Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase 4 & Beyond (and a chance to change your vote)

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/madame-web-bomb-killed-sony-franchise-1235829471/

“We’re not going to see another Madame Web movie for another decade-plus,” quipped one industry veteran. “It failed. Sony tried to make a movie that was a different type of superhero movie.”

https://tenor.com/view/dumb-and-dumber-lloyd-theres-a-chance-jim-carrey-gif-11098164

All the Sony Spider-man spin-offs have been stinkers (if not flops), while all the Marvel Spider-man movies have been solid, so at a certain point it starts to seem like maybe Sony is the problem.

I had never heard of Madame Web before this movie. I'm not sure people are going to go see any old thing tangentially related to something they like.

<i>have they been flopping or underperforming because people are sick of superheroes, or mostly just because they are bad?</i>

The recent films, would say they're just bad (or charitably, hit or miss). There's a mix of "let me be the first to condemn it unseen" fanboy pile-on and actual viewing word of mouth contributing to performance. Ideally, everyone buys a ticket before critiquing it.

Just watched "The Marvels", and would give it a C+. While lots to criticize (songs, casting, scene transitions...), the chemistry among the three women is fun and mostly steady. The Kamala Khan actress was the best part for me, radiating the "it's a blast to be a superhero" vibe of early TV Flash.

Venom(s), Morbius, Madame Web (and Shazam 2 & Blue Beetle on the DC side) suffer from all sorts of issues like inauthentic humor, poor casting (ymmv), intrusive music, bad plots, etc.

Seems like every superhero movie now has to justify the genre's existence, so there's no latitude for a substandard film.

The Captain Marvel sequel was a flop too but three other MCU movies were in the domestic top 10 - I'd say it has less to do with cape burnout or a decline in quality than unfamiliar Marvel characters not selling.

I didn't read comic books as a kid but I knew of the X-Men and Spidey and various Avengers. Not a clue about Captain Marvel/Ant Man/Madame Web or individual X-Men names outside of Wolverine. Guardians of the Galaxy is an outlier there but that came at the perfect MCU hype moment and had an adorable raccoon star.

Sony's whole MO here is just so cynical. They're making movies of whatever Spider-Man related IP they can scrounge up regardless of whether anyone in the world gives a single fuck about it. Madame Web is like a quaternary character at best that AFAIK hasn't even really been used in forever. Literally just pissing money away. And yes, I did mean literally. I don't know how they got the money in there or how it's making its way out of there but it's what they're doing.

And yet they're also responsible for the Spider-Verse flicks. What the what.

milo don’t you (or didn’t you) have some stake in some comics/games store at some point or am I thinking of someone else?

I still work/99% run two stores.

Parallels to comic books - Marvel had a good thing going when they got the Star Wars rights and were selling one or two Star Wars titles. Then they started pumping out miniseries and titles focused on characters non-die hards didn't know/care about and it wound up hurting the numbers on the core titles because people get fed up with having to buy 10 $4.99 comics to keep up with the Star Wars comic universe vs. 1-2.

Madame Web sounds awful, but my preteen nieces really wanted to see it for some reason, and loved it… lol

There were only three MCU films last year - are you thinking of Across the Spider-Verse?

“It failed. Sony tried to make a movie that was a different type of superhero movie.”

This from all reports and all evidence is just demonstrably not true, but sure as shit is something a clueless self-exculpatory studio exec would say.

And also, the fun YMS review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOAZjbumc2E

I hope they don’t kill the Spider-Woman movie that’s reportedly in development (unless maybe it’s for the best…).

I don't know if it has ever been discerned that the fan boy base will not support a super hero movie if its deemed unfaithful to the source material, but i believe there is only one version of madame web to have appeared in marvel comics, and she is an elderly invalid precog, created in 1980, not, notably, a very comely 30something woman. If some sony functionary thought, "lets use this IP for the kind of character we want to make a movie about," well, the fanboy base does not like that. Maybe make the movie you want to make about the kind of character you want to involve, and use your own original IP instead of concepts created 40/50/60 years ago.

What I also don't understand is that Sony keeps making and marketing movies based on Spider man affiliated IP, but the Spiderman character only has appeared in MCU shit for nine years now. so do these Sony films, like this one or morbius or venom, make reference to Spider-man? and you never see him? they most certainly do not reference any MCU shit, right?

Young me as infatuated with the classic spider-woman. That was a badass costume.

“It failed. Sony tried to make a movie that was a different type of superhero movie.”

The Microsoft error message - YOU have made an error and the computer has now crashed.

All the Sony Spider-man spin-offs have been stinkers (if not flops)

I like the Venom movies, they are dumb and entertaining, and I think they did ok?

the venom movies are great. they should just be making more venom movies

They did very well - 7th biggest film each year. Probably a combination of a character introduced in the earlier Spider-Man films, Tom Hardy having a good old time, and body horror (Michelle Williams' wigs)

Yeah, sorry, I meant they (these Sony movies) were *not* all flops, but imo they were all stinkers, though I guess ymmv with "Venom" movies, because I don't think they are necessarily "good," though it can be argued that makes them better.

What I also don't understand is that Sony keeps making and marketing movies based on Spider man affiliated IP, but the Spiderman character only has appeared in MCU shit for nine years now. so do these Sony films, like this one or morbius or venom, make reference to Spider-man?

My understanding (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) is that "Sony's Spider-Man Universe" is a shared universe in which Peter Parker hasn't been introduced yet; although apparently Madame Web makes a clumsy effort to allude to Uncle Ben & baby Peter, which may be why it's set in the early 2000s. I guess you see this universe briefly in Across the Spider-Verse, when they universe-hop into the Venom convenience store or whatever.

I will probably watch all the MCU movies and tv shows until they stop making them, even if I recognize it’s been diminishing returns the last few years. The completist in me will… complete this universe.

But I have absolutely no interest in the Sony-verse, and I’ve also stopped watching all the DC movies since Justice League. Never looked back.

Don't sleep on "The Batman"! (it's not a "DCEU" movie, obv)

I think the original plan was that the "Sony Spider-Man Universe" would have Tom Holland's Spider-Man, and he'd be in both those movies and the MCU movies, and maybe if it went well, there would be some people appearing in one loaned to the other - and then negotiations broke down, and at one point there was going to be only two Spider-Man films and that was that, then apparently Tom Holland personally intervened! and things were smoothed out again, but without much of the original plan except Michael Keaton in Venom 2!

This would all have folded immediately if Venom hadn't been in a hit, is my impression - there's a third Venom film out this year (after Aaron Taylor-Johnson as Kraven the Hunter, which looks like the kind of disaster that some are describing Madame Web as) and I guess if that does well, then there juice in... Untitled Hypno-Hustler film? <groan>

Gail Simone was giving a boost to people tweeting about the theory that someone at Sony was idly searching for “villain team” ideas for their Spider properties and came up with her version of DC’s Sinister Six, which would explain the weird announcement that that Sony was making some minor luchador spider-character movie and why Kraven seems like he’s more into protecting wildlife than hunting it in the trailer for that property

The next dot to connect was Madame Web team -> their take on Birds of Prey, down to a woman in a wheelchair coordinating

honestly, all these things start to look like each other eventually so who even knows

i’ve also stopped watching all the DC movies since Justice League. Never looked back.

well they are all terrible with two exceptions; the second Suicide Squad (which presumably will be some kind of tonal launching pad for James Gunn's attempt to fix this 'universe') and I will stand up for the Flash because it is really stupid and doesn't pretend not to be.

Second "Suicide Squad" (and "Peacemaker") is tons of fun. Between that and "Guardians," I'm all for movies based on obscure (to me) characters/teams, but only as long as Gunn is doing it. But, like, a Gunn "Superman"? I don't even know what a good "Superman" movie needs, but I'm pretty sure the stuff Gunn brought to the aforementioned is not it.

A lot of the recent Marvel misfires, there's just nothing at stake, which more or less means the things hinge entirely on the FX, even more than usual. But the FX have not been particularly interesting, by and large. Think of the supposed visual splendors of "The Eternals," one of the most dull and drab of all the MCU (and the one that set the slump in motion), vs. the most recent "Guardians," which is popping with color and inventive visuals.

The first Suicide Squad movie (the one with Will Smith) was less bad than any Marvel movie I’ve seen post-first GOTG. Smith and Robbie’s charisma goes a long way.

Has there been a particularly good superhero movie that flopped yet?

Finn’s second one.

Jesus fuck, autocorrect

Gunn’s second one.

Super? That one had such a fucked-up theatrical release.

The second Suicide Squad lost about 20 million.

yeah I think the reputation of the first one tainted it unfairly. also it was a weird pandemic release from what i remember

If you count Dredd, that too.

Weird. The second Suicide Squad had a lot more heart (who’d have thought Starro could be sympathetic?) plus no Jared, less Jai, and no cringy Flag/Enchantress romance. 13 year difference maybe didn’t bother everyone, but Cara’s youth gave Flag groomer vibes. Maybe TDK, Weasel and Polka-Dot Man humor was too much for folk?

it came out three weeks after cinemas reopened and was streaming hours beforehand

Gunn's Suicide Squad was great, miles better than Ayer's one.

Also spawned Cena's Peacemaker show which was a blast.

Controp: Jai Courtney was actually good as Captain Boomerang, possibly for the first time ever.

Speaking of the MCU, I, too, have more or less enjoyed most of the movie/TV releases; I think I've seen all of them in the theaters except for "The Eternals" and "Iron Man 2" (which remain MCU low-points, imo). I've even enjoyed less liked installments like "Thor 2" and "Black Widow." However, I haven't seen all the TV shows yet. Skipped "Secret Invasion," haven't watched "What If?" and only last night realized I never got around to "Echo." She's another character I know nothing about, but the first ep was pretty solid, and felt a little different, which is good.

BTW, this last year has truly been a banner moment for on-screen Native American representation/casting, hasn't it? "Echo," "Reservation Dogs," "The Curse," "True Detective" and "Killers of the Flower Moon." (Maybe more I'm missing?) Admittedly, it's sometimes the same actors, but it's a good (belated) start. Hopefully it's not a one-and-done trend and the correction sticks.

I've been going through everything in order with the family. We're currently almost done with Ms. Marvel, which is fun and cute but probably my least favorite of the television series so far. It doesn't seem very grounded and the bad guys and their conflict isn't that engaging to me, but I like the tone of it.

Moon Knight > Loki > Wandavision >>> Falcon/Winter Soldier = Hawkeye > Ms. Marvel

The first half of Wandavision is probably my favorite of all, but by the end when it was color coded energy blargles it lost a lot of its charm.

As far as the movies, we just watched Thor: Love & Thunder. It was fun but leaned too far into goofiness. Thor 3 was one of my favorites and it was hard to see that perfect balance go sideways. We started going through these a year and a half ago and it's strange to think we've almost caught up with current releases.

She-Hulk
Werewolf
Wakanda Forever
Quantamania
Secret Invasion
Loki 2
The Marvels
Echo

I'm most looking forward to She-Hulk, least excited about Secret Invasion.

If my 9 year old has seen all of this stuff, is Echo too mature for her? I see that it's rated more mature and I'm not sure what that entails. We might skip that one, with her at least.

I really don't feel like watching secret invasion, will the Marvels make any sense if I skip it?

I would be wary of letting a 9yo watch Echo. It’s not as brutal as the Netflix Marvel shows but it trends that way. Probably best to watch them first by yourself and judge from there.

Yeah, first ep has plenty of blood/murder.

Don't know if watching "Secret Invasion" would make "The Marvels" make more sense, but there's not way it would make it better, heh. However, probably helps to see "Ms. Marvel" before "The Marvels." Maybe "WandaVision."

My tally of these:

She-Hulk

Werewolf

Wakanda Forever

Quantamania

Secret Invasion

Loki 2

The Marvels

Echo

I’ve diligently watched everything but let the wife and kids skip the stinkers. Is Secret Invasion as bad as Iron Man 2, Thor 2, and the Eternals?

Yes

Bits of it are fine but it’s mostly a pile of nonsense

Secret Invasion will arguably cause The Marvels to make less sense - as a comic book reader, I'm pretty inured to "oh this probably happened between issues of this other thing that contradicts it".

I wouldn't say nothing happens in Secret Invasion - it kills a couple of characters from the films, but mostly it's the closest thing to a Nick Fury TV show that you'll get, so if you want to see him scowl and bark (and have a few good character moments) it's good for that.

I liked The Marvels plenty - it's in the odd position that it's both the shortest film and has two obvious "tacked on for the memes" sequences - but the core plot and relationship between the three leads (and Fury) are all well done.

Also I dug that SI was operating in a genre (paranoid political thriller) that the MCU doesn't really do - the closest would be The Winter Soldier, if you squint?

Any five minutes of it is better than any five minutes of Malekith, or Tony Stark's Daddy Issues.