HEY JEWS

eephus deeply deeply OTM

my siblings and I have been discussing getting the check-in message from invariably well-intentioned friends and acquaintances, and being unsure about how to respond.

"how do you feel about everything that's been happening?" well, how much time do you have

I asked my daughter if she knew why we got that email from the school about antisemitism and other derogatory language. Needless to say, imagine some of the extreme self-righteousness that Felicity has observed, only further amplified to heightened high school adolescent levels. My own kid was pretty pissed off and frustrated, because she is one of just a relative few Jews in the school, and she knows if she speaks up about things that make her upset she will be (in her words) "hate-crimed." A lot of people, myself included, have learned as adults when it's best to just say nothing, not for fear of bullying but usually for the sake of comity (or, you know, just because we want to avoid the headache, since we've got other things to deal with). My kid, though ... I feel terrible that she's been put into situations where her *only* option is silence, since to raise her voice from the margins makes her a target for the malicious or ignorant. I really don't know what the answer is.

I am just frustrated with the sheer number of articles, posts, etc. that purport to say what it's like to be Jewish or how "your Jewish friends" are feeling or "Why Jews are *xxxxx* right now" -- there are lots of Jews, and lots of ways Jewish people can feel, and something deep in me rises up in revolt when I see a bulletin that asserts ANYTHING collectively on our behalf

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Wednesday, 25 October 2023 02:10 (one hour ago) link

Oh man, I was just ranting about these lol.

And they keep coming!!!

I feel terrible that she's been put into situations where her *only* option is silence, since to raise her voice from the margins makes her a target for the malicious or ignorant. I really don't know what the answer is.

― Josh in Chicago

i don't know that there _is_ an answer, at least not an easy one, in situations like that.

i haven't ever experienced anti-semitism and i don't know what it's like to experience it. the situation as you describe in the quoted section though... is one i am familiar with.

for a little while a couple years ago i volunteered talking to people questioning their gender identity. a lot of them were in high school and talked about experiences like the one you describe... they didn't feel safe speaking up and felt bad about it. it's _not their responsibility_ to speak up, though. people's first responsibility is to themselves, is to take care of themselves. it feels shitty to want to speak up and not be able to, but when it's _you_ they're coming for, when you're at risk, remaining silent is not wrong.

and it's a situational thing. silence isn't absolute, speaking up isn't absolute. there are lots of ways to be _visible_, and just being _visible_... i've found that makes a lot of difference. but it is a risk. it's nobody's obligation to take those risks, it's a choice, people who are comfortable doing that, it can be good to do that.

anyway. i don't know how much if any of that can apply to your daughter's situation. hopefully at least a little!

Not sure where else to put this.

I've refrained from posting for the most part regarding the current situation in Israel/Palestine because nothing I can type seems adequate. Technically I am not Jewish - a long story I've mentioned here before - short version is my Dad was culturally Jewish who became an evangelical christian and I was raised that way, but also we kept kosher on Passover and went to synagogue on some high holidays. This would tend to confuse a kid. I also look Ashkenazi Jew I guess because when I moved to PA in high school, some kids there asked if I was Jewish right away and I said, "Yes," and later they threw pennies at me. I don't believe in shit now.

Anyway, long intro to a dream I had last night in which my wife and I were in upstate NY, let's say like Rockland County, where a Jewish homeland of sorts was located right next to a homeland for Palestinians, where we wanted to go in order to deliver some supplies to help out. To do so, we had to enter through a lot of security in the Jewish area, then we entered a sort of supermarket area where we were buying supplies. The Jews had a bunch of rules about what supplies could be in the shopping cart with other supplies, so when we were trying to pay for them, we were pulled aside into a little room while a rabbi went through our cart and sorted everything.

After we left the supermarket, we were trying to find the entrance to the Palestinian area. I wandered away from my wife up a short hill where there were Jews sitting in a circle, playing acoustic guitars, and singing. I walked past them up the hill to the top and looked down the other side and saw nothing but a forest of trees of the most brilliant gold color - a promised land basically. I was overwhelmed by a powerful feeling of safety and belonging.

I wandered back down the hill to my wife and we tried to find the entrance to the Palestinian area as the dream ended.

I really, really wish the government of Israel weren't doing what they are doing. That's about all I can say.

Interesting dream. But one thing about it is totally unrealistic - Rockland County is NOT "upstate"!

Fair.

I think it's the southernmost county in NY except for the boroughs.

that's westchester

for ppl like me -- didn't grow up in new york, have only lived in nyc -- anything north of yonkers counts as upstate...

yonkers is part of westchester

xp actually you're right, the southernmost part of Rockland is slightly north of the southernmost part of Westchester, my bad.

for ppl like me -- didn't grow up in new york, have only lived in nyc -- anything north of yonkers counts as upstate...

― slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, October 31, 2023 4:43 PM (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

My dad grew up in Brooklyn and considered Pennsylvania "the west"

I grew up in West Chester, Pennsylvania, and I constantly had to tell people, no, not Westchester New York, West Chester, Pennsylvania.

what about eastchester, you say? well, east chester is a neighborhood in the bronx, while eastchester is a town in westchester county

actually, they're both spelled without the space. good work, everyone

Similarly, Bronxville is NOT in the Bronx.

West New York, New Jersey

Also note that many of the youngest fighters in Hamas grew up as orphans….

for ppl like me -- didn't grow up in new york, have only lived in nyc -- anything north of yonkers counts as upstate...

I was about to complain about pedantry but then I remembered where I was

Geez I read that again and realised it might not look too good. TO CLARIFY: ILX, not the Hey Jews thread 😬

for ppl like me -- didn't grow up in new york, have only lived in nyc -- anything north of yonkers counts as upstate...

I'm from Long Island and have lived there, in NYC, and in the Finger Lakes region. In my head anything north of Westchester is definitely upstate. That said, the Broxville not being in the Bronx (tho it's p damn close) and Eastchester and Eastchester being both places in the bronx and Westchester is confusing as hell. I have been to both because a friend is from the Westchester Eastchester and I love The Bronx.

PKBR I don't know if you know about or have ever been to Moncey but it's in Rockland country and that is kind of a Jewish homeland of sorts.

Eastchester also not even in the east of westchester, it's right in the middle

Yeah, I am aware of the heavy Orthodox presence in Rockland. I think my dreaming brain must have used that.

Not to shift focus away from geo and back to politics, but I've been pretty bummed by the anti Jewish stuff being stirred up all over the place. Anger at Israel always seems to potentiate hatred of Jews. To be fair, it's my fault for clicking on the bait, but ignoring it doesn't mean it's not there. I guess it's always there. My own opinions don't matter one way or another if my synagogue still needs to up security, or my kids don't feel safe at school, or if I'm ever confronted in the street somewhere. Not that I expect that (last thing) to happen, but the fact that I have to even consider it makes me queasy, just as Trump's election made me ponder several "what if?" scenarios.

It's real, and it's a bummer.

i recognize that israel isn't supposed to be representative of all judaism, but when i see sentiments expressed here along the lines of wishing israel would cease to exist, it feels a bit more than the usual anger at the Israeli gov't and military. maybe i'm just overly sensitive.

i'm planning the kid's bar mitzvah(!) now and i'll be real, deep in my mind there are thoughts i have about security and safety, even though it's not at a temple, and it's not like it's going to be advertised online or anything. i just want him to be safe thru life with all this bullshit. i don't even want him to hear anything. he's got an irish last name, his mom is jewish, so i suspect he'll hear some bullshit in passing from others in the future who don't know his background.

i'm not going to lie, i've been struggling w/ the reconciliation of the following two thoughts

1. anti-semitism is real. fear of mass murder in america is real. fear of being mass murdered for a specific reason in america is real.
2. so far, retribution in america regarding this conflict has been entirely flowing in one direction. thankfully no one has died yet on american soil but the people in our country who are being harassed, driven underground, fired, expelled -- in some cases through the will of extremely powerful people -- are those expressing empathy, sympathy, support etc for palestine

the fear of plausible violence is real, the fear of "what if" is real, and yet i'm also looking at a number of incidents of actualized material damage against people's lives in america, and i'm not seeing many (any?) cases of the person in question being pro-israel. i know a kid at cornell got arrested for threatening to shoot up a hillel there.

is the answer simply that, in the parlance of the day, i need to "hold two thoughts in my head at once"? feelings of danger aren't a competition. i repeat this to myself. and yet i have trouble reconciling all of this w/ the fact that i look at what's happening in america and i see, actually, that the punishment is being handed out swiftly and harshly to, in blunt and crude language, not jews

the thing i've read on this topic that sticks with me is this quote from nan goldin about the arforum editor who was fired because the guy who runs bed bath and beyond made it happen (i think the fact of powerful people leveraging their power is an important distinction here as well):

“I have never lived through a more chilling period,” said Goldin, who is one of the most celebrated living photographers and signed the open letter that called for Palestinian liberation and a cease-fire. “People are being blacklisted. People are losing their jobs.”

honestly, i worry about this a lot more than i worry about my family or my friends being shot or attacked for being jewish. but the fear of being shot or attacked is stressful. so again i guess i return to whether the answer is simply to accept both of these facts, or whether my discomfort w/ the imbalance is real/justified etc

so far, retribution in america regarding this conflict has been entirely flowing in one direction

incorrect, my friend

https://missionlocal.org/2023/10/jewish-owned-ice-creamery-smitten-to-reopen-after-being-vandalized-with-pro-palestinian-graffiti/

https://www.politico.com/video/2023/10/31/fbi-director-anti-semitic-threat-reaching-historic-levels-1123918

I'm sure he'll correct me if I am wrong, but by 'retribution' I think Jordan was thinking of institutional punishments meted out for political positions, as opposed to sporadic and mostly anonymous incidents of threats or vandalism.

that is correct, yes. i think it's an important distinction. though it obviously does not make instances of i.e. vandalism less real or that store owner's fears of violence less legitimate. but yes.

am i nervous about the possibility of rising anti-semitic (and islamophobic) tensions in the wake of this crisis? yes. am i annoyed, nay infuriated, by the main character syndrome that influences people in my community to post something like, "would you hide me in your attic?" in the midst of tens of thousands of people being killed by israeli airstrikes? also yes.

I haven't posted anything about any of this anywhere because I just really don't know how I feel about so many different aspects of this and find it hard to process, but one thing that has been bugging me, regarding things like that Nan Goldin quote above and cancelling...I mean, generally I've been totally pro cancel culture. Somebody does something really offensive or wrong, I'm fine not hearing from them again. I know that's a huge simplification, but I haven't complained about the "chilling" effect of cancel culture over the last few years, in regards to things like metoo. What I worry about now is what seems like a quick knee-jerk "cancelation" of institutional punishment for people who, in my limited awareness, didn't seem to do anything more extreme than voice criticism of Israeli govt policies and actions.

As a Jew, or jew-ish, person, I've thought a lot about the classic stereotypes of Jewish control of media, of industry, of hollywood etc. The idea that any professor or artist who signs a letter calling for a cease-fire should immediately be fired, and that it is happening, seems crazy to me. I just looked at the letter now and it seems like they made the unforced error of not first stating how horrific Oct 7th was and have amended the letter to include such a statement.

Is it ridiculous to think anti-semites can just gleefully use all of this cancellation as further proof that Jews control everything?

I think the refusal of certain anti-semitic tropes to disappear has less to do with anything that may seemingly validate them and more to do with the fact that they are constantly circulated as anti-semitic tropes no matter what anybody says or does.

I have seen a handful of people canceled or fired or whatever for statements that went past anti-Israel and creeped awfully close if not right up against anti-Semitic, but fortunately they have been a minority, as far as I can tell. I think there have been a lot more people canceled or fired or shamed or whatever for statements whose supposed failures hinge largely on the difference between the use of "and" and "but," though at the same time, if I was going to voluntarily, publicly wade into such a minefield, I would be careful with my words. I've seen a few very deft but still moving statements that show the difference a little extra care and effort can make, whatever the intent.

if I was going to voluntarily, publicly wade into such a minefield, I would be careful with my words. I've seen a few very deft but still moving statements that show the difference a little extra care and effort can make, whatever the intent.

― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, November 1, 2023 6:07 PM (seventeen minutes ago)

"be intentional and careful with what you say regarding controversial subjects" is good general life advice but tbh... you are spelling out the concept of a chilling effect in this post

at the very least, it shouldn't be in dispute that the punishments so far for a lack of "a little extra care and effort" have been far outsized in relation to the mistakes

I don't mean "be careful" like a threat or anything, just, like, take care to make sure you're not misunderstood, if that's a concern.

But yeah, some responses have been pretty disproportionate, I agree.

Hey Jews, anti-Semitism, Israel ... it's all one thread, really. I'm not a praying man, but I do think - too much, not enough - and the more I think about the current situation(s), the more I think we're reaching the end of Judaism. It's certainly been creeping in that direction for centuries, like the doomsday clock that's always one minute to midnight. Anyway, just how I'm feeling these days. Just another apocalypse to compartmentalize.

Nah

yeah definitely don't feel that way, idk what would make this crisis, of all the thousands of years worth of crisis, be the final crisis to shut it down.

why is this moment more likely to "end judaism" than the holocaust or the spanish inquisition?

I guess I would say because in a sense they did what they set out to do: decimate the global Jewish population. Jews and Judaism exist not despite events like those, but *because* of events like those. The Jewish population is a fraction of what it once was and certainly what it might have been because of the success of those events, one of which happened really not that long ago, in the modern era, in my mother's lifetime. That leaves Jews a minority of a minority, without the voice and certainly without the numbers to reliably stand up against oppression. Which brings us, unfortunately, to Israel.

Israel only exists because of the aforementioned, because Jews were expelled, killed or otherwise ethnically cleansed throughout Europe, Russia, the Middle East, parts of Africa. So to Israel many went, and now Israel is home to a huge percentage of the Jewish population, the fallout being whatever fate befalls Israel befalls a huge number of Jews. I hate what's going on there. It makes me sick to my stomach. But I've not heard many people offer a solution that bodes well for the Jews. (What else is new, right?) A single state solution? I don't see that happening, and it would almost certainly be as bad for the Jewish population there as it has been in the surrounding region, not least after so many years of conflict. A two-state solution? Better, but what does that look like? Would Palestine be allowed all the rights of a sovereign nation? A standing army? Free trade with whomever it wants? The unfettered ability to wage war, as Israel has enjoyed? Anything less would negate the point of being a country. 

All that almost preordains further conflict with Israel, as does, needless to say, the status quo, whose opposition is louder and angrier than I have ever seen it. Which leaves the option of the Jews scattering once again, but to where? To all the places that killed or expelled them? En masse to the United States? I don't see that happening, and I don't see any of these things alleviating anti-Semitism at all. In fact, I think it would embolden it, with the Jewish population weakened even more. With history as guide, that path inevitably leads only in one direction.

Now, I'm writing this from the comfort of my home, where I feel safe and surrounded by friends and family. But I don't feel surrounded by Jews, not here, not really anywhere. And when any of us gather in relatively large numbers, I mostly feel surrounded by an overwhelmingly not-Jewish world, some of which wish us dead, but most of whom wouldn't notice if we were gone. We talk about chilling effects? I think that's what we're going to see. Judaism getting quieter and quieter, smaller and smaller, until it might as well be gone entirely. And functionally will be. 

Bummer, right? I'm not curled up in a ball or anything like that, but the weight of things has been getting to me.

my friend there are roughly the same number of Jews in the world now as there were in 1942 (~16M), if not more (upper estimates over 20M)

I appreciate the reassurance but in the same time span the world population grew by, what, almost six billion?

I'm not really concerned about the survival of Judaism right now, but the situation in Israel/Palestine feels awful and intractable to me and that is definitely causing me a lot of distress.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buQ1C5RJ2Vk

I rewatch this from time to time when I feel despair