_ bad.

it's the way all of this stuff gets mixed up in trauma, good and bad. right after my egg cracked and i met a chaser for the first time it was just so _weird_. i thought of myself as this ordinary middle-aged person and all of a sudden i was this guy's _fetish_? it was unthinkable that anybody would actually desire me at all in that way. (the way my ex-wife desired me is very different and is pretty much a her thing.)

i mean that's why the idea of "consensual non-consent", which wasn't around when i was younger, resonates with me so much. somebody does something i don't want to me and it feels _good_ and at some point it becomes the only thing i want, you know? and people judge and hate me for that. they judge people when they want to have things _done_ to them, and they judge people _more_ when they want to _do_ things. and the truth is that it's... it's the subject-object ambiguity again, isn't it? it's not knowing whether you want to be the perp or the victim. it's _contextual_. i've worked hard to not be ashamed of being who i am, of wanting who i want. it was a lot harder, i was a lot more ashamed, when i was carrying this "toxic masculinity" bullshit around with me. the white man's burden. fuck that. nobody wants you to carry that burden. you're not helping anybody by carring that burden. put it the fuck down and walk away.

i do think a lot of the "problem" with men is that a lot of men are ashamed of themselves for being men, they hate themselves, they think they're bad. and some jerkwad comes along and says the "woke left" is telling them that and, like. i can't even blame men for listening to andrew tate and not me, because men don't ever get to hear me, they only get to hear andrew tate. it's systemic, it's structural. men who have questions, those are the answers that are provided to them. i mean i know i keep getting back to this, but _that's_ why i hate capitalism, because it perpetuates the cycle of abuse for its own profit. it tells men they can be good IF. IF they're alpha males. IF they're chads. IF you can fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds' worth of distance run.

FUCK. THAT.

you don't have to _do_ anything to be a man. i mean i could do all those things the manosphere tells men they have to do, and i still wouldn't be a fucking man. it's not in me. i don't know why, but it's not.

you can be a man if you want to be. just like i'm a woman because i want to be. no other reason.

there are these people who talk about "men going their own way", but it's not defined by anything they _do_. just by what they _don't_ do. which is to seek out and work towards intimate relationships. i don't think there's a problem with that! to me, "going your own way" means not being defined by what other people say you have to do, say you have to be, say you have to _perform_, it's about recognizing yourself, and then wise-mindedly expressing who you are to others. you do that, and the people who are worth having in your life will _recognize_ that.

i spent so much of my life living in fear, guilt, shame for how people would judge me if they knew who i really was. and they would have! it wasn't _wrong_ for me choose what i did. it was wrong that i had to make that choice. it was wrong that i had to suffer so much because of that. the world changed, radical queer people fought, my transcestors fought, and the world changed, and i _was_ able to go my own way.

i say over and over and over again that what people call "transition" has just been learning to value myself over what other people want me to be. really, though, that's not just a trans thing. that's an everyone thing. i look at a lot of these incels, and the most obvious thing in the world is that they hate themselves. i don't even care that they hate me. i don't hate them. i just don't understand why they hate _themselves_. i hated myself for a long time. it was a shitty way to live. there are still a lot of people who want me to hate myself, who want me to kill myself, and it's been hard, it _is_ hard, to stop taking on their bullshit. but goddamn if it isn't worth doing.

there's this amazing song that inspires me a lot, this underground resistance song, and the title, of course, means a lot to me, but it's not a trans song. it's just a song that happens to express the soul of my gender transition really well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqdrtzCaSHw

i mean i know i'm speechifying here but i've been through a lot of bullshit and it's limited what i can do and it's also just opened up so much _possibility_ for me. i hate that i've had to change as much as i have and it's _liberating_, if someone talks about "men's liberation" i agree with that, as long as they don't act like _i'm_ the one keeping them from liberation. what was holding me back was, you know, the cop in my head. he don't belong there. he has no place there, no right to be there. no right to be in any of our heads.

xp My boyfriend (of 10 years) went through a spell of insisting that if I really listened to Jordan Peterson I would agree with his "points." I'm pretty sure he still thinks that but at least he stopped bringing it up.

― Ima Gardener (in orbit)

i mean it's still hard. having to make those compromises. someone's a good guy _and_, a good guy _but_. like, the reason i left indiana, it wasn't because i thought i was queer or thought i would be a victim or anything like that. my fear, my horror, was the idea that i would become _like_ them. in a lot of ways i feel like i'm lucky that to be who i am. i don't have to make those compromises, i don't have to make those choices. i'm not going to have a boyfriend who's going to tell me i should listen to jordan peterson. that's just not going to work, for obvious reasons. the hard thing is that sense of _betrayal_. i haven't gotten that from a man, but i've gotten that from my mom. she taught me all these values and she's out here living in ohio and the stuff she's saying now is horrible and wrong and brain-worm-y. she always had problems, but that's not what she taught me. she's out here listening to all of these people because she wants to be "well-informed" and wants to hear "both sides" and i see what happens. it's terrifying.

who i am now, one can call it "social contagion" if one wants, but the truth is that all of us are influenced by our environments. we're all prone to "go along to get along". what i can, could do is limited by my environment. i couldn't transition in 1996. i couldn't _visualize_ or _see_ myself as trans in 1996. and i look at a lot of guys, and people who are listening to jordan peterson are limiting themselves in the same way. they hear someone who's half-right and it's more than anyone else has given them and they take the half for the whole. i guess maybe quarter-right, in peterson's case. he takes some shit he took from robert bly, who was maybe about half-right, and he mixes it with some hot fucking garbage, and because it goes out on everybody's feeds, because it's the best men know about...

i mean, being half-right is fine as long as one doesn't believe one's _totally_ right. as long as one recognizes one's limitations. women know things that guys don't, because of our lived experience, and they're always telling _us_ to listen, and like. we're _marked_. we _have_ to know. have to know maybe even to a greater extent than they have to know. because we're the ones who suffer first and most. guys, i think guys think that saying that invalidates their suffering. it doesn't. i'm going to keep saying that. it's important. men do suffer, of course, suffer strongly and deeply. it's not like their suffering doesn't _count_ or doesn't _matter_. patriarchy just hurts us first, hurts us deeper, than it hurts them.

i should take a walk or something. i'm clearly ranty today.

xp that's a great post. i very much agree with the idea that 'what's wrong with men' is essentially a repressive kind of force. "the cop in my head" is a good quick and dirty access point to it i think. masculinity exists and is beautiful. i think things like misogyny and other shallow hierarchies that twist desire into a blunt-force weapon are repressive by nature, that they aren't actually "manly", that they're unfriendly to men. i think that capitalism supports misogyny to a degree because other forms of desire/repression allow it to divide and conquer. my personal opinion is that true masculinity is embodied and therefore at odds with stronger forms of capitalist production... which are maybe all there are, at least these days....

does that mean butches and trans men are the keepers of true masculinity - since their gender generally puts them at odds with the demands of capitalist (re)production as currently constituted even if they don't want it to?

also is your point that the repression is generative for capitalism because it allows for certain divisions of labour to be established or maintained, or because the thwarted desire is rerouted and subsumed into other projects? is there a "let a thousand genders bloom" version of capitalism struggling to be born, or would such a thing be inherently too destabilising to capitalist production in some way (as well as being a threat to less exclusively profit driven social/political forces and projects)?

I'm not expecting there to be clear answers to any of these questions necessarily because who the fuck knows