Israel to World: "Suck It."

and i definitely wouldn't say violence can never be justified. violence is still the underlying tool of hegemonic power

I just think it’s fucked up that a US president can just say that he saw pictures of beheaded babies and then it turns out that no, he hadn’t actually. after his comments had already been picked up widely, of course.

yes it is ghoulish and ultimately meaningless to discuss whether or not it happened, because dead babies are dead babies. but it does matter, the role that this kind of misinformation plays in justifying further violence - everyone involved is guilty of it but it’s worth considering how effective it can be, especially when there’s unequal reach and access to global media.

I would argue that making distinctions is useful precisely because the shape that violence takes is different when it's institutionalized / legalized, when it's the result of asymmetric conflict, when groups blur the lines between state and non-state.

otm

the clarification from the White House:

Clarification from the White House regarding Biden's remarks https://t.co/8fXafd5Bpn https://t.co/zsEf93bH0g pic.twitter.com/N7ci2jHXf2

— Evan Hill (@evanhill) October 12, 2023

Just to say that there are a lot of celebs out there showing their whole asses on social media. Jesus.

I didn't mean to characterise it as purposeless. Everyone and his dog knows what Israel's response would be, so the purpose was to presumably to elicit that response. What the purpose of eliciting that response would be is another question

"I just think it’s fucked up that a US president can just say that he saw pictures of beheaded babies and then it turns out that no, he hadn’t actually."

More intelligence/advisor failures.

'clarification'

I don’t know any better than anyone else but I tend to think events can be chaotic and unpredictable. I don’t think everything is always according to someone’s plan. Maybe Bibi believed Hamas really was planning something but overconfidently underestimated their capabilities or overestimated the effectiveness of the security present there. Maybe Hamas in fact underestimated how “successful” this attack would be or how devastating it would be. Both have been engaged in a cat and mouse game of low level conflict but sometimes that can spiral out of control. It’s hard for me to imagine either is getting “exactly what they wanted” now.

Yeah, as any number of examples illustrate it is far easier to initiate violent action than it is to predict or control its outcomes. Except that you can reliably predict that innocent people will suffer, and the most vulnerable people in any given population or area will suffer the most.

"no one colonizes innocently, that no one colonizes with impunity either; that a nation which colonizes, that a civilization which justifies colonization—and therefore force—is already a sick civilization, a civilization which is morally diseased"- Aimé Césaire https://t.co/8LIYLz0iZg

— ♥️🐈‍⬛ نورهان (@islamocommunism) October 12, 2023

Both have been engaged in a cat and mouse game of low level conflict but sometimes that can spiral out of control. It’s hard for me to imagine either is getting “exactly what they wanted” now.

I mostly agree here, but people gamble, people make mistakes, people can have access to information we don't. Hamas might have felt they were being squeezed out and wanted to put a break on normalisation before the window shut, decisions might not be perfect but seen as the best option available at the time

neither side might be getting "exactly what they wanted" now, but think they will in time. Also if its true Hamas top brass didn't know about this (was this verified yet or not?), that could point to disagreement or perceived disagreement.

But either way, given the target, size, and manner its difficult for me to believe Hamas didn't fully understand the immediate consequences and factor them in

nothing more performative than posting recognition of Indigenous People's Day while posting I Stand with Israel at the same time

I get what you're saying but I also dislike the idea that 'because you support x you must also support y'. There are similarities between Palestinians and native americans in the US, and there are major differences, and it is not helpful to conflate the two populations.

nah

apartheid is apartheid, occupation is occupation, I don't care if the specific details don't match line for line.

It's the thoughtlessness of the performativity, as performativity often is.

Dude I'm Oglala and I'm here to tell you that both natives in the US and jews have been targets of genocide. I dislike 'occupation' too but there are obvious differences between the population of Jews in Israel (who have roots that stretch back thousands of years) and white people in the US, who were not at all present in this region. It's apples and oranges. But yes, the performativity is lame.

I suppose we'll find out one day but I suspect Hamas didn't expect there to be absolutely no major security presence and for this attack to be quite as devastating as it turned out to be.

The whole situation is unspeakably sad. As is the treatment of Native populations in North America.

Don't know what else to add but appreciate everyone speaking from the heart and giving space to do so.

I truly hope for a more peaceful future where innocent people can just live their lives.

xp

I suppose we'll find out one day but I suspect Hamas didn't expect there to be absolutely no major security presence and for this attack to be quite as devastating as it turned out to be.

Hezbollah certainly knew there was no major security presence and had previously commented on it, its not unreasonable to assume Hamas had also become aware of it (especially given the movement of personnel to the West Bank in addition to people staying at home in protest against the judicial reforms).

Also given the level of planning, it seems likely they would have investigated how the military defences in the region were distributed. I think presence of a large musical festival in the direct path of the operation is unlikely to have been coincidental

meant to say timing rather than path. Given the size of Gaza the festival was probably unavoidable

Armed Israeli settlers are attacking the funerals for the Palestinians they killed yesterday in Qusra in the West Bank. Total impunity compounded by a war in the south means settler violence is surely going to escalate even further. https://t.co/OtwORIQq1S

— Mairav Zonszein מרב זונשיין (@MairavZ) October 12, 2023

An author I know who is an I/P expert had this to say about the kibbutz where Supernova was held:

The Supernova rave was billed as a psy-trance event - a New Age gathering aimed at universal consciousness. It lost its original site two days before the event. It found new premises on a kibbutz which is both a military base and a hi-tech supplier to the Israeli army. The story of the rave sums up a lot of elements that are unique about Israel, but are so commonplace that Israelis don't even notice how odd their country is. A new age festival on a military base, right by Gaza, an open prison. The website of the kibbutz below says:

"The kibbutz owns the Isralaser company, which was the first laser company in Israel to buy an advanced laser machine for the purpose of cutting metals, most of which is intended for the defense industry. The plant itself is protected not only by a battery of tanks placed right in front of it but also by Holy Water bottles created for the international Christian community."

New: The U.S. and Qatar have agreed to stop payments from $6 billion humanitarian fund for Iran in light of the Hamas attack in Israel

Bipartisan calls to stop the $

Iranian officials say it "rightfully belongs to the people of Iran"https://t.co/VB6Wq9wJ4T

— Jeff Stein (@JStein_WaPo) October 12, 2023

Four out of five Jewish Israelis believe the government and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu are to blame for the mass infiltration of Hamas terrorists and the massacre of Israel's South, a new poll released on Thursday found. pic.twitter.com/gJJGinAyX6

— Max Abrahms (@MaxAbrahms) October 12, 2023

Yes, that's exactly what I figured. Maybe even higher. The Israeli relationship to its government and to war and security were vastly different the day before this attack than Americans' relationship to it on 9/10/2001. Israeli politics is not American politics. The simplistic equation of people feel attacked = people rally around the president is not some universal truth that applies equally everywhere in every situation. I don't know if it's worth getting into any more of my thoughts on why I believe that to be the case. But I think it's important to dispel the idea that this was all part of Netanyahu's devious plan. The world is just not that simple.

Tonight's book launch will not go ahead after the Metropolitan Police contacted the host organisation and asked that it be cancelled "due to security concerns." https://t.co/A6liXrSc0c

— Palestine Festival of Literature (@PalFest) October 12, 2023

*maybe even higher meaning that's even higher disapproval than I might have expected

FFS, Conway Hall is almost opposite the big Met station on Theobalds Road and they should give security support without fear or favour. I live so close to both and I’m LIVID. There’s also a demo scheduled for Saturday so maybe shenanigans are on the cards for that too.

However, I am aware that there’s someone on the board of Conway Hall who is both a TERF and an Israel hawk so I’m wondering if she had a quiet word?

The simplistic equation of people feel attacked = people rally around the president is not some universal truth that applies equally everywhere in every situation. I don't know if it's worth getting into any more of my thoughts on why I believe that to be the case

Its absolutely worth you going into more of your thoughts!

I was one of the people that intimated that might happen, but its not something I was suggesting with conviction (and I definitely recognize Israel today is not the US of 2001, with the ongoing division of the last year). I found it odd the military had been moved, but I understand there are other reasons for this (coalition partners wanting focus on West Bank)

The simplistic equation of people feel attacked = people rally around the president is not some universal truth that applies equally everywhere in every situation. I don't know if it's worth getting into any more of my thoughts on why I believe that to be the case

Didnt really work out too well for Neville Chamberlain, did it?

it's very different when the same person has been in charge for almost all the last 15 years, for one thing

excellent interview with the writer of that book here: https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/could-the-attack-on-israel-spell-the-end-of-hamas

A new Chotiner interview: https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/where-the-palestinian-political-project-goes-from-here

I see

"What about those Palestinians who are in hospital on life support & babies in incubators that will have to be turned off because Israelis have cut the power to Gaza?"

Ex Israeli PM Naftali Bennett: ""Are you seriously asking me about Palestinian civilians? Whats wrong wth you?" pic.twitter.com/mN5sH5PWyi

— Saul Staniforth (@SaulStaniforth) October 12, 2023

I had no idea Nazi Germany was occupied and brutalized for most of its existence!

Its absolutely worth you going into more of your thoughts!

Well this is just my take and it's not like I am constantly closely following Israeli politics, but having at least some ties there there are a few things that come to mind. One is that Americans did not really live with a feeling of threat pre-9/11, and the average American experienced the attack as though it came out of nowhere. Israelis constantly have a sense of threat in the back of their mind if not the front. Israel has universal conscription, and the service does not take place somewhere halfway around the world. Israel has multiple wars on its soil or borders in living memory as well as the intifadas, prior Hamas cross-border attacks, frequent rocket fire, etc. "Security" is always at the forefront of Israeli politics. Even 9/11 didn't originate across a border in Mexico or Canada, it originated in Saudi Arabia and Egypt. So while there was some talk of "Bush didn't heed the warnings," it was hard to really get people riled up to blame Bush, especially since the attack was so surprising to Americans.

This attack was surprising too, but to the extent it shattered any illusions, they were fairly recent and weakly held illusions. And Bibi specifically sold himself as the most security president of all security presidents. It was practically all he had going for him - corrupt and brazen but at least "he keeps us safe." There was a period of relative quiet and calm for the last decade for Israelis. That's over. Plus you already had the backdrop of the judicial reforms, i.e. the soft authoritarian coup he has attempted. Anyone remotely liberal-leaning HATES Bibi and has hated him for a long time. There have been constant protests against him. Massive numbers of people have actually refused reserve duty in protest - it's hard to explain what a big statement that is for an Israeli to make and it was probably unthinkable 20 years ago.

Then, you have the fact of parliamentary politics and the fact that Bibi relies on cobbled together coalition govts that can easily fall apart.

Finally, the fact that Bibi has now dragged Israel into another war with a strong chance of ground invasion, multiple fronts, and potentially even more occupation has very different implications than the faraway wars the US's professional army fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. My wife's cousins are in their late 30s with little kids at home and they now may have to go risk their lives for what is effectively a massive fuckup. And there are high risks of further harm to Israeli civilians and soldiers, especially if fighting begins on the northern border or in the West Bank. And unlike 9/11, this was so CLEARLY, unequivocally Bibi's fuckup.

And when I say "may have to go risk their lives" I mean they are mobilized, so it's more likely than not, a ground invasion seems very likely at this point.

really appreciate yr posts and perspective here, ty

Or to simplify:

America: "Huh why would they do this what's Al Qaeda, yay Bush go get em" - sends a bunch of poor kids over to a country we can't find on a map

Israel: "You fucking idiot, everybody knew this could happen" - all able bodied men under 40 and many women are forced to go risk death mere dozens of miles away in an avoidable conflagration from an ongoing conflict that has been a presence for their entire lives

And to be clear, I don't mean to use "threat" in any kind of moralizing way, I just mean it as a fact of life whether you think the threat is justified or not

Leaders who take nations into wars not surviving the war is not uncommon. It happened in both world wars in the UK.

From one of those interviews:

"This is the first time I have been interviewed by The New Yorker, and it’s happening because Israelis were killed. What happened when Palestinians were killed in the thousands, just in the fifteen years that I’ve been covering Hamas? And so, when we really want to think about what this driver of violence is—and the pictures that have been coming out are sickening—we need to understand that colonial violence instills dehumanization both in the oppressor and in the oppressed. And it’s completely out of mind. It’s mind-boggling to me that Israeli protesters go out to protest for democracy in an apartheid regime. The only way they can hold that contradiction is if they accept that Palestinian lives are absent or expendable. And so we have to understand this violence, which, again, is heart-wrenching, in that context."

France banned 'pro-Palestine' public protests? I can see UK trying it. Putin must be lhao.

??

Israel is paying YouTube to place adverts like this before videos aimed at children..

No words.... pic.twitter.com/QK6qa1s3Vl

— Lowkey (@Lowkey0nline) October 12, 2023

Wow. Paris after protests in solidarity with Palestine were banned by the government. https://t.co/K3aPvbhL4r

— Farah-Silvana Kanaan (@farahkanaan) October 12, 2023

Macron is a fucking idiot.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone so desperate to be Prime Minister.

Israeli defensive action against Hamas must not be used as an excuse to stir up hatred against Jews.

We’re giving @CST_UK an extra £3m to enhance the safety of the British Jewish community.

We stand against antisemitism. And we stand with Israel.

pic.twitter.com/xj9d0qgCNX

— Suella Braverman MP (@SuellaBraverman) October 12, 2023

Trump reportedly asking key pro-Israel allies if he can call for Netanyahu's 'immediate impeachment' after Hamas attacks https://t.co/x2BSSfrqVM

— Haaretz.com (@haaretzcom) October 12, 2023