God Has Abandoned Us: U.S. Politics November 2023

So used are they to FOX/OAN talking points that they're thunderstruck when they see positive defenses of liberalism.

well yeah it's the same thing as "wokeness" like they spend so much time trying to figure out what things have gone woke and basically no time trying to figure out why that's a bad thing. they just assume everyone thinks the same as them. but if you actually ask point blank "why is it bad to have a black Little Mermaid" they just stammer and talk about "history"

it seems pretty obvious to me that there are epiphenomena associated with voting in a non-swing state that still makes it essential to do it

Just to while away the time...multi-xps:

Consider for a second the moral assumptions inherent to a political philosophy that insists on voting for genocidaires rather than making genocidaires accountable to their victims.

This bit of rhetorical binary thinking appears to treat the two named alternatives as somehow equivalent in scope and moral suasion. Nothing could be further from the truth. If Salaita is implying that simply not voting for the genocidaire serves as a morally effective means of "making them accountable", that is an absurdity.

If Salaita is implying that each of us is morally responsible for making genocidaires accountable to their victims through some other means, then what other means is he suggesting? afaics his major conclusion is implied where he says "how can we conceive of a decent existence in a society that only allows for mechanical participation?" By which I take him to say that a "decent" (iow, morally acceptable) existence requires our recreating society. This is what every idealist has told us for millennia.

OK. If it is within each of our power to recreate society then why hasn't Salaita done this already? According to him it is a personal moral imperative. Ofc, this is an absurd question because the implication that each of us is individually morally responsible for recreating society is as much of an absurdity as the idea that simply not-voting-for-genocidaires will make them accountable to their victims.

But I notice another fallacy hiding in his rhetorical question, "how can we conceive of a decent existence in a society that only allows for mechanical participation?" It's the "only". Given his impassioned plea, I must presume that Salaita is doing as much as he understands to be possible to him to recreate society in the image he desires. He is speaking up, telling truth as he sees it, urging and inciting others to follow his vision, calling genocidaires to account, and probably other activities as well. Which he is currently allowed to do.

In a nation that is actively advancing toward more virulent forms of fascist oppression than we've experienced in many decades, where the police state will be more widely and violently applied to all forms of dissent, it seems better to do whatever we can to preserve at least the imperfect freedoms we currently 'enjoy', which allows us to speak up, tell truth as we see it, urge and incite others to follow our vision, call genocidaires to account, and pursue other activities as well. Even if it includes voting for the guy whose major virtue consists of not openly embracing white supremacists and calling for concentration camps for dissenters.

But I wouldn't waste a bunch of time trying to persuade a fellow Tennessean of it

I lived for Georgia in 30 years and never imagined we'd have a single viable Democratic U.S. Senate candidate, much less 2 sitting Democratic senators, this soon. In 2016 our Senate candidate was Jim Barksdale who is a complete nobody and was clearly a sign that the national party did not give a rat's ass about Georgia. By 2020 things were completely different.

Now I'm in Tennessee and of course I'm aware of the overwhelmingly bleak state of the citizenry's politics, but what happened in the suburbs of Atlanta could potentially happen in Nashville in the next few decades.

One of the things making the GOP more and more apocalyptic is the prospect of Texas becoming a swing state.

Are there any urban areas where the GOP's star is waxing instead of waning? Maybe Oklahoma City?

their strategy to deal with that is to disenfranchise voters in the larger cities (see Texas Senate Bill 1750, letting the GOP take over elections in Harris County... spoiler: that's where Democratic stronghold Houston is and they're going to make it as difficult as possible to vote there)

xxxp When I moved to Georgia in 1996, Democrats still held most state offices and controlled the legislature. The state's Senate delegation was split. By the early 2000s, it had gone completely Republican. Now, things have started to change, although the state is so gerrymandered it will be difficult for the Dems to retake control. It will be interesting to see what the legislature's response will be to the recent loss in court finding that the last redistricting was at least in part racially motivated.

that kind of stuff backfires a lot I feel, I mean the GOP did a lot of this shit in the runup to 2020 and it turns out "they're trying to take away your right to vote" actually brings people out

Are there any urban areas where the GOP's star is waxing instead of waning? Maybe Oklahoma City?

In a sense, maybe like Los Angeles? Seattle? At least compared to where they might've been 10-15 years ago?

Miami-Dade.

“A jury has convicted the man charged with breaking into the home of Rep. Nancy Pelosi and striking her 83-year-old husband in the head with a hammer in an act of political violence fueled by hard-right delusions.

David DePape, a Canadian citizen who was living in the San Francisco Bay Area at the time of the attack, was found guilty by a jury in federal court Thursday of assault and kidnapping charges that could send him to prison for decades.”

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/16/conviction-in-conspiracy-fueled-attack-on-paul-pelosi-00127648

yeah, I don't think having DePape on the stand was such a great idea, but I don't really care that much

Why was that in a federal court?

because he was attempting to attack a member of congress, I assume

meanwhile members of congress are attacking eqach other

The GOP’s star isn’t waxing in Seattle, mainstream Dems are the GOP here. Even the Nextdoor Nazis are democrats.

Lord Alfred and f. Hazel bringing wisdom.

I am a huge nerd and a horserace addict and an inside-the-Beltway creature, so feel free to disregard my opinion. But actually think those epiphenomena are meaningful.

The vote totals for losing candidates in noncompetitive races (or in noncompetitive states) can and do matter, in terms of measuring the viability of, and support for, losing points of view. They affect who runs. Who gets donations. How popular and unpopular various positions are.

When people say "eh, I'm in New York (or Mississippi), my vote doesn't matter," they deprive us of data on what may - eventually- matter in those places.

remember that election where you traded votes via the interwebs, and then got lectured that you broke the law, and you were like yah, right

fwiw, i posted the Salaita essay because i agree with it. i still agree with it. that doesn't mean that i think everyone has to make the same personal choices that i do, and frankly, being lectured or "reasoned with" about it doesn't really change what i see as facts. i'm used to being an outlier here in my political persuasion, that's fine.

"used to" also sometimes comes a little bit off as "pretty god damned proud of it" fwiw

But, as you said upthread, you do you ... the fight needs fighters in all flavors

^^ all the tools in the toolbox plz

one thing the fight absolutely always needs is extreme condescension

When people say "eh, I'm in New York (or Mississippi), my vote doesn't matter," they deprive us of data on what may - eventually- matter in those places.

― Oh I believe in Yetis' Day (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, November 16, 2023 5:12 PM (sixteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Isn't this is a little strange to say in the context of today's posts? table has just been informed repeatedly that he should vote for Biden despite being vehemently opposed to Biden's stance on something that matters to table. it's the very fact that votes for Biden are counted as endorsement of his policies that is the problem

More interesting than lecturing people here would be whether there's any data to support the idea that lecturing non-voters is effective anywhere or at any time.

T/S: lecturing non-voters vs being lectured by non-voters

rob, wrong: I have not told tabes to do shit

I explained what I will do.

the discussion started in reaction to an article that suggested it was immoral to vote for Biden because of his position and actions on Israel/Palestine, fwiw

Isn't this is a little strange to say in the context of today's posts? table has just been informed repeatedly that he should vote for Biden despite being vehemently opposed to Biden's stance on something that matters to table. it's the very fact that votes for Biden are counted as endorsement of his policies that is the problem

― rob, Thursday, November 16, 2023 2:47 PM bookmarkflaglink

Rob, you better paste quote the posts you are talking about.

JCLC's posts are right there

right where? I don't think people appreciate being misquoted or misunderstood.

xxpost i don't think anybody itt is happy with things as they are and/or unwilling to work to change them. however, we also know the election is in less than a year, and the opponent running lead a pretty scary insurrection attempt only 2 years ago.

my feelings on the matter might be a lot different if 2017-2021 didn't happen, Roe v Wade was still standing, SCOTUS still functional, and Biden's opponent someone like Mitt Romney, who woulda fucked a lot of shit up but wouldn't be like throwing outright gasoline on a fire.

I'm hardly going to police anybody's vote anymore...but just sayin.

xp got more whenever somebody needs to be, lol, "lectured"

haha ty

xp
you're right and that's fair, Alfred. I was being too broad-brush, but in my defense other posters were p prescriptive imo. in the spirit of your posts though, I will concede that while it is possible that over the next year I may threaten to not vote out of disgust for Biden/Dems, I will almost certainly do so because I fucking hate republicans. ultimately though, count me on team "pres votes don't matter, mathematically" (eternally registered in Oregon unless I repatriate)

felicity, I can do that I guess, but as sleeve said I think JCLC's posts were pretty clear. that said, it is also possible that I am unfairly drawing on past convos here, since this discussion has happened many times before

feel like there also needs to be a distinction made between ppl who don't vote at all because "the system is broken" or they don't care or w/e, those ppl are disgusting savages (and I don't think any of us here do that?). like, I'm sure table votes in local elections, so I care a lot less about debating his presidential vote and its effectiveness.

felicity, I can do that I guess, but as sleeve said I think JCLC's posts were pretty clear. that said, it is also possible that I am unfairly drawing on past convos here, since this discussion has happened many times before

― rob, Thursday, November 16, 2023 3:21 PM bookmarkflaglink

That's good. As it seemed your objections were to "today's posts" and not previous conversations, I was wondering.

xp

pointing out that your choices are "bad" and "worse" and that you should of course vote for bad, it's honestly a no-brainer, isn't privilege at all, it's math.

― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, November 16, 2023 1:04 PM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

But people in competitive states I hope would really think through the practical consequences of their votes, rather than just their symbolism.

― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Thursday, November 16, 2023 1:55 PM (four hours ago)

These were the main posts I had in mind, but I admit on review there was less lecturing directed at table than I thought. I apologize for exaggerating.

And my only point was that the arguments for voting for Dem presidents had gone from utilitarian pragmatism and harm reduction (e.g., JCLC's post) to an embrace of the symbolic messaging power of voting (the YMP post I responded to), and the latter struck me as quite close to table's position in the first place.

i absolutely vote in local elections and merely refrain from voting for candidates when they hold views i find abhorrent. case in point: Cherelle Parker, the first Black female mayor of Philadelphia, also supports stop and frisk, calling in the National Guard to Kensington, and the building of a monstrous basketball stadium that will destroy a historic and thriving Chinatown. i didn’t vote for her, and i didn’t vote for her opponent— just left the spot blank.

(my other choices all won in that local election, fwiw)

xp
I meant to note that table lives in a "competitive state," so maybe tipsy didn't mean that to be directed at table, but it could be read that way.

I think my conclusion here is that all of these arguments are at base personal rationalizations, because the presidential voting system is corrupted in numerous ways.

I didn't vote for Obama in 2008. I used to lecture jaymc and clemenza (who's Canadian!).

i didn’t vote for her, and i didn’t vote for her opponent— just left the spot blank.

Which is the exact same thing as an affirmative vote for the person you really don't want to win, is what people are saying. If you don't accept that logic, well, OK then.

I would say it's deontological morality v. utilitarian morality, so I understand the argument.

Not my way of thinking of elections, but I also understand that point of view.

xp- I understand what people are saying, and I also have to sleep with myself for the rest of my life, not with any of you.

felicity, that is exactly it.

I also have to sleep with myself for the rest of my life, not with any of you.

New borad description

I'm very much a 'hold my nose' voter but I'm also a partisan Democrat in a tribal sense, so it's not as difficult for me to 'get on board' with people I'm not enthused about... we don't have straight ticket voting in California, but I would probably do it unless Jerry Brown warned me not too

Talk to the man in the mirror

he's asking you to change your cosplay