Israel to World: "Suck It."

Honestly, a big part of me wonders why Israel doesn't just kill everyone in Gaza. Just start dropping bombs from one end to the other and don't stop until there's absolutely no one left. They have the weapons, they clearly have no moral compunctions about it, and it seems obvious to me that nobody will stop them beforehand or sanction them afterward. Can anyone explain what's keeping them from doing exactly that?

To torment the population

That's a thread I'd prefer not to pull at

One would like to imagine that humanity would someday evolve past the debate being on one hand massacring entire families and concert goers with automatic weapons, and on the other hand bombing entire communities into vaporized oblivion, but it's hard to imagine that will ever occur.

There is always the nonviolent resistance model, which I've periodically fantasized could be enacted effectively by the right Palestinian leadership. But there's a reason that there are only a couple of successful instances of that, it's extraordinarily difficult to sustain in the face of brutal oppression. And the Palestinians have not been particularly more blessed with extraordinary leadership than the Israelis have.

yeah i mean they've tried that for some time, in a lot of different ways, and gotten bombed and thrown in jail for their troubles. they've gone to the UN and been blocked by the US. they've demonstrated peacefully. they've gone to the international criminal courts.

multi-xps

I also feel deeply angry that such a tiny piece of land with such a tiny number of people on it continues to occupy this outsize space in global affairs, almost always in a bad and destructive way.

The sheer number of people competing for space and resources in that tiny piece of barren land far outstrips its ability to comfortably provide for them. That's a huge piece of the conflict that's not always an adequately acknowledged. Obviously Israel's 'policy of return' is a huge driver of that population pressure; but that policy sits at the very center of Israel identifying itself as a Jewish homeland and is not ever going to change. The prospect for any positive change looks bleak.

Yep. And Israel has cynically let small groups of terrorists drive events by being willing to scrap any peace process as soon as somebody sets off a bomb somewhere. There's been basically zero good-faith effort by Israel for more than a quarter-century.

if the leadership actually cared about security they would say shit like the actions of these outlaws will not make us waver from our commitment to lasting peace

but i'm just writing fan fiction about a regime that doesn't exist

there's also the fact that a lot of the settler movement people (many U.S. born) start a lot of shit, but are exempt from national service

Honestly, a big part of me wonders why Israel doesn't just kill everyone in Gaza.

I've wondered this too. I mean it's not that big an area. there are a lot of people but the actual space is like 25 x 6 miles. That's nothing. Clearly they could carpet bomb this if they wanted to. My guess is the only thing holding them back is that the world may not react very well to that.

Not to continue pulling that thread, but I'd imagine doing such would remove whatever tattered, worn thin veil of "respectability" they still have that allow the US (among others) to continually voice full-throated support.

Or, it'll give succour to the US to try the same elsewhere, given no one seems to give a flying fuck.

idk if it would tbh xp

probably not, true

Can anyone explain what's keeping them from doing exactly that?

Why on earth would they want to?

Why on earth would they want to?

Honestly? Think of the real estate boom (no pun intended) it would create in the region. Investors (including amoral rich fucks from every Arab country) would be lining up to buy condos on the beach in what used to be Gaza. And I genuinely don't believe the political blowback would be very much at all. A non-binding UN resolution of some sort. A few tearful speeches in Congress that would still end up pro-Israel. The party in charge might lose a few seats in the next election, but the country's general right-wing drift would continue if not accelerate. The more I think about it, the more it seems like a winning strategy. Except for the whole "becoming exactly the kind of genocidal regime that inspired the creation of the country in the first fucking place" thing, but honestly, does it feel like the judgment of history matters at this point?

Because:

- it would immediately incite retaliation from neighbouring Arab nations
- it would permanently end any possibility of peace with the West Bank
- it would be extremely unpopular with the vast majority of Israelis, who even at their most extreme views surely would never call themselves genocidal
- it is infinitely more elegant/elegant for Bibi to do as he has been doing, dissolving the West Bank and Golan Heights gradually while brazenly presenting future plans for a single Israeli state to the UN

This Hamas attack plays so heavily into Bibi’s favour, especially considering his recent extreme unpopularity (criminal investigations, protests about the proposed reform of the judiciary) that I won’t at all be surprised if, over the next year, we see an emergence of “Supernova was an inside job” conspiracy theories

Of course there'd be political blowback. Support is already weakening in the US and EU among the under-50s, regional states would be forced into open hostility with Israel - even MBS and Saudi Arabia wouldn't be able to keep moving toward normalization without risking uprisings.

I genuinely don't believe the political blowback would be very much at all.

Maybe not the USA, but worldwide there would be serious blowback. Among other things, the EU is a bigger trading partner of Israel than the USA and the EU isn't as supine on their behalf. Ofc, Islamic nations still control vast amounts of oil and can make the world very uncomfortable. Besides, they've had all the success they require through incrementalism and controlling the narrative to a large extent. Mass murder is not the narrative they want, however much they might desire Gaza and Hamas to simply vaporize.

it’s really not worth engaging with

This Hamas attack plays so heavily into Bibi’s favour, especially considering his recent extreme unpopularity (criminal investigations, protests about the proposed reform of the judiciary) that I won’t at all be surprised if, over the next year, we see an emergence of “Supernova was an inside job” conspiracy theories

― (the poster formerly known as Twitter) (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, 10 October 2023 21:54 (thirty-three minutes ago) link

No Israeli source I have looked at seems to agree that this is good for Bibi. I think people are mistakenly analogizing this to Bush and 9/11 when they think that way and it’s actually so completely different.

Yeah, the media is pointing to a whole bunch of anger within Israel on who exactly dropped the ball here, with regards to intelligence... especially since the attack fell on the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur war

That’s true: articles in both Haaretz and Al-J have highlighted what a massive security failure this is for him

unperson -- tbh a cursory understanding of israel's history would tell you that people w/in its government have understood from the beginning that its grand objective (total ownership of the arab state thru force) largely had to be achieved through violence that is carried out in shadows, behind closed doors etc. the same question you're posing -- why not just commit genocide? -- has been asked several times over, in different ways, w/in the israeli government throughout its history. for instance, why did israel never assassinate yasser arafat? they tracked his movements meticulously, knew when he was giving public speeches etc... so why didn't they just blow up one of his rallies to ensure his death even if it meant killing hundreds or thousands of innocent egyptians or palestinians that the israeli govt, abstractly speaking, wanted dead anyway? this was a question legitimately brought up w/in mossad in the 70s and 80s, i'm not being theoretical here. the answer is because israel (well, key power holders in the israeli govt) understood that arafat was perceived to be a legitimate head of state. and even if lots of ppl in the israeli govt believed that every second he lived resulted in the deaths of jews, israel needed to play by the rules in order to not attract the backlash of western governments. so they tried to kill him in various private and far less shocking ways that were unsuccessful. there were years long debates about whether it was worth it to covertly assassinate participants in the munich olympics attacks on western soil. i say this not to imply any moral grace on the part of the israeli govt, of course, but just to note that while your assumed nihilism on this topic is understandable given the stakes, it's been the position, internally debated for years, that a certain tact had to be employed by israel's killing machine if it was going to be allowed to stay killing.

it's been the position, internally debated for years, that a certain tact had to be employed by israel's killing machine if it was going to be allowed to stay killing

Yeah, I get that, but who is the current Arafat? Hamas has no leader with an equivalent public profile. And that's just one way in which things have changed. The current government of Israel is manifestly more fascist and criminal than pretty much any prior government. They really seem from the outside to be on a "let's just do it and be legends" death trip. Which is why I said what I said at first, that this really feels like suicide by cop on the part of Hamas. They struck a blow that they should/must have known would result in an overwhelmingly destructive response from Israel...and a response ranging from sorrowful apathy to outright cheering from the Western world.

Good (sigh) post J0rdan

that they should/must have known would result in an overwhelmingly destructive response from Israel

that was a key idea in The Battle of Algiers... committing acts of terror precisely to invite reprisal, which they know will be heavy handed and turn public opinion against the oppressor overlords, possibly attracting more support for their cause. However, I think murdering entire families in their homes is probably overplaying their hand, except in violently antisemitic circles

They really seem from the outside to be on a "let's just do it and be legends" death trip.

i do think it's important to understand that these people have always existed at the very highest levels of the israeli govt from the outset and been resisted on strategic grounds for many decades. again i'm not being abstract here... if you read about the history of mossad etc you'll find that there are pretty much always several people high up in the israeli govt who are like one or two degrees away from the red button whose entire goal in life is to have the red button be pushed. which isn't to say that it could never happen, just that the very discussion has animated the israel government since day 1

There are 2.6 million men, women and children in the Gaza Strip. Killing them all would be the greatest genocide since the Holocaust. I don't think anyone, not even the US, could be a cheerleader for that.

u&k

xp

my fucking FB wall is full of Van Horn Streets this week.

this entire idiotic fucking country is full of Van Horn Streets this week. i nearly threw my phone across the room reading the news this morning

The entire idiotic fucking country has been banned permanently.

but can post on The Church

The sheer number of people competing for space and resources in that tiny piece of barren land far outstrips its ability to comfortably provide for them.

Just have to say that this is an extremely weird take. There are less than 10 million people there, and there are a lot of resources

FWIW, the hardliners I personally know in life - by that I mean a few people I've gone to school with at different stages in life, and it even encompasses individuals who are otherwise very liberal - have repeated the same arguments as long as I can remember: that Palestinians are sworn to the destruction of the Jewish people, that they put it in their charter and therefore they can never be trusted, etc...in other words it's forever their life's mission. Even now they are saying it has nothing to do with rebelling, it's in line with what they've ALWAYS been after. It's really hopeless trying to reason with the hardliners - they've committed to be sworn enemies to people they will never make peace with because they will never trust them no matter how history turns, no matter how people evolve socially and culturally. And it's pretty fucking sad that I've come to see this view echoed over and over again against all Muslims by nutcase far-right Christians - to them, it might as well be the Crusades all over again. All it takes is a few, even just one bigoted asshole to make the world a shitshow.

*rebelling against any injustice done to them, it's only a continuation of the sworn destruction of Israel they've ALWAYS been after

I found out this woman Vivian Silver is a relative of mine - I didn't know her but she grew up with my mom. She's a Canadian citizen who is missing from the kibbutz Be'eri.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/revered-peace-activist-missing-sending-harrowing-text-message-hamas-as-rcna119475

She became a leader of Women Wage Peace, a grassroots organization made up of thousands of Arab and Jewish women seeking a resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

“I spent much time in Gaza until the outbreak of the second intifada. We continued working with organizations in the West Bank,” Silver wrote in the post. “That’s why it especially infuriates me when people claim: ‘We have no partner on the other side!’ I personally know so many Palestinians who yearn for peace no less than we do.”

Silver’s activism went beyond leading marches and rallies.

In addition to ferrying Gaza residents to Israeli hospitals for cancer treatments, her friends said, she also traveled to the border to make sure Arab laborers who worked at her kibbutz got paid during periods when they were barred from entering Israel.

committing acts of terror precisely to invite reprisal, which they know will be heavy handed and turn public opinion against the oppressor overlords, possibly attracting more support for their cause. However, I think murdering entire families in their homes is probably overplaying their hand, except in violently antisemitic circles

It might be, but just as Israel may have been having the "lets just be legends" debate outlined above, similar debates may have been happening inside Hamas as well? Especially if its true that top brass wasn't even informed (no idea how much store to put in that). Even the concept of overplaying a hand seems sort of out of time

And Hamas might also feel they were being sidelined, a lot of regional powers normalising relations with Israel, Saudi in particular imminently on the horizon. large numbers of Israeli tourists visiting Dubai. There's not just political opinion in the west to consider, there's also political opinion in the region, and they might have felt that was trending away from Palestine

How does Netanyahu possibly survive the acknowledgment that Israel had warning from Egypt? For an already fairly loathed leader, I just don't see how that isn't the end. (NB: I barely understand internal Israeli politics, so maybe there's a path there for him, but he's barely held on for a long time now.)

Perhaps that has been posted before, but it still bears repeating: half the population of Gaza are aged 19 or under.

I remember when this happened in 1973. Nothing but despondency since.

*sucks it*

It’s hard to imagine a more perfect encapsulation of the wicked role of the western media. As dozens & dozens of children are being massacred in Gaza, tomorrow’s headlines are unverified, evidence-free claims made by the very army that’s killing en masse in Gaza & lies routinely. pic.twitter.com/YdNry4CUoD

— Louis Allday (@Louis_Allday) October 10, 2023

Workers from Gaza who had Israeli working permits have been kicked out from their job with no wages, beaten up & had their money and phones stolen & left stranded at the military checkpoints, hundreds made it to Ramallah where they are being taken care by the residents. pic.twitter.com/uy7iuS7HmD

— Zaid 🧉 (@ZaidAmali) October 10, 2023

Interesting quote on what a one state solution could look like.

Noel Ignatiev laid out how simple and moderate a one-state solution could be, if only Israelis were willing to give up their special status and live as equals in a multi-ethnic, multi-lingual secular state. The refusal of this vision is the status quo.https://t.co/NEcDvBHiNY https://t.co/qx5HljJlQE pic.twitter.com/P5F4kaNzob

— Bathhouse Agitator (@gusselsprouts) October 9, 2023

Israel is of course using whatever propaganda it can. & getting support from a lot of sides including a number of liberal and I thought leftist podcasts.
The 2 Red Nation podcasts from Monday gave a really interesting alternative perspective. Including a history of how Palestinian representation has been progressively silenced. Red Nation is inherently anti settler-colonial to give perspective but it did sound pretty balanced. I've seen footage of Israelis complete disregard for the indigenous people of the area going back for decades.

I'm glad to hear that there is a resistance in Israel to completely swallowing its government's version of the narrative.
Continually struck with the idea that one should learn compassion and sympathy from one's oppression and Israel just seem to want to channel it onwards. So something eventually going to break.

like you don't take years or decades or centuries or whatever of being oppressed by one group of people and find some other group entirely to discharge it on. You shouldn't be punching down like.
Not sure that is a way of getting rid of trauma, seems to be just a way of creating it.

Struck deeply by the idea of neutral reporting not being something I'm hearing. But if you do take current situation as not being a l;ongterm process and just seeing oooh out of the blue something happened has a weight of its own.

Have just been hearing Chris Hayes coldly describing the Israeli preparations of armament which is expected to be going into Gaza in a way that doesn't view that as building things up further