Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

those articles do leave everything the same! that's what I'm trying to say - I can't see the big difference between articles like that and symposia on how to be mindful of your privilege as a man, and how to be a good ally etc, so I don't understand why somebody would disapprove of the former but approve of the latter

I can't see the big difference between articles like that and symposia on how to be mindful of your privilege as a man

Because the one reinforces assumptions and the other challenges them? (Not saying that symposia are necessarily a great idea either, it kind of depends on the content.)

I don't think you need to approve of symposiums of any kind to want to abolish gender! You can reduce "being a good ally" to introspective self-analysis but there's all sorts of deeds, not words, that come into it, from simple speaking up at moments of bigotry through to organising, volunteer work, direct action, etc.

Still it seems like your initial take wasn't "none of this creates material change" but rather "finding a positive defintion of masculinity could be useful" so I'm a bit ??? at this pivot.

Still it seems like your initial take wasn't "none of this creates material change" but rather "finding a positive defintion of masculinity could be useful" so I'm a bit ??? at this pivot.

I'm not sure if finding a positive definition of masculinity would be useful or not, but it's more that I don't see an obvious difference between finding a positive definition of masculinity and the how to be a feminist ally stuff aside from semantics, but my thinking on this is confused and I don't think I'm capable of articulating it very well anyway, so I'll leave it there. Apologies to those who found all this annoying

This post isn't be a direct response to anything or anyone immediately preceding it, but rather is my attempt to step back and gather my thoughts on the subject.

Most of the ideas of masculinity expressed by the contributors to that WaPo article, when they are considered in isolation, are worthwhile attributes and valuable traits when they are applied in their proper context. On the whole these men are attempting to define an idealized set of virtues, like courage, honesty, humility, good judgment, reliability, tenderness, accessibility and the like, then identifying these as the ideals that they, as men, would like to embody.

I think we should acknowledge they really are doing their best, in a confused and unhelpful society, to understand that basic "to be a good man just be a good person" idea. I don't think they should be faulted or dismissed for failing to see the hidden pitfalls in the question they were invited to answer. It's obvious to most of us here that those pitfalls can and do lead to very bad consequences, easily typified by such crap artists as Jordan Peterson.

"The very question of what constitutes ideal masculinity is, at best, a fool’s errand and, at worst, dangerous. It also might lie at the heart of why we are losing young men to cults of toxic masculinity. The minute you define this false ideal, you are falsely defining those who don’t meet the ideal. — Craig Culp, 63, Gaithersburg, Md."

This old guy knows the score, but this one brief quote doesn't go far enough to untangle the process and identify where the danger lies. I'd identify the biggest trap as the fact that all those admirable virtues listed by the men in that article are inherent in specific human actions, not in categories of people or states of being. The moment you identify these virtues as a property of an abstract category such as masculinity (or religious affiliation or sexual orientation or...) you're irrevocably moving into nonsense and worse.

The effect of thinking in nonsense is bad enough, because it leads to confusion that can't be resolved until you recognize and abandon the false premise that led you into nonsense. That's the "fool's errand" piece of it.

Just as often the "at worst, dangerous" consequence emerges from the strong human tendency to binary and oppositional thinking. Even if the majority of the men in the article, when asked, would deny thinking that women can't have courage, good judgment or the other virtues they were naming, by claiming those virtues as part of 'masculinity' they're unconsciously setting up an opposite category into which all 'un-masculine' people belong, the members of which lack the masculine qualities of courage or good judgment. The next step is simple enough, which is that the more virtuous masculine people should have power and precedence over the less virtuous and therefore sadly inferior, un-masculine people.

As a sidebar, this oppositional formula often sets up a harrowing anxiety among young men that they may actually be among the un-masculine inferiors, because the ideal that is "masculinity" is basically an unachievable state of being. The most toxic path to resolving that anxiety is to substitute conventional signifiers of masculinity for those ideal virtues listed in the WaPo article, allowing one to proclaim one's masculinity, and by proxy, one's greater virtue and worthiness to social precedence. It's the consumer version of masculinity and capitalism is thrilled to cater to it.

I know there's much more to be said about all these toxic social misconceptions, but I think for me this covers the basics of the question.

This is what every group of guy friends thinks they look like when they go out pic.twitter.com/2dTMZgAobn

— socialist sopranos memes (@gabagoolmarx) August 17, 2023

"big solution to male loneliness epidemic just there" - locked account

i think more people should give cat ownership a chance. so many cuties looking for a good home.

— big cp 🪩💋 (@theBKbelle) August 18, 2023

juxtaposing whiteness and masculinity makes for an interesting point: whiteness, at least in the culture I’ve lived in, is inherently exclusionary. there’s no “congrats, you’re white now” award, but acceptance as white means you’ve jettisoned certain ethnic or cultural signifiers, or those pieces have been absorbed into culture at large. with the huge caveat that you have to visually pass as white

many of the takes on masculinity also are inherently exclusionary, but there are “bad” masculinities according to the toxic arbiters of the term that usually involve racism and homophobia. your masculinity has to code as white and straight. the number of things I’ve heard over my lifetime that have been tagged as not-manly is absurdly high, and contradictory over time. not so much of a shift of the goalposts, but a constant churn to redefine in-groups versus out-groups

This survey is doing the rounds today

What makes men uncomfortable?

Being naked in a men's changing room: 49%
Crying in front of male friends: 48%
Saying "I love you" to a male relative: 45%
Going to a gay bar: 44%
Putting sunscreen on a male friend's back: 42%
Sharing a bed with a male friend: 42%
Wearing pink: 31% pic.twitter.com/Avl8y9Doqq

— YouGov (@YouGov) September 8, 2023

I would like to join in with the fun, but all interactions with people make me uncomfortable.

first one is the only one I feel uncomfortable with, but I also have discomfort being naked in front of anybody of any gender identification because I think I'm coarse and ugly

my best friend and I tell each other we love each other all the time, it's great and more people should do this

No thanks to naked & crying, everything else is nbd

It was a revelation to find out that most other people don't have a mini panic attack from simply seeing someone they know in the street, still not sure what to do with this knowledge though.

not particularly comfortable spreading suncream on anyone elses back tbh but i mean it doesnt come up that often in Ireland

Camaraderie I actually do if they're someone I know but not well because my brain wants to overanalyze the level of engagement I'm supposed to give

not particularly comfortable spreading suncream on anyone elses back tbh but i mean it doesnt come up that often in Ireland

― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac),

Try it sometime. You'll get a woody.

timely advice given the admission that "it doesnt come up often in Ireland"

feel like that was the joke

did u now

straight men should learn to love themselves and each other and maybe even kiss a guy or two, then there’ll be world peace

Nudity burns my eyes - I'm very awkward with it. My son is the opposite. One day at college he got very wet in the pond and while they were drying his clothes he refused to wear anything they offered him. Because of autism sensory issues he will only wear the same brand plus size trackie bottoms he has been wearing for years now. So the mainly female staff had a 22 year old man wondering about campus naked problem. In the end they managed to persuade him to wear some Roman style toga from the theatre costume wardrobe while his clothes were dried!

i'm weird w/ nudity when I'm not expecting it. for instance I had one friend who I only barely know from karaoke nights and stuff and one day she randomly posts a nude of herself from the back on FB and I felt real awkward because it paradoxically felt invasive, like I wasn't supposed to have seen that, even though they obviously publicly posted it.

I've gone a couple times to a gay glamping site with nude pool swimming and was surprisingly okay with it.

lads

Sprayable sunblock is both a blessing and a curse.

I have a pink plaid shirt but it's like a skinhead/Ben Sherman shirt so I feel pretty tough in it

most of these i think i'm unanxious about (i mean crying would be a lil embarrassing but it's not like i'm gonna refuse to watch jurassic park with other people) but "i love you" to anyone of any gender except romantic partners OR large groups is v difficult lol

I'm fine with "love you, brother" but looking a buddy in the eyes and saying "I LOVE YOU" would be kinda weird, yeah

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/020103f9-35f8-417f-b603-e7db9988abe1

unsurprisingly, i don’t feel uncomfortable with any of these.

I feel uncomfortable even clicking on this thread

My dad says "I love you" all the time; I'm the one who hesitates.

I say "I love you" to male friends, straight and gay.

I feel uncomfortable even clicking on this thread

― fair but so uncool beliefs here (Eric H.)

It could only have been your natural timidity that stopped you.

some of these poll respondents may need to just.... man up

It could only have been your natural timidity that stopped you.
― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, September 8, 2023 12:14 PM

It's obvious you're not a woman.

I'd be curious to see the results for "being naked in a women's changing room"

I’m honestly surprised those numbers aren’t worse - less than half having negative feelings about those situations is a much better than result than I would’ve guessed.

Unrelated to the current discussion but I only just learned that testosterone doesn’t cause/increase aggression, but rather reinforces social status behaviors, good and bad.

would you mind sharing where you learned that?

That poll could just as easily have been posted into the 'Irrationally Embarrassed' thread. I can see where it's all too easy to conflate "maleness and masculinity" with the standards and taboos inflicted upon men in our own society, if only because masculinity is a social construct masquerading as a universal. But just as the USA is not the world, many of these artifacts of our personal acculturation have only an accidental association with maleness and masculinity.

"being naked in a women's changing room"

Primitive Radio Gods iirc

That poll could just as easily have been posted into the 'Irrationally Embarrassed' thread. I can see where it's all too easy to conflate "maleness and masculinity" with the standards and taboos inflicted upon men in our own society, if only because masculinity is a social construct masquerading as a universal. But just as the USA is not the world, many of these artifacts of our personal acculturation have only an accidental association with maleness and masculinity.

Agree with this 100%. Would love to know more in general about manifestations of masculinity around the world — I remember watching an Indian-Canadian comedian talking about going to India and seeing pairs of male friends walking down the street holding hands.

I'm wearing a pink shirt right now

I'm wearing a pink shirt right now

As am I.

I can’t tell what color my shirt is due to the aura of my ball tanning device class action lawsuit.exe

Me, crying, naked in the men’s changing room below the gay bar, having removed my pink clothes, while applying sunscreen on the back of a man with whom I reluctantly share a bed: “l love you”

it's really surprising to me that, according to this poll, women are far more uncomfortable than men w/ being nude in a locker room. i would've thought those numbers would be flipped. my hypothesis is that because women don't have penises that need comparison, the appeal of being naked in front of others of the same sex doesn't hold the same appeal that it does for men.

i'm now thinking about how i was at wi spa in LA (korean spa that separates by gender & then enforces nudity) last saturday afternoon and there were so many guys there -- the majority of them straight, in my perception -- that you had to queue to get into the sauna and steam rooms at points

4% of men being uncomfortable dining with a same-gender friend at a restaurant. that's comedic levels of panic.

i really wanna have dinner w/ each of those respondents

not particularly comfortable spreading suncream on anyone elses back tbh but i mean it doesnt come up that often in Ireland

― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac),

Try it sometime. You'll get a woody.

― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

do they even have those in ireland? i only know them from old beach boys songs

male friends walking down the street holding hands

this used to be much more common in the west as well iirc