God Has Abandoned Us: U.S. Politics November 2023

More interesting than lecturing people here would be whether there's any data to support the idea that lecturing non-voters is effective anywhere or at any time.

T/S: lecturing non-voters vs being lectured by non-voters

rob, wrong: I have not told tabes to do shit

I explained what I will do.

the discussion started in reaction to an article that suggested it was immoral to vote for Biden because of his position and actions on Israel/Palestine, fwiw

Isn't this is a little strange to say in the context of today's posts? table has just been informed repeatedly that he should vote for Biden despite being vehemently opposed to Biden's stance on something that matters to table. it's the very fact that votes for Biden are counted as endorsement of his policies that is the problem

― rob, Thursday, November 16, 2023 2:47 PM bookmarkflaglink

Rob, you better paste quote the posts you are talking about.

JCLC's posts are right there

right where? I don't think people appreciate being misquoted or misunderstood.

xxpost i don't think anybody itt is happy with things as they are and/or unwilling to work to change them. however, we also know the election is in less than a year, and the opponent running lead a pretty scary insurrection attempt only 2 years ago.

my feelings on the matter might be a lot different if 2017-2021 didn't happen, Roe v Wade was still standing, SCOTUS still functional, and Biden's opponent someone like Mitt Romney, who woulda fucked a lot of shit up but wouldn't be like throwing outright gasoline on a fire.

I'm hardly going to police anybody's vote anymore...but just sayin.

xp got more whenever somebody needs to be, lol, "lectured"

haha ty

xp
you're right and that's fair, Alfred. I was being too broad-brush, but in my defense other posters were p prescriptive imo. in the spirit of your posts though, I will concede that while it is possible that over the next year I may threaten to not vote out of disgust for Biden/Dems, I will almost certainly do so because I fucking hate republicans. ultimately though, count me on team "pres votes don't matter, mathematically" (eternally registered in Oregon unless I repatriate)

felicity, I can do that I guess, but as sleeve said I think JCLC's posts were pretty clear. that said, it is also possible that I am unfairly drawing on past convos here, since this discussion has happened many times before

feel like there also needs to be a distinction made between ppl who don't vote at all because "the system is broken" or they don't care or w/e, those ppl are disgusting savages (and I don't think any of us here do that?). like, I'm sure table votes in local elections, so I care a lot less about debating his presidential vote and its effectiveness.

felicity, I can do that I guess, but as sleeve said I think JCLC's posts were pretty clear. that said, it is also possible that I am unfairly drawing on past convos here, since this discussion has happened many times before

― rob, Thursday, November 16, 2023 3:21 PM bookmarkflaglink

That's good. As it seemed your objections were to "today's posts" and not previous conversations, I was wondering.

xp

pointing out that your choices are "bad" and "worse" and that you should of course vote for bad, it's honestly a no-brainer, isn't privilege at all, it's math.

― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, November 16, 2023 1:04 PM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

But people in competitive states I hope would really think through the practical consequences of their votes, rather than just their symbolism.

― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Thursday, November 16, 2023 1:55 PM (four hours ago)

These were the main posts I had in mind, but I admit on review there was less lecturing directed at table than I thought. I apologize for exaggerating.

And my only point was that the arguments for voting for Dem presidents had gone from utilitarian pragmatism and harm reduction (e.g., JCLC's post) to an embrace of the symbolic messaging power of voting (the YMP post I responded to), and the latter struck me as quite close to table's position in the first place.

i absolutely vote in local elections and merely refrain from voting for candidates when they hold views i find abhorrent. case in point: Cherelle Parker, the first Black female mayor of Philadelphia, also supports stop and frisk, calling in the National Guard to Kensington, and the building of a monstrous basketball stadium that will destroy a historic and thriving Chinatown. i didn’t vote for her, and i didn’t vote for her opponent— just left the spot blank.

(my other choices all won in that local election, fwiw)

xp
I meant to note that table lives in a "competitive state," so maybe tipsy didn't mean that to be directed at table, but it could be read that way.

I think my conclusion here is that all of these arguments are at base personal rationalizations, because the presidential voting system is corrupted in numerous ways.

I didn't vote for Obama in 2008. I used to lecture jaymc and clemenza (who's Canadian!).

i didn’t vote for her, and i didn’t vote for her opponent— just left the spot blank.

Which is the exact same thing as an affirmative vote for the person you really don't want to win, is what people are saying. If you don't accept that logic, well, OK then.

I would say it's deontological morality v. utilitarian morality, so I understand the argument.

Not my way of thinking of elections, but I also understand that point of view.

xp- I understand what people are saying, and I also have to sleep with myself for the rest of my life, not with any of you.

felicity, that is exactly it.

I also have to sleep with myself for the rest of my life, not with any of you.

New borad description

I'm very much a 'hold my nose' voter but I'm also a partisan Democrat in a tribal sense, so it's not as difficult for me to 'get on board' with people I'm not enthused about... we don't have straight ticket voting in California, but I would probably do it unless Jerry Brown warned me not too

Talk to the man in the mirror

he's asking you to change your cosplay

lol

This is good... for now? Any DeSantis defeat is cool in my book

The Supreme Court refused Florida’s emergency request to partially reinstate its law targeting drag shows Thursday, preventing the state from enforcing the legislation, for now.

A federal judge previously struck down the law, finding it unconstitutional. As it appeals, the Republican-led state in the meantime sought to keep enforcing the legislation except against the restaurant that brought the lawsuit.

Three of the court’s conservatives — Justices Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito and Neil Gorsuch — publicly dissented and voted to revive the law.

Two other conservatives — Justices Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett — voted with the majority to rule against Florida, but the duo indicated their votes don’t signify whether they believe the law is constitutional.

lol Gorsuch that marvelous libertarian

always nice when AShley Moody takes one too

I didn't vote for Obama in 2008. I used to lecture jaymc and clemenza (who's Canadian!).

wait what did you lecture me about?

Many xps but no, Rob, I am not trying to lecture or police Tabes and yes, Rob, I do kinda wish we had a more complete picture of who is out there and what they want, as a guide to the future viability of better things. Whom to run in the future, what stances those candidates should take, etc. It might be interesting and/or helpful information.

Let me also be clear about the extent to which my stance is prescriptive and/or moralizing. When people sit out an election because they feel their vote is meaningless - in whichever direction - that is a lost opportunity for information. It's not necessarily a moral crime or whatever.

If someone feels that not-voting is the BEST statement of their sentiments, because they hate both "choices," that is itself a choice. And I understand that choice.

What I am trying (badly) to address is the sentiment that it's not worthwhile to vote blue in a safely red state, red in a safely blue state, blue in a safely blue state, or red in a safely red state.

States get "safely" one color by virtue of the actions of individual voters. That critical mass that you sense is actually not some gravitational power of nature. It's the cumulative power of millions of individual decisions. Decisions that are precisely as consequential as yours and mine.

If everyone said "meh, my one vote doesn't matter" and stayed home, every election would end in a tie of zero to zero.

American politics is so tribal I don't think we need those non-voters' votes to figure out what will turn states: send more of them to college and have them live in cities and not attend church weekly. Or the opposite.

You can be in charge of that.

Weird reply, man!

If everyone said "meh, my one vote doesn't matter" and stayed home, every election would end in a tie of zero to zero.

― Oh I believe in Yetis' Day (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, November 16, 2023 8:37 PM bookmarkflaglink

OVERTIME

wait what did you lecture me about?

― jaymc,

I was one of those "lol Obama is as bad as Romney" guys.

The Nobel committee obviously classed Obama right up there with Kissinger.

YMP, i actually agree with a lot of what you write, which is why i continue to vote in down-ballot and local elections.

in the 2008 primaries, i supported john edwards

;_;

at the time he had the most progressive climate plan

soon afterward, i was bitten by many insects and entered a fugue state

How many electoral votes does a fugue state get?

all of them, eventually

Milo's point re tribalism is well taken.

Accordingly, in lieu of political polling, maybe we should just count up the TruckNutz sold vs. lattes sold, and go from there. Toby Keith albums sold vs. Harry Styles albums sold. Whole Foods locations vs. Bass Pro Shop locations. MyPillow vs. Virginia Woolf novels.

If we're going to embrace tribalism above everything else let's just frickin go ahead and go there. Skynyrd vs. Beyonce FITE

The Focus Group podcast with Sarah Longwell is pretty interesting on this stuff.

Is she on Team Beyonce or Team Skynyrd?

Not sure. I guess the whole brand is Team Nevertrump or RINO.

It's just interesting to me to hear why people flip or are considering voting which way. It's not always what I would think.

A zillion xps but fwiw I wasn't talking at or about tables or anyone in particular. It's just how things are at a certain level imo. Stakes are different different places. But for me, voting is not some sacred act, it's just the little nudge you choose to give or not give. I usually lean toward nudging.

Do we need to embrace tribalism or is it just a reality? Moving beyond the constraints of education (and attendant socioeconomic status), location and religion would require an unimaginable shift in American politics. Is there a political message that doesn't betray core Democratic principles (such as abortion access) that would let them win more than 25% of rural white evangelicals? I'd like to think a social democratic or socialist message of making life better for everyone would work but that would require rebuilding white evangelicals' worldview from the ground up and I'm sure we'd all be dead before it really started to take root.

I don’t think that elections are decided collectively by virtue of the actions of individual voters!

Candidates running for office aren’t spontaneously generated by the parties or the populace right before campaign season. Generally, someone who is running for an office has to have the backing of an organization, a wealthy interest, or bring their own cultural or financial capital to the table. (the metaphorical one, not the poster obv)

voters may not always notice or care about who has endorsed a candidate, but those endorsements, be they individual or collective, vocal or financial, are going to give you the roots and foundation of how an elected official is going to carry out their job

long story short, I think someone even being on the ticket is the culmination of a long series of choices made by many people upstream of elections and participation in organizing is as important if not more so than individual votes in an election