Anti-semitism thread: onwards from 2023

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"Hmm, it looks like the ref is rescinding his accusation of anti-Semitism."

i don't blame anybody for sharing it, it's how it was framed and info spreads on Twitter quickly

Carry on, Canada

personally I believe anti-semitism is primarily about killing or hurting Jews

― symsymsym, Thursday, November 9, 2023 8:22 AM bookmarkflaglink

I interpreted what Tweedy said as meaning what starts as words or symbols or fears can turn into actions.

Kind of the frog being boiled alive thing

“Antisemitism isn’t primarily about hurting or killing Jews, and it’s not based on some theory of racial inferiority (or superiority),” he wrote. “Instead, antisemitism is a fear, and hatred, of Jewish power — expressed primarily as a readiness to believe that Jews, when organized and acting together on large scales, are dangerous, the very essence of evil.”

The quote's by a Rabbi Rubenstein at Yale, not Tweedy Jr.

I think it's true that anti-semitism almost universally does have this conspiratorial thinking about secret cabals of powerful Jews behind it at one level or another. I just find the framing a bit weird - surely anti-semitism is primarily about the actual consequences to Jews, and is about racial discrimination. And this framing doesn't leave any space for valid criticism of Jews wielding power - it's not anti-semitic for me to attack AIPAC's actions or the ADL's positions.

Jews are no less capable of using power for evil than any other group of people. It's fair for people whose families are bombed or whose lives are consigned to an indefinite military occupation to feel fear or hatred of Israel. Nobody should conflate Israel with Jewish people, but I think these kinds of definitions of anti-semitism themselves muddy the water.

I haven't read the pdf where the quote comes from, so maybe it provides more context, and I'm reading it unfairly.

Someone on my daughter's instagram account just told her the blood of thousands of children is on her hands. It's cool, though, she's distracting herself by helping her roommates hang Christmas decorations. She's decided against hanging Hanukkah decorations for the time being, though. Because something something chilling effect.

sorry jic

That's awful - I'm sorry Josh.

Terrible. People have lost their minds.

Really sorry Josh.

I feel like something has really broken out there. Some kids were running around our neighborhood yelling "White Power" last night. On Tuesday a friend who was working at a polling place had an old man call her over to help him with his ballot. He wanted to know which people running were Jews so he could avoid voting for them.

Damn. People are fucking terrible.

Xpost to Josh and Keyes

That's really messed up. I'm very sorry to hear that Josh.

Similar things have been reported about protests at Northwestern University and a friend of mine who's still there (attended as a student, then got a nice job as university staff) sadly confirmed the details. It's really insane and infuriating how too many people opposed to what's happening in Gaza have been taking it out on all people of Jewish faith - I really expected at least students in a university to know better. I was already bracing for both anti-semitism and Islamophobia to get worse - per the analyst quoted in another thread, to 9/11-era levels - but this is far worse than what I've seen in my lifetime.

Conversely, over here, people who are susceptible to yelling "White Power" are more likely to be supporting Israel's actions.

Thanks everyone, I appreciate it. Fortunately she's a strong kid, and sensible and discipled enough not to reply. She just reported it to the school and moved on.

Shit's pretty fucked up right now. So much rage and frustration, made worse by ignorance and a general erosion of whatever empathy was ever there. Sometimes you just gotta put on Tom Lehrer's "National Brotherhood Week" and laugh.

"I was already bracing for both anti-semitism and Islamophobia to get worse - per the analyst quoted in another thread, to 9/11-era levels"

Yeah I posted that thread and was thinking about it earlier today...

I honestly thought this NYT article was good, https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/09/us/antisemitic-speech-palestine-israel-protests.html and was dismayed to see Dan Nguyen and others downplaying the importance of this on bluesky and elsewhere.

The most heartbreaking thing is, my daughter is a kind, generous, caring person who spends a lot of her time helping and supporting other people (and animals!). She also has anxiety issues (who doesn't?) and, for lots of reasons, finds the Jewish community to be her safe space. When she called me today (not in tears or anything, just to check in and say hi) she told me how a lot of the more liberal voices she gravitates to no longer sound like allies, and a lot of the voices on the right, which she can't stand, are gleefully stepping in to fill that void, which disgusts her. She told me it increasingly feels like there is no place for someone like her, and nowhere is a terrible place to be. The last thing I want her to think is that it's better to just be silent.

The last thing I want her to think is that it's better to just be silent.

I feel that. Every day that passes, the more I feel I just can't speak out about the subject, both due to my own emotions as well as the potential reaction.

I can see why.

That sucks, Josh. I've noticed for a long time that people will start posting that kind of stuff on all kinds of Jewish content on Instagram regardless of if it has any connection to Israel. I'm sure it's worse now.

I saw this post reblogged by a baseball tumblr I follow and thought it was good. Linking because it’s reasonably long and if you guys think it’s full of shit at least it won’t take up too much space itt. On the dangers of false friends (and, as they would say on there: tw: antisemitism): https://postimg.cc/gallery/q7ZMf9S

I can’t read it for some reason, it comes through blurry

If you click the individual images it should be ok

XP, I relate a lot to the instinct to remain silent. In the morass of modern “discourse” it can feel like saying what you think is right also gives ammunition to the people who want to harm you. On the other hand, the loudest among us are often the worst.

I see it now gyac, thanks. Actually dovetails with what I just commented.

I haven't gone to a single march in this mess, and I doubt I will. "Pro-Israel" means many different things to different people. The same goes for "Pro-Palestine." I've heard too many voices speaking on behalf of Israel that disgust me. I've heard too many voices speaking on behalf of Palestine that disgust me. Any protests or marches that make room for these voices are not for me. I don't care if they're a minority, they're a loud minority, and I hear them.

Last night I went to a friend's house for a very small, very informal, not at all religious shiva for his (not Jewish) father. Everyone there was Jewish, to degrees, from converts to atheists to someone that wears a yarmulke to people who can't spell yarmulke without checking (that's me!) to someone with Lebanese roots who, needless to say, no longer has family there. There was, of course, discussion. But no one there was a yeller, or angry. Everyone could speak intelligently but calmly, compassionate but understanding of the complexities, balanced in sympathy but willing to call out both sides. That's what I want, that's what I need.

gyac, the one other thing that I think is important to note about that post, though, is that from a white leftist perspective it may seem easier to just look at neonazis trying to "infiltrate" pro-Palestinian protests with antisemitism, but the reality is a lot messier. Antisemitism in the Muslim world is very old and did not originate with neo-Nazis or even Nazis, I'm not saying most protesters are in any way animated or motivated by that, but I guarantee you that there are plenty of antisemites who don't need encouragement from neo-Nazis.

That’s not remotely the point of that post. That post is specifically calling out people who don’t know better about some of the terms and tropes they’re sharing and warning them that anger is no excuse for antisemitism. I’m…not really sure why you brought Muslims up, at all, since the topic of said post is broader than Nazi infiltration? It’s about people being aware of what they are saying and listening to Jewish people about the language they’re using because there are a lot of bad actors looking for recruits.

Antisemitism in the Muslim world is very old

is this true? my understanding is that european-style (i.e. conspiratorial, metaphysical) antisemitism is a relatively recent import to the region. I could be misinformed. I don't think dhimmi status for jews or christians is the same thing at all.

unless we're including babylonians, romans etc as antisemites which you could make an argument for but that's a much broader definition than I usually see from historians

yeah, I don’t think of Muslim anti-Semitism as being old, either. Of course, being raised Muslim I might be blind to an ugly history.

There is a lot of reference to conflict with Jews in the Qur’an, but my understanding is that that has to do with the social circumstances the Bedouins were in and actual military hostilities between them and neighboring Jewish tribes (of course in this era, uneasy relations between tribes were the norm.) I remember a Muslim scholar once observing that Muslim conflicts with people of the book tilted toward Christians for the next millennium (Crusades, etc.)

I have definitely heard Muslim acquaintances and family members express anti Semitic sentiments when venting their spleen about actions taken by the Israeli government. This has mostly taken the form of eliding Israel with Jewish people writ large. Historically, it made me try to avoid the discussions at all, but I now regret that. As a non-Jew, it was my responsibility to challenge the anti-Semitism as it arose and disambiguate the non bigoted critique of the country from participation in the sludge that is anti-Semitism.

I have definitely heard Muslim acquaintances and family members express anti Semitic sentiments when venting their spleen about actions taken by the Israeli government. This has mostly taken the form of eliding Israel with Jewish people writ large. Historically, it made me try to avoid the discussions at all, but I now regret that. As a non-Jew, it was my responsibility to challenge the anti-Semitism as it arose and disambiguate the non bigoted critique of the country from participation in the sludge that is anti-Semitism.

ugh my internet sucks so bad; sorry about the double post

my perception is that antiSemitism in the Muslim world is fairly young and springs from bad feeling about the conflict. As is the anti-Arab and anti-Muslim sentiment I have sometimes heard from American Jews who must have thought because I was college educated and not foaming at the mouth that I couldn’t possibly be Muslim.

I regret being a nice, polite liberal and staying quiet in the latter circumstances, too.

the new testament has some awful stuff in it too - ofc it was written before christianity and judaism were as distinct so what might have been seen as intra-jewish debates take on much darker meanings later on

I'm sure there is something analogous going on with how modern islamic antisemites use quran or hadiths but I don't know enough about it xps

there is for sure a lot of that and it is gross

That's good.

A follow up question.

I was wondering when you said

It seems to me that if supporters of a cease fire would also clearly state that they disagree with Hamas' mission to eliminate the existence of Israel that would go a long way.

Respectfully, I seriously doubt this. Also, Emmanuel Macron is calling for a ceasefire now; it’s not exactly a marginal position (except in the US). Bernie finally said it too.

― horseshoe, Friday, November 10, 2023 6:22 PM bookmarkflaglink

Do you believe it doesn't matter if people are unclear about whether Israel has a right to exist?

It would certainly matter to me. Even if just knowing who I'm dealing with.

I do think it’s hard to overstate the degree to which the Holocaust is just not central to the non Western world’s understanding of the 20th century; that was European business from their perspective, and I think much of the post-colonial world is pretty focused on their own grievances with Europe. I know that people in Muslim countries have taken up European antiSemitic texts like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in the twentieth and twenty first centuries, which is depressing af. And I have definitely encountered the conspiracist idea of a Jewish cabal controlling everything among Muslims.

I've heard plenty of antisemitic stuff from muslims I worked with and went to school wikt - mostly starting with support for Palestine, "the jews" first used to mean israeli settlers but quickly broadening into the kind of conspiracy shit that took over a lot of the UK left and anti-war movements from the mid 00s onwards

a lot of them changed their minds after being challenged, learning more about history, actually meeting Jewish people, etc. ofc a few were just intractable bigots including an iranian counsellor I had as a teen who noticed my german name and tried to bond with me over hitler

Do you believe it doesn't matter if people are unclear about whether Israel has a right to exist?

It would certainly matter to me. Even if just knowing who I'm dealing with.

― felicity, Sunday, November 12, 2023 12:37 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I think that framing of the question—that of Israel’s right to exist—doesn’t particularly resonate with me. It feels like abstract rights discourse is an odd fit for the material, violent underpinnings of all nation states. Does the United States have a right to exist? Does Pakistan? Probably not and both nations have done and continue to do a lot of harm, but they’re here, and I don’t anticipate them disappearing or being dismantled. I don’t want them to. It would complicate my own life as a US citizen, for sure, but my life isn’t worth more than the lives of the slaughtered indigenous people or enslaved Africans whom this country assaulted.

if my presence in this thread is upsetting to you or anyone else more directly affected by antiSemitism, I’m happy to bow out.

there is also a perception among people who have experienced colonialism that their suffering and atrocities they've survived are never taken as seriously as jewish suffering which is deeply unfortunate all round and is made much worse by a media that loves pitting Jews and their struggles against those other minorities in a zero sum way xps

The other day, a social media friend posted a video of someone (probably in his 30's or 40's) defending the ongoing bombings by going through all the peace deals and land negotiations officially rejected by Palestinians. (FWIW, at this point, I would say the overwhelming majority of my friends and acquaintances on social media who are Jewish are horrified by Israel's disproportionate response to Hamas, but there are five, maybe six who have maintained an uncompromising, hardline stance and this is one of them.) The information is not wrong - those were indeed failed agreements - but what's extremely unsettling to me is when his argument spends so much time in the mid-20th century, going back to the 1940's. In other words, these are events involving individuals who are likely no longer around. It's inherent to any lasting peace that you have to look forward, to understand from a practical perspective that the real hope for peace lies with newer generations who are physically removed from past conflicts and disagreements. I was already demoralized that the past month has already ensured generations of new hatred, of surviving children who will grow up angry and unforgiving for the atrocities they've now lived through whether it's the Oct. 7th massacre or the incessant bombings leveling Gaza, but a bleak future begins to look devoid of any hope if unforgiving blame can stretch back that far, at least for too many people.

It's not upsetting.

It's just from my background I can tell you that there is miles of difference from saying Israel should be held to every standard of international law and saying it shouldn't exist. I truly don't know if this is something non-Jewish people can understand.

Becuase of my background on my mother's side as well I don't know if I can be sorted into the colonizer or colonizer class. She was occupied, forcibly moved, among a population that saw many unjustified killings by the Japanese and also the Russian and Chinese communists.

Also I don't consider myself white which seems to come up a lot in the rhetoric. Thankfully few people have tried to argue this with me.

xp

To more directly answer your question (I didn’t mean to obfuscate; I just get distracted), I do not personally advocate that Israel cease to exist. I’ve always taken that as inflammatory rhetoric that Hamas and other shit-starters engage in to get a reaction. Israel has kicked ass every time conflict has become more-than-rhetorical. Again, applying a standard of legitimacy to Israel that I wouldn’t to the United States seems nakedly anti-Semitic. But I am uncomfortable with sentimental attachment to a nation; a lot of Kashmiris I know are attached to Pakistan because they view it as a “Muslim homeland” alternative to India, and…I mean, I do not want that. I both understand why European 19th century style nationalism appeared progressive and good when it arose and cast a jaundiced eye on its outcomes.

maybe I still haven’t answered your question, Felicity. I guess, I don’t think a lot about whether other advocates of Palestinian liberation want Israel to “end” because it seems like wanting to live in a world of make-believe, to erase the past 100ish years) Most activists I know who organize for a free Palestine don’t want that, for what it’s worth. If I heard someone say it, I would have follow up questions for sure. When I have heard it from a American leftists/Muslims, it has seemed like posturing.