ok what the fuck is happening in ukraine

It would be easier to understand to compare daily emissions on both sides, not daily on one side to yearly on the other.

Is the argument here that dropping nukes on Ukraine would be nothing compared to how much Americans pollute?

Much pollution on both sides.

xp No?! It just struck me as an insane statistic

Oh I see, didn't look at tbe post from 4 days ago

For all the new right-wing winners in Europe (Bulgaria the latest), plus already irate right-wing citizens of Czech Republic, making a deal for natural gas will be the most rational approach to overtly pro-Putin (or anyway pro-Russian, if he's removed) policies and processes: a sort of EU of Nationalists---hope I'm wrong---but there's also this, from those who don't need the gas and don't give a shit about/maybe are even further enraged by Ukraine taking back territory, pickin' on Putin, that true Red Stater:

A significant chunk of the GOP wants to curtail aid to Ukraine. If Republicans win a House majority, they'll be able to act on that position.

...
The Ukrainian gains in Kherson follow the recapture over the weekend of the strategic transit hub of Lyman, in eastern Donetsk. Ukrainian forces encircled the city, killing some of the retreating Russian troops whose bodies collected on the roadsides. The Ukrainians then pushed through Lyman apparently intent on extending their gains into Luhansk, the region where Russia has maintained its strongest grip.

The collapse of the Russian position in Lyman was notable because it occurred just as Putin was claiming that the city and all of Donetsk region, along with Luhansk, Kherson and Zarpoizhzhia, were annexed and restored to Russia as part of its historical lands. But unlike in Kharkiv where Moscow ordered a retreat, Russian forces had apparently been told to defend Lyman.

“All Russian forces withdrew in poor order, suffering high casualties from artillery fire as they attempted to leave the town to the East,” the Western official said of Lyman, comparing it to Kharkiv. “Then, as you recall, troops received an order to cede the territory,” the official said. “But in Lyman we think that the Russian troops retreated despite orders to defend and remain”

I don't think anyone in this thread was claiming that Americans don't pollute, let alone don't pollute the most per capita? Shadowboxing aside, we've already seen and will probably see more statements like this from the at first weird, but by now predictable convergence of certain left and right wing populists re: Ukraine.

Are you willing to starve and be left in a cold home for the sake of Ukrainian democracy?

— Lavern Spicer 🇺🇸 (@lavern_spicer) September 24, 2022

Many people are saying this, etc.

Once again replying to a point nobody made. The only point is that it’s a startling statistic.

xpost re pressure of fuel needs, hope this will work out:

WASHINGTON, Oct 4 (Reuters) - The White House has ruled out any ban or curbs on natural-gas exports this winter, in a bid to help alleviate energy shortages in Europe, according to two people directly involved in the discussions.

In March, U.S. President Joe Biden committed to deliver 15 billion cubic metres (bcm) more of liquefied natural gas (LNG) to Europe following Russia's invasion of Ukraine and has already surpassed that goal.

Further White House analysis has only cemented support for ongoing exports, the sources said, although rising energy costs and a colder-than-expected winter could test Biden's commitment. A ban has not been seriously considered, said a U.S. official.
Biden and his aides are bracing for the prospect that inflation-fatigued Americans will pay high home-heating bills this winter. Inventories of natural gas, the nation's primary heating fuel, are at historically low levels after U.S. companies exported record amounts to Europe in recent months to counter a cut in supplies and higher prices for European power plants.

and just in case it wasn't clear, my nuke comment was not meant to be in response to the post about natural gas. I was responding to the reports that Russia's tactical nuke division appeared to be bringing equipment into the region, which is a bit worrying to me, but perhaps not to anyone else.

The way I think about it (those nukes are a lot closer to me!) is if they nuked here, hopefully I’d be vaporised instantly and I’d just kill myself if I wasn’t. It’s not worth me worrying about it.

I sincerely hope that if Russia dropped a tactical nuke on or near a Ukraine city that would not be your response. The chance that any nuclear weapon is used is probably still low, but there's a pretty broad range of how something like this could play out and many scenarios that are not the classic world ending event that we've all been raised with. There are plenty of horribly shitty things that could happen that fall far short of utter apocalypse.

which is a bit worrying to me, but perhaps not to anyone else.

xp if you want to scroll up and read what I said months ago about how I felt about visiting Ukraine and how fucking heartbreaking the situation is, you can do so at any time. You have no control over the situation, what are you going to do?

xp

"anyone else" meaning on ILX, not in the world at large

I think a lot of people on ilx care. And getting back to pressure from "realists." just that nukes's being presented (by Putin's hints, by Chechen Dude etc. saying he should fucken do it, no more Mr. Nice Guy) by gen. chatter, as an option, say, is a reminder of how this whole situation has moved past dealmaking as more than another gamble, with somebody who no longer seems like stone cold transactional Mastermind.

The stone has cracked etc.

it is horrible and heartbreaking and not at all something that we should have to even think about in a reasonable world, and we have little control over it, but maybe some small increase in general awareness can help keep pressure on Russia and be a check on them doing something so massively stupid

Putin will do what he wants. I’m not sure ordinary citizens of anywhere will affect that. It’s not like he even cares about what others who could reach him were saying to him.

soviet unions coming back baby

IT BEGINS: Moscow's TASS news reports that mobilized troops in the Omsk region are electing spokesmen to complain about conditions and lack of pay. These are literally acts of mutiny and insubordination-- and don't bode well for the combat performance Putin’s newest troops. https://t.co/CrCQsqEiJa

— Chuck Pfarrer | Indications & Warnings | (@ChuckPfarrer) October 5, 2022

in all seriousness it does seem like russians do not want to fight and tbf why would they fundamentally what is the reason for the war, now ukraine is taking territory at will, russia is losing the war and more troops wont help if they cant train and supply them or really make them want to fight

maybe they are quiet quitting

lying flat (dying)

i dont want to get too into the theories ive hatched watching war map videos on youtube because thats an obviously deranged behavior, but there are reasonable scenarios where ukraine completely wins the war soon, none of the analysts really want to come out and say it cause its maybe not the most likely outcome and you look like a loser if it doesnt happen, but it is a possibility imho, and no one was predicting the current state of affairs either, pretty funny to think every expert was calling the russian military the second best in the world when this started, thats a good thing for people to believe if youre russia you just cant start believing it yourself

no surprise that if you have a kleptocratic government the military will follow along and when you think you have five hundred thousand sleeping bags you actually have zero

tbh I find it hard to parse too because the US media is overwhelmingly pro-Ukraine and sometimes I feel when someone like Tucker comes out and says "Russia is definitely winning" maybe they're just keeping it real cuz the reality is they have so many more people & resources. but then I see these videos coming out of Russia showing what the conditions in the barracks are really like, with everyone just sleeping on the floor and having to share guns they've never actually used before, not to mention all those saying straight up to the camera "we were lied to, I genuinely believed they wanted us here", I'm not sure how they actually "win"

yeah at this point just with the amount of territory ukraine has taken back i dont think theres much question whats going on, obviously tides can turn and so forth but right now ukraine is crushing them

unfortunately Russia has historically had a heavy tolerance for catastrophic losses of human life, including the unequipped and unmotivated

yeah but not sure catastrophic losses are going to help them in this case, and tbf who knows if that tolerance is still in effect

a lot of political commentators think that part of the formula of putins power is a live and let live agreement with russians, they let him be the dictator and in exchange he doesnt do things like send them to war, that political apathy is harder to maintain when youre asking hundreds of thousands of people to die

also just from a tactical pov fighting a war of attrition is a lot easier when youre defending your land than it is being an invading force

Fortunately, survival is just a phone call away:

Thousands of Russian soldiers have already called a Ukrainian hotline set to surrender in a fresh humiliation for Putin's bedraggled army, officials have said.

Andriy Yusov, a spokesman for Ukraine's military intelligence, said that in just a few weeks some 2,000 people have called the 'I Want To Live' hotline in order to give themselves up.

Calls have come from soldiers in Ukraine, those still in Russia who have been conscripted, and some who have not even received draft orders yet who wanted to check the procedure, Yusov claimed.

Russia has historically had a heavy tolerance for catastrophic losses of human life

shades of westmoreland in this declaration gotta say; but also to the extent that this reputation has been earned (mostly 1812 / 1941?) the context has been defensive-- in contrast the responses to 1905 or 1914 or 1979 were not so sanguine.

even the marches to paris & berlin are the reflections of those defensive ordeals, still full of the energy of the enemy push-- the current regime maybe would like russians to think of this the same way (or at least as the liberation of a neighbor-- more like the red cavalry-- who you know-- believed in something) but that's not as easy a thing to order people to feel as the best media theorists maybe suppose.

I'm not sure who you have in mind, but the actual best media theorists would agree with you completely.

More to the point, this idea that "Russia" has some kind of culturally shared indifference to death is kind of silly. Would you say this about contemporary Germany or Japan? The US historically had a heavy tolerance for loss of life as seen in Vietnam, the WWs, the Civil War, etc. Imperialist regimes are barbaric.

^^^

(i was thinking of putin’s media theorists. overrated?)

lol I guess we'll see

lol salute to the russians calling ahead for surrender plans before theyve been drafted

there are some really really garbage and clueless books about Putin's Russia, out of all the ones I attempted to read and deleted after the first chapter a few months back - Bill Browder's Red Notice has to be up there with the worst shit ever published.

#Ukraine 🇺🇦: remarkable footage from the #Kherson front. A Russian BMP crew waves white flags as it rides towards a Ukrainian position, surrendering to the Ukrainians. pic.twitter.com/ZEs7liiVQn

— Thomas van Linge (@ThomasVLinge) October 5, 2022

kherson is supposed to be where the good russian troops are and now even thats falling apart

surely this is part of Putin's plan to populate Ukraine with Russian speakers

I wouldn't get ahead of ourselves here a LOT of Ukraine is still under Russian control.

the nightmare scenario for russia is they have a bunch of their best guys/stuff on the north side of the river there, which they do, they get overrun by ukraine and are unable to retreat because they only have ferries to get across the river and the leadership hasnt planned appropriately because theyre determined to defend that position, which they are

theyve been at a stand still for months and then in the last few days ukraine has broken through

A timelapse of the development of Ukraine's counter-offensive in Kherson Oblast over the past 5 days. pic.twitter.com/HBMjlrTK4F

— War Mapper (@War_Mapper) October 5, 2022

I wouldn't get ahead of ourselves here a LOT of Ukraine is still under Russian control.

― Fronted by a bearded Phil Collins (Tom D.), Wednesday, October 5, 2022 3:23 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

sure but ukraine is currently taking it back at will, and its pretty clear based on russia doing a mass call up and sending their guys to the front without training or supplies that theyre really hurting right now, like if they felt they could hold the line for a month or two while they got the new conscripts up to speed they would do that

You guys, maybe read some of Marc Bennetts’ books about Russia? He’s been there for a long while but returned to the UK because of Events.

this reputation has been earned (mostly 1812 / 1941?) the context has been defensive

thinking of Finland actually

idk barbarossa followed just quickly enough on its heels that it seems hard to be certain what the domestic upshot for stalin might have been of continuing to fight a grinding border war in alliance with what had just been awkwardly retconned out of being an ideological enemy, rather than the great patriotic antifascist existential one he was suddenly delivered? unsure. nevertheless again empires look much alike in this dept: extremely willing to throw people into the grinder; sometimes able to sustain it; not in as much control of the latter as they’d like.

xxp this guy? https://twitter.com/marcbennetts1

some interesting stuff in his feed