Is this anti-semitism?

Anyway, the fact that the Jewishness of the "Seinfeld" characters is mostly conveyed through mannerisms and affect (themselves kind of interchangeable with "New York") has lead some people to conclude that the entire cast is Jewish, too (Julia Louis-Dreyfus is not).

I remember as a kid that I'd thought all the main characters in Seinfeld were supposed to be Jewish, until the 'shiksappeal' episode, which hinges on Elaine not being Jewish (same episode as 'serenity now', which I'd forgotten). There are a few other episodes where Jewishness is explicit - the bris episode, the one where Jerry's dentist converts to Judaism, I think they're mostly a bit later on in the run of the series, maybe they felt more able to do that when the show was an established success?

Um, Michael Anthony Richards is also not Jewish

Sometimes it does feel like the whole outer-boro Jewish-Italian thing merged into a new ethnicity, and I've met people from other ethnicities that kind of code this way too, e.g. an Indian-descent Queens born and raised neighbor of mine who was raised in Queens and reminded me so much of Jewish relatives.

JLD is, distantly, related to the Alfred Dreyfus of the Dreyfus Affair.

yeah, I remember finding out Elaine was supposedly not Jewish. Come on, man.

Though JLD has always identified as Christian.

Michael Anthony Richards is also not Jewish

lol, kinda my point exactly!

I interviewed Ray Romano years ago, and he said this:

What’s funny is that you have George’s parents Italian, and they couldn’t be more Jewish. My parents are Italian, and they could *easily* be Jewish. Which, by the way, is the same thing. Italian … Jewish … the same neurotic mother. It doesn’t matter.

yeah, I remember finding out Elaine was supposedly not Jewish. Come on, man.

― hardcore technician gimmicks are also another popular choice f (President Keyes), Friday, August 18, 2023 8:00 AM bookmarkflaglink

Sorry, I don't understand. What does this mean?

All of the Seinfeld characters code as Jewish to me. It just seemed like they said Elaine was not Jewish so the show would not be "too Jewish."

I see. So "come on, man" as when codes or biases are subverted there is cognitive dissonance?

There's a lot to unpack there, and I think that is the discussion being had right now, but I want to make sure I understand.

I would not say anything was being subverted, rather that presumed audience prejudices were being catered to.

Though JLD has always identified as Christian.

I'm now kind of wondering if Julia Louis-Dreyfus has ever played a character that has expressly self-identified as Jewish. Selena Meyer in Veep is not Jewish, and I've haven't ever watched The New Adventures of Old Christine.

On the other extreme, I found it kind of wild at first that all four main German Nazi leads in Hogan's Heroes were played by Jewish actors. Apparently Werner Klemperer only agreed to play Colonel Klink on the condition that the character's schemes must always be foiled and said, "Who can play Nazis better than us Jews?"

it's mad that just about all the main nazis are played by Jews in that one. Also a Jewish actor playing a Nazi during the war: Jack Benny in To Be or Not To Be.

The German actor and Nazi specialist, Conrad Veidt wasn't Jewish, but was married to a Hungarian Jew and in all his official Nazi Germany paperwork he filled out his race as Jewish.

I suppose a lot of actors with German accents showed up in the US/UK because of the Nazis so lots of work for them playing Nazis!

To Be or Not To Be (1942) - that's a good one. Talk about acting like your life depended on it!

Anton Walbrook was another famous example, he got the fuck out of Austria quickfast because he was a half Jewish and gay actor, double peril!

Otto Preminger was another Jewish refugee who ended up playing a nazi in Stalag 17.xpost

Anton Walbrook was another famous example, he got the fuck out of Austria quickfast because he was a half Jewish and gay actor, double peril!

Anton Diffring - who made a very convincing Nazi I must say - was also half Jewish and gay.

I can’t 100% remember but I don’t think Jack Benny plays a nazi in TBONTB - he just disguises himself as one (for heroic reasons)

you may be right, it's a while since I saw it

Although of course

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmzPnpn63nA

Of course the Jewish elephant in the room, and relevant to the discussion, is the long running trend of Jewish actors changing their names. Granted, lots of actors use stage names, but Jewish actors seem to do it to disguise, or at least neutralize, their Jewishness, which really underscores the ongoing power plays and dynamics (and antisemitism) at work when it comes to being perceived as Jewish. Jewish actor Jason Alexander isn't just playing an Italian character that is coded Jewish, the actor born Jay Greenspan is essentially also playing himself as Jason Alexander, an actor coded not (or less) Jewish.

Right - similarly my grandfather had to change his name during the war, from something indescribably Polish to “Wilson” (don’t get caught behind enemy lines with a Jewish name, was the idea). But the name change stuck and was considered good for business in the 40s and 50s and then it just stuck forever. Recently I tried to “re-Jew” our family names by naming my daughter after some of the Polish family (and my French middle name comes from a second cousin who was killed in the camps young). Ironically despite the re-Jewing we’re barely Jewish in a devotional sense.

Yes, and how such deliberate coding was satirized through Donna Chang (nee Changstein) in "the Chinese Woman" in Seinfeld and by Swedish lawyer Berg in Curb.

Getting back to Maestro, that Mark Harris piece from Slate that Alfred quoted from mentions that Bradley Cooper can’t speak for himself because of the SAG-AFTRA strike. If the Bernstein children say they are happy, then I guess I'm happy for them? I'm reminded of the old show-biz adage "No such thing as bad publicity." I'll reserve judgment unless I watch the film, which I would only be spite-watching, since there are a lot of better films I still need to see.

I also hadn't realized that Sarah Silverman is in the cast. Or that Tracy-Ann Oberman who gave that quote about Elephant Man plays "Auntie" Val from Friday Night Dinner. This thread has been full of surprises. Is nothing as it seems?!

Wait why have we decided this movie is bad apart from the nose thing?

Sorry, "better" was a poor choice of words. Good catch. What I meant is I have little attention span for movies lately. Also I no longer have Netflix and won't be renewing during the strike.

So if I did move Maestro to the head of the queue it would be out of curiosity over this. But there's no reason you would have known that from my post. My bad.

Wait why have we decided this movie is bad apart from the nose thing?

Because it's a biopic directed by its star and those are traditionally dismal?

yeah, I remember finding out Elaine was supposedly not Jewish. Come on, man.

― hardcore technician gimmicks are also another popular choice f (President Keyes), Friday, August 18, 2023 10:00 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

just want to say that i don't think it's necessarily a widespread perception that Elaine is a jew or very nearly so. but i'm a gentile from the midwest

Tracy-Ann Oberman is one of the celebrity toxifiers of the UK "discussion" about antisemitism

Appreciate the context.

Awful woman.

just want to say that i don't think it's necessarily a widespread perception that Elaine is a jew or very nearly so.

Now, see, I don't know how widespread it is, but for sure her *appearance* conforms to Jewish stereotypes. Toss in the context (the show, the setting) and it does get the heart of how much of Judaism often remains the sum of how Jews are perceived/portrayed.

One of my favorite twists on this is that Rachel Sennott, star of "Shiva Baby," is not Jewish, and neither (I assume?) is her married love interest, Danny Deferrari, but Deferrari's conspicuously blonde non-Jew wife *is* played by a Jewish actor, Dianna Agron.

_Wait why have we decided this movie is bad apart from the nose thing?_

Because it's a biopic directed by its star and those are traditionally dismal?

Lol, Spacey

Forgotten but not gone

Has anyone here ever met anyone who is actually offended by the prosthetic nose in the Bernstein pic? Because I wasn't even aware there was a Bernstein biopic until I saw clickbait about how I shouldn't be offended because Bernstein's kids said it was ok, and I don't think I would have even given it a second thought otherwise. I don't care much for Bradley Cooper and biopics are always terrible but I can't imagine it would have occurred to me to find it "antisemitic" that he tried to make himself look more like the real life individual I assume he is favorably portraying.

I doubt I would have noticed anything amiss. I may not have even noticed the movie existed. At the same time I feel that Jews, like a lot of minorities, are so used to shrugging off micro-aggressions that I honestly doubt many are even making a stink about it. But arguing and discussing *after* someone has broached the subject? What self-respecting Jew would avoid a debate?

Lol otm

What movie? We're talking about the trailer!

Not sure where you are going with this but I think it's reasonable to ask at this point about the idea of it based on what people have seen of the official trailer that's currently out. A movie has obviously been made, and there are issues to be discussed other than cinematic merit.

Oh sorry, were you doing a bit? Lol I must be exasperating here

The idea of this movie seems inherently not promising, but it will be interesting to see how deep they go into Bernstein’s politics, especially the Black Panthers parties at his house.

Has anyone here ever met anyone who is actually offended by the prosthetic nose in the Bernstein pic?

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/18/opinions/bradley-cooper-leonard-bernstein-maestro-perry/index.html

otherwise I assume complaints are coming from Twitter/X, home of useless complaints about everything

Oh sorry, were you doing a bit? Lol I must be exasperating here

― felicity,

lol I wasn't clear either -- my fault.

Puddy, on the other hand, almost surely was not coded Jewish.

Cooper directing and starring in this is generally kind of a surprise - not what I expected from the guy who brought us American Sniper

(which, incidentally, is a fucking weird movie)

A really good friend of mine was born in Croatia. He moved here 40 years ago, when he was around 8 or so, but still of course has plenty of family back there, knows the language, and returns pretty often. Some months ago we were having dinner together, and I think I mentioned something about Croatia (I forget what) and his response was something similar, only about about Israel. And I was like, dude, what does Israel have to do with anything? I'm not from Israel and have no family there, but you *are* from Croatia, they're totally different. There was no malicious intent or animosity or anything so we just moved on to whatever else we were goofing on.

Fast forward a few months and we were heading somewhere together. He had just gotten back from visiting Croatia, and was super energized about reconnecting with his family there. And then he made an innocent comparison, saying something like it was probably akin to how I feel whenever I go back to Israel. And I was like, dude, I've been to Israel once, 35 years ago, and not since. I have no family there, I have no connection there, I'm not Israeli, I don't care about Israel. And then we move on.

Anyway. He's a great guy, he's not anti-semitic, but explicitly connecting Jewishness with Israel is ... kinda cousin to that, isn't it? Is this what people mean when they talk about micro-aggressions?

I mean, seeing as how the main Jewish political organizations in the US are intimately tied to Israel, I see how there could be some confusion from someone who doesn’t know many Jewish people. But yeah, feels weirdly pass-agg!

I would say so. Croatia according to my friend who’s Jewish and has spent a lot of the time in the area has largely unreconstructed antisemitic beliefs that are commonly held (though where isn’t that true of) and ofc a fairly grotesque history during WW2. There’s also a neo-fascist movement atm, but where isn’t there.

*Croatians