ATTN: Copyeditors and Grammar Fiends

Nasty, brutish and short (who I used to teach English with about five years ago, actually, and who I have argued with about this before) is correct.

Actually, he's right; his responses, however, may be correct. Indeed, he may also be correct as a human being, but in this context that's neither here nor there.

Every time I read this thread I become more descriptivist. Except on apostrophes, use of.

As long as you two admit that you're basically rewriting the rules.

No, this is in grammar books and stuff. Honest!

I suppose it depends on whether you take a prescriptive or descriptive view of grammar (rules to follow or patterns to observe). I did some research on this in a previous job using the Cambridge International Corpus (a collection of billions of bits of language, written and spoken, with some nifty statistical tools), and it just isn't used in object position that much any more, especially in informal contexts.

When does usage become so established that we change the rules, is the question, I suppose.

stet otm, except I'm fussy about some things, and obviously im my job I have to be fussy about everything.

So with my "as such" thing above, I think I'm in the conservative camp. Anyone have a view on that one?

As long as you two admit that you're basically rewriting the rules. I mean, fuck capital letters: the period breaks up sentences just fine, and I don't want to look like some old-fashioned twit by using them.

I don't think this is an especially recent development (I've never really known anyone who uses 'whom' in conversation) and I'm certainly not claiming personal responsibility for "rewriting the rules". Anyway language is evolving all the time: the grammar is changing, the vocabulary is changing, the pronunciation is changing. All the 'rules' can do is provide a snapshot of what patterns seem to exist at a given moment in time: as the language moves on the rules how to change. Maybe in the past the use of 'whom' was much wider and the use of 'who' was much narrower. That's not really relevant now: there's no point applying a rule that no longer describes the language that people actually use.

I get pissed off at being forced to change almost every "like" to "such as" at work, but that's a separate issue.

x-post

Grrr. 'how' = 'have' (xpost to self)

But 'like' is wrong, heh. At least you can mix it up with 'such X as'
xpst

I think it makes you sound like an arse, which is not a register I want to use, code-switching or no.

You're right that few people use "whom" in spoken English, and that using it might seem rather poncey, but I don't think it carries this reputation in written English at all. And especially since the company I work for ("for whom I work") produces reference materials, I'm not likely to stop using it any time soon.

I like saying whom! It's a nice soft sound, and anything that softens guttural weegian is a good thing.

I use it at work too. But I wouldn't in my own writing. I'd make the poor sub/copyeditor change it.

Stet - "I fancy women such as Carey Mulligan out of Dr Who" just sounds stupid and stilted to me, even if I do fancy Carey Mulligan herself, not just other women who are similar to her. Like has a different scope in this context that shouldn't be bound by its meaning elsewhere. I (along with almost every writer who ever files copy) THINK.

Ridiculously strict house styles: classic or dud?

I have to change every "while" that isn't a temporal one to a "whereas" or an "although".

Jamie, I'm with you on the as-such thing, although it's something that had only annoyed me non-specifically before, and now I'm sure I'll notice it all the time...

But if you just fancy Carey Mulligan, you don't need either such as or like, surely? If you fancy women like her, then like is the right word anyway.

NO SHIT people don't use "whom" in informal conversation, but if you're teaching people grammar then you might at least let them know the formal rules, because, you know, they can probably pick up on informalities on their own.

No, I fancy both Carey Mulligan and women who resemble her.

Maybe he fancies Carey Mulligan AND woman who resemble her. (xpost)

though I guess if you're doing ESL teaching it might be simpler to just cut to what doesn't sound awkward in conversation

Ah. That was redundant. (xpost)

though I guess if you're doing ESL teaching it might be simpler to just cut to what doesn't sound awkward in conversation

Obviously. If someone is trying to learn a language you equip them to deal with the language they will actually encounter in the real world, rather than what someone feels they ought to encounter.

then you fancy such women as carey mulligan. but any minute now the dude who wrote that style is going to come crashing through the doors shouting about Tescos, so I'm going to leave this one

yeah I had to reread the thread before I realized you were teaching English as second language

xpost

When you're teaching English (as an SL) you find a lot of students use whom ALL the time, cos they've learnt from books or non-native teachers or whatever, so yes, the challenge is to make them sound a little more natural, but be aware of it as a marker of formality.

But there is the point about when exactly we give it up.

"You" also has an object form (thee) and a subject form (thou), which obvioulsy fell out of use. When does the disjunct between used language and the rules get big enough to change the rules?

I reckon pretty soon with "whom", in that, as Jamie and I have been saying, it's already taught as an optional form in ESL textbooks.

obvioulsy !

Personally I choose to never use the word 'whom' because I don't want to sound like an ageing, posh Oxbridge Don.

But there is the point about when exactly we give it up.

"You" also has an object form (thee) and a subject form (thou), which obvioulsy fell out of use. When does the disjunct between used language and the rules get big enough to change the rules?

I reckon pretty soon with "whom", in that, as Jamie and I have been saying, it's already taught as an optional form in ESL textbooks.

Anyone reading that who doesn't know that my name is also Jamie will think you are talking to yourself.

There are various aspects of the language which are in the process of changing. The question is to what extent the change has been adopted: what proportion of the population use the new form rather than the old form (or if people use both forms, how often do they prefer the new to the old)? 'Posh'/'educated' English tends to be more formal and conservative, as does written English, so sometimes forms can linger for decades there (such as our old friend 'whom') that have virtually disappeared from everyday speech.

The grammar books used for teaching English are obviously going to side more with descriptivists because communication is the goal. House style guides are obviously going to be far more prescriptivist (but even they would have to update their rules eventually). The grammar books for teaching English usually give both alternatives (the old and the new). Where the change has been largely adopted then there is usually a note saying that old form is considered very formal and uncommon. Where the change is less complete then there is usually a note saying that the new form is considered informal and not used in 'careful speech'.

I quite like the idea of international readers thinking we're idiots. It facilitates the mounting of a surprise attack.

"You" also has an object form (thee) and a subject form (thou), which obvioulsy fell out of use.

"thee" and "thou" were informal singular second-person, analogous to tu/ti in Spanish, du in German, etc. "Ye" was the object form of "you."

And yeah I don't consider people who say "whom" to be overbearingly posh like the Britishers apparently do.

oh wait this is the thread where you can't use "like" in place of "as"

British writers (for Americans have a less feisty attitude toward these rules) should be aware that any international readers they may have do not interpret their supposedly naturalistic style as favorably as their countrymen do.

It's not necessarily the case that British writers (or editors) are more carefree about breaking/changing rules than Americans, it might just be that this whole 'who'/'whom' thing is another difference between British English and American English.

xpost

Hmm, that's not what wikipedia says (as I checked), but the point stands in any case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_%28pronoun%29

I also think I just used a word (disjunct) that not only sounds pompous, but also doesn't exist!

foiled again by wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou

Originally, thou was simply the singular counterpart to the plural pronoun ye, derived from an ancient Indo-European root. In imitation of continental practice, thou was later used to express intimacy, familiarity, or even disrespect while another pronoun, you, the oblique/objective form of ye, was used for formal circumstances (see T-V distinction).

I still got ye/you mixed up though ;_;

Surely there's another thread for arguing about middle-english pronoun forms?

I have to go. It's been fun. Death to all prescriptivists! Sub-editors for a living language unite etc.

Language moves on, but I don't think we've got to the point where use of who/whom is totally optional. I'd say spoken English it's "who" these days, but for written English there are plenty of cases where "who" simply sounds wrong. You wouldn't want to write a legal document using "who" instead of "whom", would you?

As for that/which, I have a feeling there's a UK/US divide here - in the UK you can use either for a defining clause, but in the US you have to use "that".

But legal English is full of all kinds of archaic terms that are never used anywhere else

nb I'm no prescriptivist

Does a descriptivist sub-editor even have to show up for work?

Nice.

Descriptivism and prescriptivism are on a ... continuum. When I am feeling more descriptivist than usual, I get to go home early.

I infer from the above that I must be a hardcore descriptivist

When I'm at my most descriptivist the other sub editors feed me biscuits until it goes away

I mean geez, what's we're talking about here has nothing to do with prescriptivism or descriptivism -- it just has to do with how rigorous or indulgent your editing is, and how formal or conversational the tone of your publication is. Editing is, by definition, an act of prescription. Changing stuff to sound like common speech because "whom" sounds "too poncey" is every bit as prescriptive as the other way around, except at least the other way around you can't be a huge hypocrite and act like you're striking some grand blow against language snobs.

Re the well/good situation, I found this on the internets.

It says stuff like:

'Realize that when you respond "I'm good" to the question "How are you?" you are telling the person that you are beneficial, kind, favorable or perhaps virtuous (depending on how the listener interprets your answer).'

But, yuh, I'm not necessarily agreeing with it....

...but it does back up my drunken argument.

Changing stuff to sound like common speech because "whom" sounds "too poncey" is every bit as prescriptive as the other way around, except at least the other way around you can't be a huge hypocrite and act like you're striking some grand blow against language snobs.

Nobody was saying you should do that, anyway. I said that you could use 'who' or 'that' as relative pronouns in certain cases (see waaaaaay upthread now) and somebody claimed that 'who' was wrong and needed to be changed to 'whom' because that was TEH RULE. The whole debate was about the fact that this 'rule' is wrong, and both 'who' and 'whom' are acceptable, but that you would only expect to encounter the latter in formal, written language. Nobody was suggesting that you should change formal documents to sound like common speech, we were fighting against the idea that you should change common speech to sound like formal documents because some house style guide says it's the rule.