HBO's Succession - Season 2 and Beyond

Doesn't Greg still have secret copies of Tom's cruise boat coverup?

this is what I was thinking after the slapfight and Tom telling Greg he'd fuck it but leaking the news of Shiv's ouster. he didn't have to use it, but I'm guessing he'll keep it in his back pocket for the years to come.

surprised at how confused people were by the ken/rome hug. i had the same read as CAD mentioned upthread. when roman was looking at himself saying he didn't look that bad, why couldn't it have been him, he was saying what other people would think, ken understood and reopens his wound to make the explanation for why he couldn't be the face more apparent. appropriately, he does end up being the wounded face of waystar-royco anyway when he accepts being in the deal signing photo

I really thought it was Ken just straight up bullying Roman into submission somewhat but happy to admit I found it a confusing scene (including Roman's comments about how he looked wrt suitability for the role).

As others have said I thought the hug was powerful because it wasn't just one thing, it was all of them — it was an assertion of dominance and affection at the same time, with pain as the price. A very Logan-esque move by Ken, repeating learned behavior that he's been on the receiving end of.

Man, there are some tremendously bad takes out there. I follow this guy on Twitter, he's written some pretty insightful and funny recaps and power rankings throughout the show's run. But I just don't know how he landed on such a bad, and wrong, take on the finale (there's a whole thread, but these are some of the choice one):

Just had to get that off my chest. I literally had trouble sleeping last night I was so annoyed at the ending of this otherwise great show, but the finale was so bad the show is dead to me.

— scary lawyerguy (@scarylawyerguy) May 29, 2023

If you wanted an ending where Ken once more whiffs, there were other ways to do it, but the problem I had with it was the actions of the characters made no sense in relation to how they'd acted for 38 full episodes and 9/10ths of the finale.

— scary lawyerguy (@scarylawyerguy) May 29, 2023

Some people don't know how to watch TV and film, like just excruciatingly unable to assess character and plot.

and they’re all on twitter

I was annoyed by the theory that Tom was named after 1920s baseball player Bill Wambsganss (who made an unassisted triple play, do you see?!), so I was glad to see that Frank Rich debunked it:

“I hate to spoil the internet’s fun, but it’s false,” Frank Rich, an executive producer of Succession, told me in an email. “Tom’s family name was picked before we had shot a first season”—the Succession pilot was made in 2016—“let alone mapped out precise story twists that would culminate 39 episodes later! Not to mention that many of the key writers on the show, starting with its creator, Jesse [Armstrong], are British, live in London, and are devoted to British football.”

Rich, a New York magazine writer-at-large and former New York Times columnist, added that the source for Tom’s last name is a typical one in screenwriting: A Succession staff member had a relative named Wambsgans. “If memory serves,” Rich said, “we were looking for something off-key that would be awkward to say/pronounce, befitting a character who arrives as an outsider in the Roys’ world.”

I know that some people on the internet like to scrutinize any popular work of art for clues and hidden meanings. And some artists/creators do encourage those kinds of readings. But Succession really doesn't seem like that kind of show.

I think he has a fair point about the inconsistency but “show is dead to me” is instant ejector seat

What a season this was. The first couple episodes felt a little slow but in retrospect did a great job setting up the rest of the season. The momentum carried all the way through to the end. It's so rare to see a show nail its ending on all fronts so well

and they’re all on twitter

Honestly I didn't see anything "inconsistent" in the finale. Just because you don't like a character's decision, that doesn't automatically make it "inconsistent".

it was a perfect ending imo, the americans still the greatest series finale of all time tho

I feel if you watched the ending, where everyone pulls deep from their behaviour over the past four seasons and acts completely in character with their known motivations and weaknesses, and then decided this was “inconsistent”, you might not be very good at following television.

it was a perfect ending imo, the americans still the greatest series finale of all time tho

a hundred times this

I’m glad I don’t have to watch another breakdown scene involving these nothing people

^^^^^^^^^^^

even tho their mom's house was a "dump" and had no food in the fridge can you imagine not wanting to hang out there for weeks and/or find a place nearby to hang vs. going back to the board meeting

i don't think the finale is above criticism (i wouldn't have minded a couple minutes less of clearly improvised sibling tomfoolery in the kitchen) but it was a logical, satisfying ending and didn't fall for any of the "we need to have a big mind-blowing finale" pitfalls. i like that there's a fair amount of ambiguity still as to why certain big decisions were made.

the greg-tom stuff in the finale was a lot of fun. tom seemed so much more upset about greg betraying him than about his relationship with shiv. the slap fight was good and the sticker on the forehead was the big LOL moment for me.

Shiv got blasted by all kinds of misogyny but the implication from right before the marriage was that she had tried her hand in democratic politics and some people thought "Hmm, daughter from the Roy family has some juice, maybe she can help our team" but that wasn't going anywhere quickly enough for her. So she marries Tom as part of a way to get her foot in the door at Waystar RoyCo from Tom's ATN connection.

And at the end, she's the wife of the head of ATN. I'm eliding a lot of the rollercoaster here, but marrying Tom always seemed like a cynical ploy on both their parts, even if he was genuinely fond of her.

xp I'd like to hang out at mom's house if I were them, but you'd have to put up with Peter and Jonathan!

This is probably a dumb moment not meant to be symbolic, but Roman's seen drinking a whisky fairly often in the series, just like dear old dad, but he's just sitting there numb at the end with... a martini

Could be symbolic... IIRC it's Gerri's favorite drink?

Based on my friend's extensive Roman/Gerri fan fiction, this would be correct.

This is probably a dumb moment not meant to be symbolic, but Roman's seen drinking a whisky fairly often in the series, just like dear old dad, but he's just sitting there numb at the end with... a martini

― mh, Tuesday, May 30, 2023 12:50 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Could be symbolic... IIRC it's Gerri's favorite drink?

― blatherskite, Tuesday, May 30, 2023 12:57 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

nice catch! it stuck out to me but i wasn't sure why.

a meal fit for a kiiiing

the fact that they’re both martini enjoyers their lore is so rich and expansive 2 me pic.twitter.com/adXc4Siesa

— anna (@romansgerri) May 25, 2023

i wouldn't have minded a couple minutes less of clearly improvised sibling tomfoolery in the kitchen

So she marries Tom as part of a way to get her foot in the door at Waystar RoyCo from Tom's ATN connection.

Shiv had zero reason to trust Kendall or ultimately vote his way, because she wanted to sell anyway before the Mattson/Tom stuff came out, and therefore it wasn't a huge turnaround. And what does she really gain from giving Kendall what he wants and what he'd been willing to cast her and everyone he loves aside to achieve? She would have more clout with Tom running it.

Roman just decided he didn't even want to deal with it anymore, the pressure was wrecking him and now the weight of it all is gone.

Also kendall throwing in with Mencken makes perfect sense when you consider his motives being nothing more than wanting to get the company and run it, and Mencken being the one who would purportedly make it happen for him. All things being equal, if both sides promised it, he'd probably go with Jimenez, but his morals were utterly compromised by his unsuccessful quest for the throne so Mencken it was.

People want consistency from characters when people whose lived are fucked up can be sympathetically, understandably inconsistent. And the inconsistency was never out of character, it tracks back to everything they'd gone through.

Probably should mention that the world they inhabit is so deep and rich in terms of the people surrounding them and the orbits in which they operate. You always have the sense of the larger world outside the margins, and how it doesn't end just offscreen.

Yeah I thought this was the reverse, Tom marries Shiv to get in at the company, and separately Shiv regains an interest in the family business when politics isn't paying dividends (plus the Nate thing).

xp

The dumb take upthread from that Twitter guy is the result of an inability to imagine character motivation beyond the surface level. It's one of the rare shows that really feels so well-planned as far as that all goes.

I feel if you watched the ending, where everyone pulls deep from their behaviour over the past four seasons and acts completely in character with their known motivations and weaknesses, and then decided this was “inconsistent”, you might not be very good at following television.

Hmm

Yes?

the americans still the greatest series finale of all time tho

Watching this with the husband at the moment -- first time for him, rewatch for me -- we will hit the series finale later this week. I'm so smug about how good my pokerface has been throughout.

My memory of Shiv's timeline is that she leaves politics and comes into the company specifically because Logan tells her he will anoint her as his successor when he stands down, not because she wasn't succeeding at her job.

(i wouldn't have minded a couple minutes less of clearly improvised sibling tomfoolery in the kitchen)

we are not the same

she wanted to sell anyway before the Mattson/Tom stuff came out

Yeah Shiv's double-doublecross really was where she was leaning all along, she wanted out of the company — partly because there had never been a place in it for her. One story in the show is Shiv's relationship to her family name — she obviously knows the value of it, presumably it had opened a lot of doors for her even on the Democratic side, she (I assume, can't remember if it was ever said) keeps it when she marries Tom, she very much sees herself as a Roy, as one of Logan's heirs, but other people all throughout the show constantly treat her as a lesser vessel. Which makes Roman's comment about the bloodline at the end a sort of weird triumph for her — but it comes through maternity, she's still relegated to woman's work. She's not going to be the boss either way, she never wanted Kendall to run it in the first place, so of course she'll sell.

xp incredible scene. that they gave it to ken for a moment while the rest of the world didn't exist was a sweet and sad gift to him

The dumb take upthread from that Twitter guy is the result of an inability to imagine character motivation beyond the surface level. It's one of the rare shows that really feels so well-planned as far as that all goes.

― omar little, Tuesday, May 30, 2023 12:16 PM (thirty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

And this is why AI can't write new Succession scripts that are actually good, because the characters are deeper than all of the words that they've said.

liked the scenes of them just being brothers and sister (licking the englishman’s cheese!) before they got back to the business of successioning

he gets so boring about it

my bad, I was thinking Tom was already at ATN when he and Shiv got married

the englishman's cheese scene made me look forward to ca. 2030 when my american kids will be old enough to join my wife and friends and bully me about my accent.

He lives in Monaco, he has to be careful about his days!!!

― TY FRANCE HATES TEXAS CONFIRMED (gyac), Monday, May 29, 2023 9:02 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

it was a rich episode full of character and drama and trauma, but its lines like this that i'll miss the most.

Ok could someone please explain that line to me please, I feel like I'm missing something

it's a tax-dodging thing i assume

Ohhh ty.

Yeah Monaco is a tax haven and you have to be resident at least half the year to qualify. Cos he’s American that means every visit takes away from his total days he can spend out of Monaco. Tl;dr he’s a super rich ghoul.

so he can afford to buy his friend more cheese

What do y'all think peter's friend's pitch was?

Living Minus Minus

Really missed an opportunity for the show to end with Kendall going to a Phil Collins concert. "Phil sent me this ticket himself, it's front row center..."