TÁR, the cancel culture conversation piece of the year starring Cate Blanchett and Nina Hoss and directed by Todd Field

Absolutely loved it, incredible film

However, I do sort of wish the last 20 minutes...didn't exist

Todd Field profile in The New Yorker. On In the Bedroom:

The film débuted at Sundance, in 2001, and was acquired by Miramax. Field was devastated, because Miramax meant Harvey Weinstein, who was notorious for recutting movies into shreds. “I was weeping in the bathroom,” Field said. “I called up Tom Cruise and said, ‘Something terrible has happened.’ He basically said, ‘This is how you’re going to play it. It’s going to take you six months, and you’ll beat him, but you have to do exactly what I’m going to tell you to do, step by step.’ ” The plan: let Weinstein cut it to ribbons, wait for it to test poorly, then pull out the raves from Sundance and suggest that he release it the exact way it was when he’d bought it. Field followed Cruise’s advice, and it worked. “In the Bedroom” grossed more than twenty-five times its budget and was nominated for five Oscars, including Best Picture.

I love shit like that.

Watched this a second time and enjoyed the craft better. Yes it is a Tragedy, yes and it is very funny. I think the last 20 minutes are essential—her visceral reaction to the “fishbowl” hopefully gave her some insight into how she treated people, and the care she takes to study the video game music score and help the youth orchestra realize the composer’s intentions shows she genuinely wants to serve music and do her job well.

FWIW, Tom Cruise's cousin had a major role in that movie, so there was a rooting interest on his part

Reading that profile I couldn't remember if Field was Cruise's cousin and had wondered why Field hadn't disclosed it.

But, yeah, the slimy husband in ITB is Cruise's coz iirc.

Thomas Cruise Mapother IV

Tom Cruise picks up his mail in his depressingly dark childhood Long Island home

Saw this tonight and liked it a lot, most of what I had to say has already been covered, in depth, but also

* have to confess to being completely lost in her interview at the start
* sound design was simply incredible at times, never heard such subtle and dynamic stereo mixing
* the Vietnam fishbowl scene reminded me of Gary Glitter, sure this was an unintentional parallel.

what's the specific GG connection? Bangkok is the sex tourism destination ne plus ultra.

Also, the movie definitely assumes a lot of knowledge about the contemporary classical music scene (although some classical music snobs might argue that there are orchestras better or more prestigious than the Berlin Philharmonic). The female conductors she mentions in that opening interview I am sure are namechecked for the purposes of the film, top make clear that Tar's character is NOT meant to be a coded reference to them (especially Marin Alsop, who IS a real life lesbian protege of Leonard Bernstein).

Another example, when you see the poison pen emails she sent to sink Krista's career they are all the first names of the world's most prominent conductors.

oh christ

a) I know the country wasn't specifically named in the film and that Southeast Asia kind of looks the same to everyone who doesn't live here, but she's in is the Philippines, not Vietnam or Thailand. The characters were speaking Tagalog, plus there was the Marlon Brando reference re: the crocodiles (Apocalypse Now was shot in the Philippines), plus there was a scene with a photo of Jose Rizal on the wall (although why in the world a Filipino family would have a framed photo of him up is a mystery)

b) this was the second movie in a row I saw after Triangle of Sadness where the rich white person character(s) has to defer to Filipinos to show just how far they've fallen, and you know what, fuck that shit. stop using poor brown people to make a point in your white privilege morality plays.

giving ToS a pass for now because Filipina actress Dolly de Leon was tremendous in that role, but count me in among the folks that hated Tar's final 20 mins. There was no reason at all to set it in the Philippines or anywhere in Southeast Asia, as if working here is the punishment that canceled white people deserve. why not an orchestra playing San Diego Comic Con? prob would've had the same impact and been funnier

Sorry Roz, should have known it was Philippines rather than Vietnam as I have spent time in both, was thrown by the crocodiles thing, but of course Apocalypse Now wasn't filmed in Vietnam.

You make a good point with your b) - tbh I found the last part the weakest, did not work out it was a cosplay audience straight away as the costumes were much too good.

Re: Gary Glitter, he was convicted in the UK due to images on his computer first, then after he'd left prison he travelled to Vietman, where he was caught actually abusing children and sent to jail there.

why not an orchestra playing San Diego Comic Con? prob would've had the same impact and been funnier

Or at the second inauguration party for a Florida GOP governor.

it's a good point, would expect her to perhaps lean into it in the style of Louis CK, as I don't think she has genuine remorse for what she has done.

It's been a few months now since I watched it, but I seem to remember a seemingly throwaway line near the beginning about how Tár was on the forefront of pushing Asian composers into the canon? If so, would it potentially add at least a wrinkle to the last act?

I agree that Lydia being forced to conduct, say, the southern New Jersey youth symphony in the last reel would've been just as funny

b) this was the second movie in a row I saw after Triangle of Sadness where the rich white person character(s) has to defer to Filipinos to show just how far they've fallen, and you know what, fuck that shit. stop using poor brown people to make a point in your white privilege morality plays.

this is a good point. didn't think about it this way.

It's been a few months now since I watched it, but I seem to remember a seemingly throwaway line near the beginning about how Tár was on the forefront of pushing Asian composers into the canon? If so, would it potentially add at least a wrinkle to the last act?

substantive, fucking iPhone

Sorry, badly worded. That's sort of what I meant; if the whole movie is told from the main character's subjectivity, the ending is a counterpoint to her inflated sense of cultural largesse.

Why would the Philippines be seen as a comedown for her?

No badinage, no swanky bars and restaurants for her to lord over.

If you want to argue through the main character’s POV that it’s a comedown for her cos it’s not prestige, it’s not even in the west, then fine, make that point, but I can’t see a way past Roz’s point that the Philippines is a standin for lesser in such a particular way that the narrative is endorsing Tár’s implied POV, not critiquing it.

I need to see it again but I remember feeling like there was a weird slippage in the final section where it was clear she was in Thailand but then she was in the Philippines without any explanation.

Also: it's kinda driving me nuts that there are no crocodiles in Apocalypse Now? Right? Not in Redux or Final Cut either? Obviously this doesn't mean they weren't brought in for the movie it's just...weird. I even googled where Island of Dr Moreau was shot!

If you want to argue through the main character’s POV that it’s a comedown for her cos it’s not prestige, it’s not even in the west, then fine, make that point, but I can’t see a way past Roz’s point that the Philippines is a standin for lesser in such a particular way that the narrative is endorsing Tár’s implied POV, not critiquing it.

― can you still hit dinngers (gyac),

It's a strong point. I thought the movie critiqued her, not endorsed her, but I'll watch the last half-hour again.

Roz, did you still find the film worth a watch?

Tar's first breakthrough was through her work as an ethnomusicologist, so I think the film leads us to think she may be going back to her roots in a sense, that this may actually be a fresh start for her, only to reveal the final swerve.

Yes, I thought she was returning to that too. Made me wonder, four years doing an ethnographic project, that doesn't seem to gel with her poor background, surely?

I get what Roz and Gyac are saying, but on a second viewing the Tar character does not act like it's a comedown, or she's too good for it. She really throws herself into it! She studies the score, and tries to teach the the kids how to realize the composer's intentions.

Also: it's kinda driving me nuts that there are no crocodiles in Apocalypse Now? Right? Not in Redux or Final Cut either? Obviously this doesn't mean they weren't brought in for the movie it's just...weird. I even googled where Island of Dr Moreau was shot!

― ryan, Monday, January 23, 2023 7:57 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I heard a podcast interview with Todd Field (probably on Marc Maron?) in which he acknowledged the river cruise scene was drawn from his own experience. And I think he also said that the crocodiles were never actually used in Apocalypse Now, though I can't find any other reference to their existence whatsoever.

isn't there a bit with laurence fishburne with crocodiles? It's been years since i saw it.

i was v confused too on first viewing because 1) i thought the crocodile ref was to dr moreau 2) i thought dr moreau was filmed in thailand (???) 3) then i recognized tagalog

roz's point well taken but i don't think tar's moment of realizing "how far she's fallen" comes when she defers to filipinos but rather when she exploits them. in triangle of sadness exploitation is just an ambient joke, and none of the privileged characters ever confront it or actually recognize themselves for what they are-- they just sulk or look bewildered when the tables are randomly turned. (the island section was far and away the best part, because of dolly de leon; and one might be inclined to say look triangle of sadness-- eventually-- confers protagonism on a filipina, something tar cannot do because it is so relentlessly confined to the journey of tar, queen of staten island; but i'd probably mutter something about that being an easier gesture for a movie that has not actually bothered having any human characters for the first couple of hours, let alone a protagonist.)

back to tar at the fishbowl the reason this is such a low point is that she hasn't fallen there, but rather been there this whole time. when the hostess points to girl #5, and an entire life of ubermensch heroism suddenly aligns into the clarity of trafficking, maybe one of the things that makes tar puke is remembering her ethnomusicology. what was she really doing, even then?

"video game music to a click track" (as tyrannical as her ticking heart) is such sufficient humiliation for this character that i agree that san diego comic-con would work as well or better as purgatory to leave her in. (+ boring maryland otm that in many ways this reads as a moment of grace.) but i don't actually think the movie takes her to the phillipines at the end to sharpen her humiliation. rather it's because leaving her transatlantic metropole and being offered a nonwhite person for sale by another nonwhite person is the starkest way this npr listener can be revealed to herself.

of course it's still all about her, yeah. and it occurs to me only now that another way to read the fishbowl, meaner and grosser, and more completely damned by roz's post i think, is that she vomits not because she's looking in a mirror but because "she used to be able to order up world-class slavic cellists for her delectation and is now reduced to buying southeast asian teenagers just like every other declasse libertarian". in such a reading yes the phillipines stand for nothing more than "more shit for tar". maybe there is an unpleasant vestige of this doing some kind of affective work even in my version where her vomit is the pins going into oedipus' eyes? idk.

Made me wonder, four years doing an ethnographic project, that doesn't seem to gel with her poor background, surely?

imagine how many scholarships this character got tho

yeah for sure

yeah, i think the presumption is that Tár was the token grantee who climbed to the top through a mix of raw talent, appropriation, perseverance, politics and Machiavellian machination. Her slow boil realization that those tactics won't work in her current age/station/cultural moment is the horror that keeps the story bubbling.

i took the ending of Tár at least in part as underlining the character's mercenary bottom line and willingness to do whatever is necessary to stay in the spotlight somewhere. the band don't start without her; which band may never have mattered as long as she still holds the baton. but the argument is not what she's seeing so much as what tools the director is using to convey the story and the point that her monster hunter concert experience is hallmarked by grimy meeting rooms and substandard accommodation and brothels is certainly worth interrogating as more than a comeuppance.

triangle of sadness is, crucially, a dopey fuckin' movie.

"video game music to a click track" (as tyrannical as her ticking heart) is such sufficient humiliation for this character that i agree that san diego comic-con would work as well or better as purgatory to leave her in. (+ boring maryland otm that in many ways this reads as a moment of grace.) but i don't actually think the movie takes her to the phillipines at the end to sharpen her humiliation. rather it's because leaving her transatlantic metropole and being offered a nonwhite person for sale by another nonwhite person is the starkest way this npr listener can be revealed to herself

Very OTM

I guess what I want clarifying when I eventually watch it again is to what degree Tár regards the Philippines sojourn as a step away from martinis + galas or, because she can't hearing the tick-tick-tick of her ambition, another Challenge to Surmount. Field has made it clear from the beginning that her appreciation of the music she conducts is part of a bolus of ambitions and lusts, thus it wouldn't matter if she were in Manhattan or Manila.

well the sequence immediately beforehand is her meeting with new representation who make it clear that she needs a full rebranding. part of that may mean courting the WOKE INTERNET CROWD and being willing to show that she's capable of stepping outside her ivory tower so that she can restart the inevitable climb-of-shame back up the ladder. i'd bet that comiccon wouldn't even have her at her current state of ill repute so the monsterhunter penance tour is a pure means to an end.

the issue with any sort of cultural read on Tar is that the film is one giant calculated provocation. so while the reading of "associating with asian otherness=punishment" is astute, there's a case to be made that's part and parcel of Field trolling the audience's presumed sensibilities and sensitivities. Valid to say it makes the film unwatchable for you of course!

There was no reason at all to set it in the Philippines or anywhere in Southeast Asia, as if working here is the punishment that canceled white people deserve.

I get what Roz and Gyac are saying, but on a second viewing the Tar character does not act like it's a comedown, or she's too good for it. She really throws herself into it! She studies the score, and tries to teach the the kids how to realize the composer's intentions.

Um, yeah that’s exactly why the ending didn’t work for me. The film is behaving as if this is a punishment for her, even if the character herself isn’t choosing to see it that way (whether because she sees it as a challenge or she’s genuinely embracing it is besides the point). It was also a choice not to name the country she’s in despite all the indicators mentioned above - like yeah, it might as well have been Vietnam or Thailand or Bali, clearly the joke is on her if she’s playing anywhere that’s not Berlin or NYC, or even Tokyo or Beijing. again, they could have made that same point elsewhere without reinforcing stereotypes like “unnamed Southeast Asian country is a bastion for sex trafficking”.

and again, I’m saying this after having also just watched Triangle of Sadness, and was struck by the role Filipinos played in relation to the wealthy, white characters in both. And the Philippines popped up recently again in that terrible-looking Gerard Butler action movie Plane, which I haven’t seen but it seems he plays an American pilot who saves people from a bunch of Filipino terrorists. meh.

I’m not Filipino but I am Southeast Asian, and it’s not often I see people who look like me in Western films so it stands out to me whenever they do appear. It hasn’t been a great run lately, is all I’m saying. (ToS, as I’ve mentioned is saved by Dolly de Leon’s performance, and yes I agree with dlh that she does end up a protagonist of sorts. Might have been better if the film had been from her POV from the start though.)

Roz, did you still find the film worth a watch?

Sure, I was more or less with it up to the part where she punched her rival out. I don’t have any desire to rewatch it though, not just because of the ending but because I’m very tired of these films that are just Variations on a Theme (Rich White People Flop Era).

Finally watched this this weekend, I liked it OK, Field's writing is so on-the-nose that it's often distracting — I didn't believe anything about the dialogue on either side of the initial confrontation with the student, which haunts the film and obv comes back to bite her as you know it will. It felt like David Brooks trying to imagine both sides of such an argument or something. I enjoyed Blanchett having a good time tearing into the part, as she was clearly invited to do. But Lydia to me felt more like an accumulation of character traits and backstory than a fully formed character. The reveal about her family origins at the end felt tacked on — it didn't really illuminate anything about her nor even feel particularly connected to what we already knew of her.

I did like the way it was told, that it didn't spell a lot of things out. But even so it all felt very obvious and unsubtle.

I liked this movie more than The Square but it did feel like the same movie.

Roz otm re: the ending. Last night I was talking about this film with a friend and we agreed that conducting Monster Hunter for enthusiastic cosplayers was much more interesting work than conducting friggin Mahler (personally!)

In general I felt the "classical music technobabble" was really well done. There was only one thing that rang false, and that was Lydia's hesitation, and subsequent recollection, in recalling "Daniel Barenboim with the BBC Orchestra" (in response to the cellist talking about Du Pre playing Elgar on Youtube). I mean maybe I'm skewed in my Elgar love but "Du Pre / Elgar / Barenboim / BBC Orchestra" is one of the most famous performances of all time, I don't think Lydia would require a beat-and-a-half to recall the details. Considering that was the only moment that kinda "seemed wrong" to me in all the technobabble, I was generally impressed.

Rich White People Flop Era

TBH, there's a wealth of material out there to cull from on this theme

This sounds like Haneke's Hidden without anything like the Algerian migrant.

xp fgti, yeah it was convincing that she was a great conductor and teacher. this is what makes the movie work -- it would have been easy to have her be a fraud who got her comeuppance, but i think she was a genuine artist who *also* used her position to exploit people.

Sure, I was more or less with it up to the part where she punched her rival out. I don’t have any desire to rewatch it though, not just because of the ending but because I’m very tired of these films that are just Variations on a Theme (Rich White People Flop Era).

― Roz, Monday, January 23, 2023 12:59 PM

Your post was fantastic, and, like I wrote, has forced me to re-watch the thing.

h/t to fact checking cuz
https://chicagoreader.com/columns-opinion/on-culture/whos-getting-tarred

Oof. As a fan of Alsop that gives me yet more food for thought on this film. I didn’t catch in the film that Tar said specifically Alsop didn’t face any discrimination, I thought she said she was a trailblazer or something.

have to disagree with this I'm afraid

But “power corrupts” is a cliche and a false one. It shifts responsibility from the doer to the position.