HEY JEWS

Part of what's so exhaustingly intense is that people engaged on all sides/perspectives seem to believe that their cause is infinitely important and righteous, and this belief is reinforced in a completely unmitigated way by their respective media bubbles. Aside from how incompatible with humility and fallibility that is on principle, it makes the expression of any other opinion look beyond the pale, and needless to say shuts down any sort of dialogue or connection.

― Lavator Shemmelpennick, Tuesday, October 24, 2023 8:40 AM bookmarkflaglink

This is a very good point. When I was more naïve I used to think of "righteousness" as a good thing. Then I saw how righteousness turns to justified. And how justified turns to intolerant.

So I have developed kind of a fear of extremely self-righteous or self-justified people, and I try very hard not to become what I despise- intolerant.

Anyway I think this revive came at an extremely good time and I appreciate all the positivity within it.

good posts, all. a lot of my feelings are echoed here. i have typed up and deleted many social media posts in response to the discourse, and ultimately have declined to say anything at all, in support of israel or palestine. it just isn't worth it. i feel what i feel, and that is gonna have to be enough.

here's what i've been very close to posting: the first was a message about the bloodthirstiness and dehumanization of palestinians i've been seeing on the feeds of nominally liberal jewish folks, the second was a message asking american jews to take a step back and think about who is really in the most danger right now. hint: they don't live in the new york metropolitan area.

but ultimately, i didn't want to add to the noise, or start a hostile conversation that might cause some real life blowback for me, my wife, my mom & dad, etc.

I mentioned Jonathan Katz's substack posts in the other thread, but today he posted a personal essay on how his views on Israel and Palestine evolved since childhood through his years in school (encompassing a residency in Israel) and his current profession and newfound fatherhood, growing more complicated and despondent.

FWIW, I've always been an observer on the outside - I grew up with many Jewish friends, so much that I was really green in terms of how much anti-semitism there was in the world and how very few actually identify as being Jewish (as a child, I just presumed there was any many Jewish Americans as Christians). I didn't know anyone who Muslim until college, and over the course of those four years, I became close friends with many from different countries, and in most cases they were the first people I knew from their homelands. (When 90% of what you "knew" about Iran came from idiotic comedies and action films, it really is an eye opener when you engage in the real world.) Given the world events of the past 20 years and grieving over one of my own friends killed in the Middle East has turned me into a likely pacifist. I can't say for sure - I never thought of identifying myself as one and keep thinking there may be a scenario where I would stray from that philosophy - but it's come to the point that whenever I process these things they seem very present rather than distant, and I find an unshakeable disbelief in both violence and revenge. I feel more and more alone in this for a lot of reasons, but I relate to a lot of Katz's expressed feelings - for whatever reason, that brings some measure of hope even if it's cloaked in a lack of faith that the winds will shift towards peace.

*there was as many

*who was Muslim
*engage with
*World events of the past 23 years

sorry, too many typos

very sorry for your friend.

That Katz piece was very good, thanks.

yes, I have been looking for exactly that, thank you.

Agreed, can identify with being raised with unquestioning Zionism and a very antiseptic story of Israel, and the mounting degrees of disillusionment over the years (I never went on the trip though).

another goy checking in. it's just... so hard watching this unfold. the... i don't say anything because i don't know what to say, who i'm talking to and why. i don't... like, my personal opinions about a war half the world over, what does it matter? who cares, you know, what i think? it's the people i know, and i don't think i personally know any jewish people who think that what israel's leaders are doing is right, or _justified_. or at least, nobody who's willing to speak up to justify what the israeli leadership is doing.

muslims get called "terrorists", jewish people get called... i don't even know, i don't pay that much attention. people say things about the people i know, things that aren't true.

i grew up in northern new jersey, and anti-semitism seemed so... stupid. there was anti-semitism. i heard once that an entire boy scout troop quit when they found out that someone in their troop was jewish. it seemed so profoundly ignorant and self-defeating. like, what the fuck did they think? where did they think they were living? i didn't understand why _anybody_ would hate jews. jewish people were just an ordinary, everday part of my life.

i've moved a lot and i'm still surprised that it's not like that most places. a lot of places, everything people know about judaism is filtered through the lens of israeli politics. when i lived in indianapolis, i heard that some people called the part of town where most of the jewish people lived, around 71st and meridian, the "gaza strip". i was still trying to wrap my head around the idea that there was a _part of town_ where most of the jewish people lived.

i still knew a couple jewish people in indianapolis, visited the synagogue near 71st and meridian. they stood out, unlike in new jersey, but they were still part of my everyday life. i moved out here to pdx and just... nothing. the absolute ignorance people have here about jewish people is pretty amazing. there used to be a latke food cart near where i live. i went there on rosh hashanah last year and asked them what their most popular latke was. "the bacon latke", they said. that's how much most people around here understand about judaism.

these days i know a fair few jewish people. it comes up sometimes. when people are multiply marginalized, there tends to be overlap. i saw this one lady give a class at she bop, she had this rad tattoo that's a combination of the star of david and the trans symbol. she's studying to be a rabbi, i hear. i think that's cool. why shouldn't she be? kalonymus ben kalonymus was a rabbi. there are probably jewish people in pdx who aren't queer, but i don't think i've ever met any of them. i get the impression that all of the jewish people out here are also queer.

i don't know. i think jewish people are awesome. i think judaism, this sounds weird, i think judaism is awesome. because it's complicated. because there's so much to it. i don't understand why so many people act like it isn't.

There are about 50,000 Jews in Portland! Roughly 3 times as many as in Indianapolis.

There are about 50,000 Jews in Portland! Roughly 3 times as many as in Indianapolis.

― Guayaquil (eephus!)

yeah, but how many of them are straight? :)

What I've noticed in recent times is this tendency on the part of certain people to consistently be, "this isn't anti semitic and here's why" anytime anything is professed that might actually really be a bit anti-semitic.

a kid at my son's school told some Israeli kids he was in conflict with that he supported Hamas. It didn't go over well. My son knows him pretty well and it's tough for him, considering his mom's family and their history. He carries my Irish last name and I've told him he'll likely unfortunately hear things from people in the future who wouldn't know he's Jewish, and it might hurt. He understands it. He loves everyone though, amazing how well he sees both sides at age 12.

As an Irish Catholic dude I don't have the same perspective but I'll admit some anger and hurt over a few callous-seeming posts on the Israel threads in the wake of the Hamas attack and the Israeli response. A couple things felt a bit coded to me.

Yeah. I'm not wasting my time arguing about it anymore, but definitely felt that way. I liked the Katz piece and related to some of it but don't fully buy into the settler colonialist framework/analysis. I think that any side in a war has its apologetics, and that's understandable. I don't have to adopt them though.

The way I see it, everything that's happening is bigger than me, including the narrative shifts. Some of those narrative shifts are understandable. I don't have the energy to play whack-a-mole with every piece of rhetoric that rubs me the wrong way. In extreme cases I'll call it out.

Never a good sign when we get an email from the high school emphasizing that "derogatory or hateful speech has no place in our school and will not be tolerated. Every student deserves a safe, welcoming place in which to learn, and we condemn antisemitic and Islamophobic speech and acts."

I am just frustrated with the sheer number of articles, posts, etc. that purport to say what it's like to be Jewish or how "your Jewish friends" are feeling or "Why Jews are *xxxxx* right now" -- there are lots of Jews, and lots of ways Jewish people can feel, and something deep in me rises up in revolt when I see a bulletin that asserts ANYTHING collectively on our behalf

And these articles are always written by Jews! How can any Jewish person who lives in a Jewish community, and who knows the variety even within one Jewish family, think they have the right to speak for all of us?

"Here's what your Jewish friend is going through, but only if your Jewish friend is me, eephus, otherwise you're on your own, maybe ask them," that's the article I would write

What's the saying, "two Jews, three opinions"?

eephus deeply deeply OTM

my siblings and I have been discussing getting the check-in message from invariably well-intentioned friends and acquaintances, and being unsure about how to respond.

"how do you feel about everything that's been happening?" well, how much time do you have

I asked my daughter if she knew why we got that email from the school about antisemitism and other derogatory language. Needless to say, imagine some of the extreme self-righteousness that Felicity has observed, only further amplified to heightened high school adolescent levels. My own kid was pretty pissed off and frustrated, because she is one of just a relative few Jews in the school, and she knows if she speaks up about things that make her upset she will be (in her words) "hate-crimed." A lot of people, myself included, have learned as adults when it's best to just say nothing, not for fear of bullying but usually for the sake of comity (or, you know, just because we want to avoid the headache, since we've got other things to deal with). My kid, though ... I feel terrible that she's been put into situations where her *only* option is silence, since to raise her voice from the margins makes her a target for the malicious or ignorant. I really don't know what the answer is.

I am just frustrated with the sheer number of articles, posts, etc. that purport to say what it's like to be Jewish or how "your Jewish friends" are feeling or "Why Jews are *xxxxx* right now" -- there are lots of Jews, and lots of ways Jewish people can feel, and something deep in me rises up in revolt when I see a bulletin that asserts ANYTHING collectively on our behalf

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Wednesday, 25 October 2023 02:10 (one hour ago) link

Oh man, I was just ranting about these lol.

And they keep coming!!!

I feel terrible that she's been put into situations where her *only* option is silence, since to raise her voice from the margins makes her a target for the malicious or ignorant. I really don't know what the answer is.

― Josh in Chicago

i don't know that there _is_ an answer, at least not an easy one, in situations like that.

i haven't ever experienced anti-semitism and i don't know what it's like to experience it. the situation as you describe in the quoted section though... is one i am familiar with.

for a little while a couple years ago i volunteered talking to people questioning their gender identity. a lot of them were in high school and talked about experiences like the one you describe... they didn't feel safe speaking up and felt bad about it. it's _not their responsibility_ to speak up, though. people's first responsibility is to themselves, is to take care of themselves. it feels shitty to want to speak up and not be able to, but when it's _you_ they're coming for, when you're at risk, remaining silent is not wrong.

and it's a situational thing. silence isn't absolute, speaking up isn't absolute. there are lots of ways to be _visible_, and just being _visible_... i've found that makes a lot of difference. but it is a risk. it's nobody's obligation to take those risks, it's a choice, people who are comfortable doing that, it can be good to do that.

anyway. i don't know how much if any of that can apply to your daughter's situation. hopefully at least a little!

Not sure where else to put this.

I've refrained from posting for the most part regarding the current situation in Israel/Palestine because nothing I can type seems adequate. Technically I am not Jewish - a long story I've mentioned here before - short version is my Dad was culturally Jewish who became an evangelical christian and I was raised that way, but also we kept kosher on Passover and went to synagogue on some high holidays. This would tend to confuse a kid. I also look Ashkenazi Jew I guess because when I moved to PA in high school, some kids there asked if I was Jewish right away and I said, "Yes," and later they threw pennies at me. I don't believe in shit now.

Anyway, long intro to a dream I had last night in which my wife and I were in upstate NY, let's say like Rockland County, where a Jewish homeland of sorts was located right next to a homeland for Palestinians, where we wanted to go in order to deliver some supplies to help out. To do so, we had to enter through a lot of security in the Jewish area, then we entered a sort of supermarket area where we were buying supplies. The Jews had a bunch of rules about what supplies could be in the shopping cart with other supplies, so when we were trying to pay for them, we were pulled aside into a little room while a rabbi went through our cart and sorted everything.

After we left the supermarket, we were trying to find the entrance to the Palestinian area. I wandered away from my wife up a short hill where there were Jews sitting in a circle, playing acoustic guitars, and singing. I walked past them up the hill to the top and looked down the other side and saw nothing but a forest of trees of the most brilliant gold color - a promised land basically. I was overwhelmed by a powerful feeling of safety and belonging.

I wandered back down the hill to my wife and we tried to find the entrance to the Palestinian area as the dream ended.

I really, really wish the government of Israel weren't doing what they are doing. That's about all I can say.

Interesting dream. But one thing about it is totally unrealistic - Rockland County is NOT "upstate"!

Fair.

I think it's the southernmost county in NY except for the boroughs.

that's westchester

for ppl like me -- didn't grow up in new york, have only lived in nyc -- anything north of yonkers counts as upstate...

yonkers is part of westchester

xp actually you're right, the southernmost part of Rockland is slightly north of the southernmost part of Westchester, my bad.

for ppl like me -- didn't grow up in new york, have only lived in nyc -- anything north of yonkers counts as upstate...

― slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, October 31, 2023 4:43 PM (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

My dad grew up in Brooklyn and considered Pennsylvania "the west"

I grew up in West Chester, Pennsylvania, and I constantly had to tell people, no, not Westchester New York, West Chester, Pennsylvania.

what about eastchester, you say? well, east chester is a neighborhood in the bronx, while eastchester is a town in westchester county

actually, they're both spelled without the space. good work, everyone

Similarly, Bronxville is NOT in the Bronx.

West New York, New Jersey

Also note that many of the youngest fighters in Hamas grew up as orphans….

for ppl like me -- didn't grow up in new york, have only lived in nyc -- anything north of yonkers counts as upstate...

I was about to complain about pedantry but then I remembered where I was

Geez I read that again and realised it might not look too good. TO CLARIFY: ILX, not the Hey Jews thread 😬

for ppl like me -- didn't grow up in new york, have only lived in nyc -- anything north of yonkers counts as upstate...

I'm from Long Island and have lived there, in NYC, and in the Finger Lakes region. In my head anything north of Westchester is definitely upstate. That said, the Broxville not being in the Bronx (tho it's p damn close) and Eastchester and Eastchester being both places in the bronx and Westchester is confusing as hell. I have been to both because a friend is from the Westchester Eastchester and I love The Bronx.

PKBR I don't know if you know about or have ever been to Moncey but it's in Rockland country and that is kind of a Jewish homeland of sorts.

Eastchester also not even in the east of westchester, it's right in the middle

Yeah, I am aware of the heavy Orthodox presence in Rockland. I think my dreaming brain must have used that.

Not to shift focus away from geo and back to politics, but I've been pretty bummed by the anti Jewish stuff being stirred up all over the place. Anger at Israel always seems to potentiate hatred of Jews. To be fair, it's my fault for clicking on the bait, but ignoring it doesn't mean it's not there. I guess it's always there. My own opinions don't matter one way or another if my synagogue still needs to up security, or my kids don't feel safe at school, or if I'm ever confronted in the street somewhere. Not that I expect that (last thing) to happen, but the fact that I have to even consider it makes me queasy, just as Trump's election made me ponder several "what if?" scenarios.

It's real, and it's a bummer.

i recognize that israel isn't supposed to be representative of all judaism, but when i see sentiments expressed here along the lines of wishing israel would cease to exist, it feels a bit more than the usual anger at the Israeli gov't and military. maybe i'm just overly sensitive.

i'm planning the kid's bar mitzvah(!) now and i'll be real, deep in my mind there are thoughts i have about security and safety, even though it's not at a temple, and it's not like it's going to be advertised online or anything. i just want him to be safe thru life with all this bullshit. i don't even want him to hear anything. he's got an irish last name, his mom is jewish, so i suspect he'll hear some bullshit in passing from others in the future who don't know his background.

i'm not going to lie, i've been struggling w/ the reconciliation of the following two thoughts

1. anti-semitism is real. fear of mass murder in america is real. fear of being mass murdered for a specific reason in america is real.
2. so far, retribution in america regarding this conflict has been entirely flowing in one direction. thankfully no one has died yet on american soil but the people in our country who are being harassed, driven underground, fired, expelled -- in some cases through the will of extremely powerful people -- are those expressing empathy, sympathy, support etc for palestine

the fear of plausible violence is real, the fear of "what if" is real, and yet i'm also looking at a number of incidents of actualized material damage against people's lives in america, and i'm not seeing many (any?) cases of the person in question being pro-israel. i know a kid at cornell got arrested for threatening to shoot up a hillel there.

is the answer simply that, in the parlance of the day, i need to "hold two thoughts in my head at once"? feelings of danger aren't a competition. i repeat this to myself. and yet i have trouble reconciling all of this w/ the fact that i look at what's happening in america and i see, actually, that the punishment is being handed out swiftly and harshly to, in blunt and crude language, not jews

the thing i've read on this topic that sticks with me is this quote from nan goldin about the arforum editor who was fired because the guy who runs bed bath and beyond made it happen (i think the fact of powerful people leveraging their power is an important distinction here as well):

“I have never lived through a more chilling period,” said Goldin, who is one of the most celebrated living photographers and signed the open letter that called for Palestinian liberation and a cease-fire. “People are being blacklisted. People are losing their jobs.”

honestly, i worry about this a lot more than i worry about my family or my friends being shot or attacked for being jewish. but the fear of being shot or attacked is stressful. so again i guess i return to whether the answer is simply to accept both of these facts, or whether my discomfort w/ the imbalance is real/justified etc