Is this anti-semitism?

Lol otm

What movie? We're talking about the trailer!

Not sure where you are going with this but I think it's reasonable to ask at this point about the idea of it based on what people have seen of the official trailer that's currently out. A movie has obviously been made, and there are issues to be discussed other than cinematic merit.

Oh sorry, were you doing a bit? Lol I must be exasperating here

The idea of this movie seems inherently not promising, but it will be interesting to see how deep they go into Bernstein’s politics, especially the Black Panthers parties at his house.

Has anyone here ever met anyone who is actually offended by the prosthetic nose in the Bernstein pic?

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/18/opinions/bradley-cooper-leonard-bernstein-maestro-perry/index.html

otherwise I assume complaints are coming from Twitter/X, home of useless complaints about everything

Oh sorry, were you doing a bit? Lol I must be exasperating here

― felicity,

lol I wasn't clear either -- my fault.

Puddy, on the other hand, almost surely was not coded Jewish.

Cooper directing and starring in this is generally kind of a surprise - not what I expected from the guy who brought us American Sniper

(which, incidentally, is a fucking weird movie)

A really good friend of mine was born in Croatia. He moved here 40 years ago, when he was around 8 or so, but still of course has plenty of family back there, knows the language, and returns pretty often. Some months ago we were having dinner together, and I think I mentioned something about Croatia (I forget what) and his response was something similar, only about about Israel. And I was like, dude, what does Israel have to do with anything? I'm not from Israel and have no family there, but you *are* from Croatia, they're totally different. There was no malicious intent or animosity or anything so we just moved on to whatever else we were goofing on.

Fast forward a few months and we were heading somewhere together. He had just gotten back from visiting Croatia, and was super energized about reconnecting with his family there. And then he made an innocent comparison, saying something like it was probably akin to how I feel whenever I go back to Israel. And I was like, dude, I've been to Israel once, 35 years ago, and not since. I have no family there, I have no connection there, I'm not Israeli, I don't care about Israel. And then we move on.

Anyway. He's a great guy, he's not anti-semitic, but explicitly connecting Jewishness with Israel is ... kinda cousin to that, isn't it? Is this what people mean when they talk about micro-aggressions?

I mean, seeing as how the main Jewish political organizations in the US are intimately tied to Israel, I see how there could be some confusion from someone who doesn’t know many Jewish people. But yeah, feels weirdly pass-agg!

I would say so. Croatia according to my friend who’s Jewish and has spent a lot of the time in the area has largely unreconstructed antisemitic beliefs that are commonly held (though where isn’t that true of) and ofc a fairly grotesque history during WW2. There’s also a neo-fascist movement atm, but where isn’t there.

*Croatians

He's got family there, but he's Croatian by birth, not nationality. He's American, raised and educated in America, so he's not particularly old country himself, and I don't think his old country roots have anything to do with it. He knows plenty of Jews, went to an Ivy League school, works in banking (lol). That's kind of what I find so odd about it. Or maybe I'm just over inflating what the average person thinks or knows about Judaism, however innocently.

elements in the israeli state of course are eager to convince everyone to be antisemitic in precisely this way so i try to cut people who've accidentally bought into it a little personal slack

still, not listening to you or remembering what you say is a bad sign, especially when what keeps overruling you in his head seems to be the idea that everybody has a mystical genetic relationship to some soil somewhere and you can look up where in a chart-- this idea is bad for the jews and for other living things-- but it is believed so ambiently across such a wide political spectrum that he is prob just an addled liberal trying to be enthusiastic about his friend's identity. think you're on solid ground pushing back sharper next time esp if you guys are close, the way you would about anything you kept saying and he kept not listening to.

there was a billboard down the road from my house for some Jewish roots group, that said something like "we don't care which half of you is Jewish!" and had some URL.. fine, I noticed it but didn't really think about it

The next billboard, from the same org, said something like "anti-Israel = anti=semitism" - which I know is pointed squarely at Bay Area liberals... I get so sick of that false equivalency, it seems to be growing

I just wanted to say that the only people I saw even talking about the Bradley Cooper’s prosthetic nose were non-Jewish liberals who reshape Occupy Democrats on Facebook

I haven't managed to comment on the nose yet, but not because it doesn't bother me. Rather, it does bother me, but in a variety of ways too complicate for me to articulate easily, and just the thought of trying to do so is stressful so I avoid it.

My main issue with it comes down to this: when you are dealing with an ethnicity that has certain distinctive physical features, and you cast someone not of that ethnicity and then use makeup or prosthetics to imitate those features, it's not cool. Jews shouldn't be an exception to that rule, and I wonder why people can so easily make us an exception. I think part of it has to do with people's inability to grasp that "Jewish" can be both a religion and an ethnicity. People think "Oh, it's just a religion; anyone can be Jewish, so we can cast anyone." Well, sure, but if it's just a religion, then why is it a religion whose adherents are known for having big noses, and why do you feel the need to slap a big old fake nose on Bradley Cooper so he can play someone who believes in it?

And then there's the fact that this keeps happening, most noticeably in Mrs. Maisel, where you have a whole group of people who are supposed to be ethnically Jewish, played by actors who are not. And as someone whose entire Jewish identity comes from heritage, not religion, and who looks fairly typically Jewish, I don't like having someone who's supposed to look like me represented by a generic-looking pretty blonde woman with her hair dyed dark brown. I don't like the implication that Jews who look Jewish aren't pretty enough: the sense of "We want Jewish, but not too Jewish" that comes through in the casting of Rachel Brosnahan and now of Bradley Cooper. I don't like that being Jewish is being approached the way being ugly was in that Charlize Theron movie - gee, we'd love to cast a high-wattage movie star who looks the part, but we just aren't swimming in movie stars who look like this, so we'd better cast this pretty person and ugly them up for the role. And I don't like how much this is eroding people's already shaky awareness that ethnic Jews exist at all.

"And then there's the fact that this keeps happening"

people have made the argument that it isn't problematic for goys to play Jewish characters, but even if so that doesn't mean they have to do it every time.

Re Seinfeld coding there’s a gag about Elaine never having seen a foreskin but I tend to forget that’s just America in general. Also that weird bit in the ep where George is trying to convert to Latvian orthodox & the priest makes a huge deal about George pronouncing it “fadda”, it’s prob just a “what is a yoot” throwaway but the way it’s played is as an accidental tell, like his accent would disqualify him somehow

Sticking this here again, because I had honestly never thought about this stuff at all until Silverman posted this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3g3N-b2Hb4

I had forgotten that it was prompted by news that Kathryn Hahn (not Jewish) had been cast to play Joan Rivers (very Jewish) in a biopic (since tabled).

Silverman, as Felicity noted, is in Maestro, as Bernstein's sister Shirley.

My main issue with it comes down to this: when you are dealing with an ethnicity that has certain distinctive physical features, and you cast someone not of that ethnicity and then use makeup or prosthetics to imitate those features, it's not cool. Jews shouldn't be an exception to that rule, and I wonder why people can so easily make us an exception. I think part of it has to do with people's inability to grasp that "Jewish" can be both a religion and an ethnicity. People think "Oh, it's just a religion; anyone can be Jewish, so we can cast anyone." Well, sure, but if it's just a religion, then why is it a religion whose adherents are known for having big noses, and why do you feel the need to slap a big old fake nose on Bradley Cooper so he can play someone who believes in it?

The thing that separates the Cooper/Bernstein movie from the broader phenomenon you're discussing is that Cooper is not just the star of this movie — he also produced and directed it, and co-wrote the screenplay. It's his project, top to bottom.

Does he wear a fake bottom, too?

Thanks for all the recent posts. I think Lily Dale and Sarah Silverman have both touched on something that has been the source of a lot of unarticulated discomfort for me over the years. I never noticed that non-Jews often play female Jewish characters if something good happens to them, but I totally believe her.

When a supposed physical characteristic of Jewish people has been exaggerated with undeniably malicious intention in caricatures, political propaganda, pseudoscience, etc. over the years, even the supposed well-intentioned use of a false nose to play a Jewish person feels like an "eye rolly" moment of the type that Sarah Silverman describes here.

The whole Maestro nose thing just makes me anxious, like when Raja used a prosthetic nose to play Diana Vreeland on Snatch Game in Rupauls's Drag Race All Stars. It was distracting and unnecessary. And I still love Raja, btw.

I also think the nose thing is funny, just an insanely silly bad taste thing to do, so part of my Jewish identity is glad that it happened, because it’s a good story.

It's unreal in how off the mark it is, like a bit from Tropic Thunder.

From which . . . apparently Tom Cruise and Chris McQuarrie still think a Les Grossman spinoff movie is a good idea? And they credit Tropic Thunder with reviving Cruise's flagging career? So weird.

there are so many things around the tropic thunder movie that i do not understand. the meta-thunder

Time Magazine's Stephanie Z weighs in:

Bradley Cooper both directed and stars in the picture, which has already courted some controversy over the prosthetic nose he chose to wear for the role. (Bernstein was Jewish; Cooper is not.) Some have seen Cooper’s choice as anti-Semitic, though Bernstein’s children, and the Anti-Defamation League, have defended it. On the quieter side of the argument are those who simply find a fantastic honker insanely attractive. Cooper’s nose is perfectly fine, but Bernstein had a great, distinctive, sexy one. If you’re playing a character who was wildly alluring, to both men and women, why wouldn’t you want to emphasize one of his most distinguishing features?

"fantastic honker"

My better half is on board with that. She thinks Adrien Brody is the sexiest man alive.

Seems strange to keep pushing this argument when a number of Jewish posters itt have expressed discomfort with it.

(To be clear, I'm not agreeing with her and I think this movie is going to annoy me more than any other this Oscar season.)

Fantastic Honkers (and Where to Find Them)

I don't mind Zacharek's take apart from the disingenuous "On the quieter side of the argument are those..." instead of, like, "Meanwhile here's my thirsty two cents..."

I'm a not very hot, in fact quite an ugly bassa with a quite large arabic looking nose. I like it because it makes me feel and look less British. I inherited it from my mum who hated her big nose so much she used to scratch it off in all the family photo albums.

Love a prominent nose. Rhinoplasty should be banned.

I also love big noses. Small noses are fine too, but it's sad to see people think they need to be the default. Noses are such a point of natural character. I could see wanting a rhinoplasty if it was very deformed, or if they had trouble breathing, but the problem is that people think that prominent=deformed. Mine isn't too big, I don't think, but it's always been a little crooked. Idgaf.

thanks to Lily Dale for that post

Yes, extremely good post.

Musk's sudden war on the ADL seems like a much better topic for discussion here than prosthetic schnozes. So...

Except that we don't really have to ask "is this anti-semitism" about it.

lol exactly

Another one for the "not really a question" file...

I know where I'll be and what I'll be watching at 6:00 pm EASTERN time today! pic.twitter.com/PdjwJ5ZTbZ

— Cynthia McKinney PhD (@cynthiamckinney) September 11, 2023

Haven't thought about Cynthia McKinney in a long time but I guess she just kept going down the rabbit hole huh.

yeah I guess when you find yourself publicly checking in at the David Duke event, you're not trying to hide anything

just took a gander at her full twitter feed and it's antisemitism all the way down (when she isn't scarfing down whatever other conspiracy theory crosses her path, e.g. cissy houston was not really whitney's mother). she's far gone

She used to be my representative. She used to be crazy like a fox, now she's just crazy.

"She is currently a professor in Political Science at North South University in Bangladesh"