like the queen this thread will never die: in which we ALL resign (ourselves to disgusting miseries to post-boris politics 2022)

“You've done me wrong, your time is up
You took a sip from the devil's cup
You broke my heart, there's no way back
Move right out of here, baby, go on pack your bags”

And they say she lacks self-knowledge.

xp

but he'll still ultimately tell people to vote for them, racism and all

Indeed, his follow up tweet says he will vote for them.

I'd rather be fighting Labour too which is why I'm voting for the lesser of two evils but I think you're being a bit naive - looking back at New Labour's term in office - about how bad these people can be

— Owen Jones (@OwenJones84) October 4, 2022

This is somewhat of a new situation though, because just 6 weeks ago I would have said that the Tories would get back in. Starmer seemed utterly useless to everyone (and still does to us, I think). Now a Labour gov seems a certainty. Based on that, the left does need to reorient its strategy, such as it is

agreed. i don't think it's viable to do this through the Labour Party tho

Agree with poster glumdalclitch!

Except I'm not sure a Labour government is a certainty. Long way to go.

I'm sure Jones is not deluded enough to think the left will have any purchase and power in the party organs and bureaucracy after a Starmer/Reeves victory

― glumdalclitch, Wednesday, 5 October 2022 bookmarkflaglink

So what does it mean to say they will fight them? Starmer is an authoritarian and will throw the police and the law at protestors. Why does he think he is better than Braverman?

This lesser of two evils stuff is weak and doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Yes. How he thinks he will fight them I can't really say. Through Guardian articles I guess _shrug_

I haven't yet seen/heard him say that he will recommend others to vote for them, just that he will.

As far as "lesser of two evils" goes, I have to very grudgingly admit that that is an exact description of Starmer's Labour. For 5 bad policies there might be 1 half good one. That doesn't mean I will vote for them, Im not deluded enough to think they will [Paul Mason voice] advance the class struggle

It's academic though, the homeowning and mortgage paying voters have decided that Labour is where their vote is going, and soon the Sun and Times might well decide that

lol it's pretty grim times when you are thinking an outright Labour majority could actually be dangerous and being propped up by the LibDems might curb Starmer's authoritarianism. That is literally the definition of "there are no good outcomes, abandon all hope"

"For 5 bad policies there might be 1 half good one. That doesn't mean I will vote for them, Im not deluded enough to think they will [Paul Mason voice] advance the class struggle"

Corbyn's Lab wasn't about advancing the class struggle. This is not what this is about. And one thing they don't do is announce policy. Till the conference, where what they came up with was inadequate.

"It's academic though, the homeowning and mortgage paying voters have decided that Labour is where their vote is going, and soon the Sun and Times might well decide that"

Ok so now we are on the vote of people is purely academic because mortgages so it doesn't matter. Fine, just say that. Don't pretend they are better.

Being better than Suella Braverman is the lowest bar in the country: Starmer clears it.

Liz Truss is already less popular than Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn ever were

Liz Truss: -59 net favourability (1-2 Oct)

Boris Johnson worst score: -53 (July 2022)
Jeremy Corbyn worst score: -55 (June 2019)

there could be some similar reforms to what Starmer did last year, to prevent "entryism" and increase the power of parliamentary party votes over membership votes. Although reform might be bit more difficult, seeing as they barely have any rules other than "give us your dosh" when it comes to voting eligibility.

xp

Suella Braverman has better hair than Starmer

Labour’s immigration policy https://t.co/N016UvXNKg

— Sunlight bathed the golden glow (@mypalfootfoot7) October 5, 2022

Look at this discussion. There is no organisation, no strategy so ignoring the treatment of Begum and Muslim voices in the party becomes collateral.

Are you though cos they’re already doing terrible things (just ask @ApsanaBegumMP) and instead of fighting back all I see are supposed figureheads of the left lining up to wet themselves over some shitty state capitalist start up https://t.co/y0WeyfiYN3

— Mary Robertson (@Maryrobs84) October 5, 2022

Being better than Suella Braverman is the lowest bar in the country: Starmer clears it.

― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 5 October 2022 bookmarkflaglink

This is naive, and ignores all evidence of what these people are like.

EXCL: Last night’s LGBT party at Conservative conference descended into claims of homophobic abuse.

Attendees had to be removed for using highly offensive homophobic slurs.

One gay Conservative attending told me “Morally I don’t feel I fit in anymore”.https://t.co/MB1TLfP9YM

— Paul Brand (@PaulBrandITV) October 5, 2022

Really don't want to wish people ill...then I remember they are Tories.

it's going to be very, very sweet watching a lot of these people get bankrupted and wiped out as rising mortgage rates mean buy-to-let suddenly goes to shit https://t.co/zGzYaZsY7m

— Tom Blackburn (@malaiseforever) October 5, 2022

I am well aware of the differences in attitude towards home ownership between the UK and many continental European countries but am unsure of the reasons. Henning Wehn riffs on this matter at length in his stand-up routine.

Last time I checked, I think only Spain had a higher % of home ownership than UK in Europe, but it's been ages since I've looked at the stats.

Be interested to see what the situation is for Ireland. Maybe some Irish contributors to the thread would like to comment? I know there was a glut of house building during the Celtic Tiger years, but as to what abundance of supply did to house prices and mortgage rates I don't know.

Not knowing the causes makes it harder to comment on the effects. Obv., if renters are larger in number then they have greater political capital and can demand things like tenants' rights and rent controls that are sadly off the agenda over here.

I think selling off council houses dirt cheap and then stopping councils from replacing the housing stock has a something to do with it.

A deliberate policy to turn people into Tory voters.

I think selling off council houses dirt cheap and then stopping councils from replacing the housing stock has a something to do with it.

I think there is a follow-up question in this case, which is why didn't the first Blair administration not reverse the 2nd part of this? I can see how cancelling the policy completely would have been damaging for them, but...

Be interested to see what the situation is for Ireland. Maybe some Irish contributors to the thread would like to comment? I know there was a glut of house building during the Celtic Tiger years, but as to what abundance of supply did to house prices and mortgage rates I don't know.

This queue is not for flight boarding or grant. The picture shows how bad is the housing crisis in #Ireland. Rooms, apartments, and student accommodations are outrageous and expensive. Immigrants say finding accommodation is mental trauma. #mentalillness #Dublin #rent #helpless pic.twitter.com/oXBVAdYLuc

— Mission Climate Sustainability (@climate_mission) August 18, 2022

A queue to view an apartment to rent in Dublin today @MurphyEoghan #dublinrentalcrisis #Dublin pic.twitter.com/KAxHUeCbU9

— Martin O'Donoghue (@mtodonoghue12) February 2, 2019

The Blair administration didn't reverse anything because they were Thatcherite scum

OTM

yes but Grandpoint Genie's suggestion wasn't that it would have made sense for them to do it because they are ideologically sound, it's that it would have made sense for them to do it because not doing so creates tory voters

nu Labour's appeal was deliberately toward former Tory voters, you could argue it would have made sense for them to pursue PR which wouldn't have conflicted with their neolib economics but they didn't choose to do that either. my answer might have seemed glib but i could finesse it and arrive at the same point - they were/are ideologically opposed to any economics of mass public investment

strictly speaking increasing home ownership doesn't necessarily create Tories but it tends to move people into economic conservatism

which is hair splitting, i know

Yes, but creating Tory voters was definitely one of main the reasons they did it.

Was it Cameron or Osborne who said council housing was a petri dish for growing Labour voters?

Osborne

thatch: the plan was to create tory voters via home ownership (but by definition it left many behind)
nu-lab: the belief was that said voters were eminently re-turnable via (non-housing) policies that the tories were unlikely to offer -- and tbf this tactic not initially unsuccessful, tho of course it sees voters as consumers more than an extended cohort of social solidarity (i feel the codeword here was "middle england")
osborne: let's deploy policies that eliminate what remains of the cohort of social solidarity

the left-behind have been a bit of a wild card in terms of voting patterns and numbers: mainly massively alienated and struggling too much even to pay attention to politics that aren't aimed them, but also intermittently mobilisable, tho in the absence of follow-up policy never for long (some turned out for brexit, some turned out for corbz in 2017)

adding: the "red wall" is a bad quasi-sociological category that carelessly fuses (or deliberately obfuscates) these two blocs, which don't really share interests: post sell-off house-owners and the "left behind"

(the osborne plan eliminates the solidarity more than the cohort = it strips away their ability to enter politics)

Good piece on the Tory conf:

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2022/10/a-dispatch-from-the-tory-conference-fever-dream

"The huge lobbying at Tory conference also continues, with polluting corporations hosting supposedly ‘green’ meetings, banks paying for exclusive ‘lounges’ for MPs, lobbying giant Edelman hosting all international visitors, and so on. But that caravan can easily move on to a compliant Labour conference, which Starmer is keen to host."

"The lesser of two evils"

I must stress this every time Lee Anderson comes up; he was in the Labour party until 2018. These people still exist in the party. Arguably they're now running it. https://t.co/DuDDQBaZGV

— Marl Karx with a Vengeance (@BareLefter) October 5, 2022

Mark S:

>>> the "red wall" is a bad quasi-sociological category that carelessly fuses (or deliberately obfuscates) these two blocs, which don't really share interests: post sell-off house-owners and the "left behind"

Good statement!

It is a depressing fact that this term was invented by hacks in about December 2019 and has since then been treated as if it is a long-standing term of sociological and psephological analyis going back to Engels and Durkheim.

Genie: I'm surprised by your Spain stat - my perception is that most Spaniards live in flats - but maybe they own them rather than rent them?

it derives from US analysis of why clinton was set to win but then lost in 2016 -- tho bcz of the weird vagaries of political terminology that was all about the "blue wall" = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_(U.S._politics)

it's seen as a solid fact st least partly bcz of the pitiful cargo-cult nature of brit pol commentary wrt US pol commentary

was about to say, it's almost as if parliamentary politics and its analysts is a dumb simulacrum of actual politics based on imaginary sim people

https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-rate-in-europe/

I think the stats I saw were from a few years ago. Appears in a lot of Eastern European countries the ownership figures are still higher! Spain is still higher than the UK though. PF's comment about flats probably correct.

NY times to boil more Brit journo piss.

New woke slander on the nation just dropped. https://t.co/ANFmbSUzO7

— Elvis Buñuelo (@Mr_Considerate) October 6, 2022

So it seems she's over in Europe begging European leaders to help prevent an energy crisis in the UK this winter.

tbf she is a Remainer though

Brexit seems completely drained of any political capital for now. I think Truss was just as much a Remainer as Kieth was, as in ready to change almost any position at the drop of a hat.

I think selling off council houses dirt cheap and then stopping councils from replacing the housing stock has a something to do with it.

― Fronted by a bearded Phil Collins (Tom D.), Thursday, October 6, 2022 9:52 AM (six hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

A deliberate policy to turn people into Tory voters.

― Fronted by a bearded Phil Collins (Tom D.), Thursday, October 6, 2022 9:52 AM (six hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

it didn't turn me into a tory. but it does mean i can be relatively unworried about the fact i do a minimum wage job cos i still get to live somewhere nice without risk of eviction. doubt someone on even twice what i'm earning could afford to live round here now.

I got a bit a fright a few months back when I got a letter from housing informing me I'm 3 months behind in rent arrears. It was just a system glitch and the problem was easily sorted out. But if I was living in the private rental sector I'd have been getting eviction notices after a few weeks.

Is home ownership where people of limited means should sink their life savings? Is this a good practice overall? On the surface it seems to make sense.

What life savings?

Or go to debtor's prison ...

a lot of things will go up a couple of percent - benefits, NHS funding - far behind inflation, and because of the way math works the tories will tout it as “the largest ever increase in benefits spending, helping you get through these tough times”

If this is true in a non-socialist economy, should it be taken as bitter medicine?