suicide

and if negative thoughts make it impossible to attempt or pursue any of those options, probably need therapy, and there’s no shame in that

forgot to mention exercise and other healthy lifestyle changes as a project. whatever thing you decide to do, best to start w small, achievable goals and take it one day at a time.

if you can manage to not do suicide or suicide thoughts today, and figure out how to consistently not do it tomorrow (don’t worry about day after that), you can have a reasonably emotionally okay rest of a life by principle of mathematical induction

Probably everyone in the US/UK and definitely everyone on ilx should have a therapist, I'm insanely grateful for mine.

it's become an affordability thing even with insurance at the moment, but I definitely want to go back to therapy. however I think I am going to have to find a way to make it work. I'm eliminating some monthly excess expenses which might free up the cash.

my old therapist moved to Satellite Beach and she was the one who worked with me best, but she keeps not taking my insurance. ortherwise I could do video sessions with her. i'm going to email her again since I changed carriers.

Hey Neanderthal I've absolutely been there, please DM me if ever you want to talk or vent or anything.

My own struggle with suicidal ideation is largely "won" at this point, it's been over two years since my last serious episode. The ways I dealt with it were complex. Not "complex" as in "it's complicated!" but complex like it took a multi-faceted, flexible approach with a lot of trial and error. Medication, therapy and "adjusting one's bad habits" were the big three, but I found that not any single approach was the sole fixer.

More than anything though, when I was in states of distress, I needed people to listen to me. So yeah, please DM if you desire

This thread chimes in a bit with what the late great posted in terms of other stuff to think about.

Yes, there is no intrinsic meaning or purpose in your life. This is difficult; it’s also the reason there’s possibility for you. The task of living is to invent meaning and purpose, and then invent it again. It’s work. Much of the time it’s painful. Sometimes, it’s also joy. 3/

— Eric Reinhart (@_Eric_Reinhart) August 7, 2022

I've been in a similar place, N, when our daughter was about 7 and lived at home. I was the stay-at-home dad after her first birthday. All 7 years of her life had been a non-stop series of medical crises and a search for resources to meet all her needs, but most of it devolved onto my wife and I to provide 24-hour care.

During those same years my wife was totally stressed out at work under an abusive, demanding boss. Plus, she was recovering memories of early childhood sexual abuse. Plus, she was rear-ended twice by other drivers, leading to various physical problems.

I love both of them tremendously and I felt strongly bound by that love and by a deep sense of duty to help and protect both of them to the utmost of my ability. The demands I made on myself were for total commitment, and I kept up that pace for seven years. But I began more and more to pose it to myself that this treadmill of stress, exhaustion could only halt if my daughter died or I did.

In our case the eventual path required us to think what we always considered unthinkable, that our daughter needed to live apart from us under the direct care of others. That path proved horribly painful, long and difficult, but at least it was not impossible.

Your position sounds sadly similar. Problems and stresses piling up far faster than you can identify and acquire resources to deal with them, and your love for your parents and your deep sense of duty to them requires you to put forth superhuman efforts. I wish I could point at some in-obvious opening that will lead you to resolutions. I can't. All I can say is, your love for your parents doesn't require you to kill yourself. That is not what they want or need.

thanks folks.

today at work isn't helping. I just shut down, again, staring at the screen and not doing anything.

I'm not worried about discipline or getting canned or anything, I'm an 18 year lifer, p much I've gotten away with being blunt for years.

it's just not making me feel much better about myself atm.

i'm using a lot of music as therapy. I don't want to die, but I don't want to be alive either.

thanks all. with me it's all ebbs and flows, so I'm hoping I can break myself out of this and find some hope for the future.

Sending positive vibes your way, neaderthal.. everyone deserves to be happy, and hopeful

almost as if they heard my screaming into the void, my boss's boss immediately took SIX of my classes off of my plate, and gave to someone who isn't really busy, halving my work to a load that's still pretty big, but not impossible.

that's obv not going to solve *this* problem by itself, but it will perhaps reduce the number of panic attacks I have during the week.

Heck yeah man, maybe convince them to take a couple more off of you?

honestly those were the ones that were killing me. I can handle what's left.

what's going to be hard is fully extricating myself as people are so used to msging me but y'know....this helps.

Sending good thoughts your way Neando, I know you've been dealing with a lot. Glad to see someone taking some steps to lighten at least a portion of your load.

good luck Neanderthal, I just started three months off after absolute, tile-scraping burnout in my academic job. I have no idea if it will help but I sure didn't want to die without having taken the time off available to me. If you can do it, you should take the time owed to you, without worrying about the logistics (let it be someone else's problem).

not making me feel much better about myself

Sorry if I'm projecting, but this book has been really helpful for me:

https://www.amazon.com/There-Nothing-Wrong-You-Self-Hate/dp/0971030901

It took a while though. When I first read it the book seemed ... fine, but it didn't resonate somehow. The reason it didn't resonate at first is because I didn't see the self-judgments as self-judgments, I saw them as just facts. It took a while in therapy to recognize how many of my thoughts were self-judgments. But slowly I'm starting to turn the corner and see how bullshit they are. Still in process but has been probably the most important change in my life I've ever made.

The typefaces used in the printed book are absolutely unbearable but it's worth it.

I had a weird one. My grandmother committed suicide when my dad was young (maybe 4?) Never talked about in my family ever but learnt from the uncle. Through a period of weekly/daily suicidal ideation (maybe a year), after one simple chat with my dad (not about ideation, never told him, just a "hey how you going, how's your day been?" to little response from me)I realised I could not do that to him. From then I have been (mostly) clear.

Don't know how to analyse this besides recognising love you have for others helps? Also echoing all the above re: therapy, smalls goals, spiritual practices (big for me), and above all positive human contact. Best wishes Neanderthal

i had a good few days, though often times the black thoughts return in the wee hours of the morning as I'm going to sleep. but progress.

work, well, the person who was supposed to take over six of my classes, I met with them yesterday, took extra care to make the transition plan very gradual and incremental rather than just dumping it on them and leaving, had a meeting with her and my boss's boss. She was receptive, sounded calm, said it all made sense, that she'd reach out for help, but had no questions.

this morning, she was basically nowhere to be found for the first 3 hours, while chat questions were coming in, and people were pinging me asking if she was going to meet with them. I messaged her and she said she was 'overwhelmed' and 'didn't feel well so might be offline for much of the day'.

.........

everybody else is allowed to be 'overwhelmed' and 'not feel well' BUT ME!!!! why?!!!

I'm not going to ever ask someone to work though an illness, but how do you not tell your partner, instead just going offline and waiting for people to start making noise before you tell us?

in either case I managed to calm her down a bit but I'm like, I have four times your workload with these classes, we're about even with you taking these, how are YOU the overwhelmed one? you have a buddy (me). I had just myself when I was working all of these.

not helping my anxiety and stress. it's 'just work' but it's also the one thing that was rather stable earlier this year, and I don't need heart palpitations.

hasn't been a day in the last week where i haven't contemplated suicide but i'm not at the planning stage so hey it's just an annoying head voice we're all good

i hate those head voices. they suck. don't do it though. we need you here.

i feel like mostly i have enough grip on myself to never move past this stage but i wish that voice would shut up sometimes

Feeling you - I have suicidal ideation too but I absolutely know I would never do that to my son/partner/brothers/friends. So it doesn't scare me in that I know it's just a grim fantasy, but it certainly worries me in terms of what it says about the state of my life...

<3 everybody

ow my head

i actually would yell "No!" out loud in the morning in bed sometimes when the intrusive thoughts got too intense. it always seems like morning is worst. it kinda works for me! i would banish them for a bit. scares the cat a little but she gets over it.

lol i argue out loud with myself all the time nowadays

When I went for a minor medical procedure recently I was able to see my chart in the waiting area, upon which read “suicide risk.” I guess my primary care doctor decided that based on a 30 second conversation I had with him lol. Anyway I want a hundred more years, not 25 fewer

i woke up this morning INCREDIBLY angry about something that happened yesterday. like, the second i had waking consciousness. i've spent the last 3 hours trying to talk myself down. i just can't go have a day like that. the brain she is how you say...fucked. but what ya gonna do? its the only one i've got. i just have to work around it.

NV sending you warm wishes my friend. I'm sorry you're having to battle this

I hope you all find a break in the clouds. More than a break, a way out

NV you are the best & I send hugs or good music or chocolate or whatever you need <3

those voices suck and you don’t need that kinda noise. sorry yr going thru it. xx

NV and Scott, you're both cool and I like you.

<3 to all going through it. I do the yelling NO! thing too … even though I don’t really have anyone who would miss me that much. I feel like I have gotten this far, might as well see it through even if I am a nobody

i'm sure even when we don't believe it of ourselves we all have people who'd miss us badly

anyway thanks all, intrusive thoughts are some bullshit but we keep on cos fuck 'em

Damn, sarahell, we are all nobodies.

^

I know it's very little sarahell, but you are a somebody as far as I am concerned!

I have thought about it but come to the conclusion as someone still with one vulnerable dependant it would be an unforgivable act. Even if I have minor health quibbles I turn into a drama queen hypochondriac. I dread to think what I'd be like after ODing on opiates and drifting into death! I'd probably ring 111 and say yeah I've just taken enough co-dydramols to kill an elephant .. but also this recurring mild discomfort I keep experiencing in my lower chest is highly troubling, I'm worried it might be....

I used to rehash in my mind my most embarrassing moments of my life constantly but medication has helped tamp that down significantly. Empathy to NV, Scott, Sarah and all.

I still rehash embarrassing moments, even have dreams about them, but have (I think) learned to get over them. Worse than those are the moments where I didn't act in the right manner and maybe hurt someone else, and the guilt of those moments still feels crushing to me

i dont like nor buy the casting of think of those left behind because who wants to lay another burden on the burdens

but nv a mhic, a stór, your depths regardless of the surface tempest have been a resource for many of us in ways you may never know

"I still rehash embarrassing moments, even have dreams about them, but have (I think) learned to get over them."

I have had a greatest hits in my head for 40+ years and I really think I have just had to outlive them. Which unfortunately takes a hell of a long time. I also had to recognize them for what they are immediately and not let them go on and on. They suck the life out of you. It's kind of like realizing you are in a nightmare and trying to wake yourself up as soon as possible. Do whatever you can do to shut them down. You never learn from them. The loops. They're always the same. They are always dumb. If you told people half of them they would look at you like you were crazy for still thinking about some stupid thing you said or did when you were 15. At my worst, which was years ago now, I had no idea how to get out of my nightmares. My depression. I clung to the things I loved. That's all I could really think of to do. I wish I could say it was the people who loved me that kept me going but I truly believe it was art! The books. The music. Even when I didn't want to hear any music. Or read any books. Just looking at them reminded me that there were better things in life than what I was feeling. I say this in retrospect. I also self-medicated like hell. It's a fucking process. Unfortunately, I had to learn it all over again when I finally quit smoking and went on meds. It was brutal for me. Every day I wanted to die. Every morning. For a long time. And every day I somehow had to just get up and do it all over. THIS time, it was the people who loved me that kept me going. Because now I had forever love. I had a partner and kids who seemed used to my presence. And I made it through that. It really hurt. And I fear future pain. Something bad happening. Something I can't pull myself out of. So I surround myself with walls of art. I think positive. I do my best.

I can't go the Johnny Mandel route as long as my mom is alive - I don't believe in an afterlife but I'm pretty sure one would be whipped up to punish me for abandoning an increasingly elderly parent with no other family (my brother doesn't count because he's useless). Once she's gone, I dunno - I could see more hedonism in my future without much worry about the outcome. I haven't done coke in more than 20 years or had a drink in probably three - but if no one depended on me? Coke was nice. I miss American Spirits.

There's a lot of passive ideation for me - 'if my heart explodes, not gonna be too upset about it' - but I sometimes feel like really digging into it works like a pressure release valve? Like really confronting the darkest impulses, making them real, gets things to abate for a few days. And at the same time, the answer to what's the worst that can happen is usually death and if you're not supremely invested in living then that's not so bad. I worry a lot about things going even worse and ending up homeless or Alzheimer's skipping a generation and hitting me or so on.

Knowing that there's an escape hatch in those scenarios that doesn't bother me so much is freeing. Doc tells me I've got early-onset Alzheimer's I'm driving to Arizona and swan diving into the Grand Canyon. That sounds kind of fun, so why worry about dementia?

❤️

Much love to you, Milo

"Coke was nice. I miss American Spirits."

mmmmmm....sorry! started daydreaming there. be well, milo.

lol coke is nice

<3 milo

Coke is awful. Spirits, on the other hand…

i'm going through another bout of SI, my first since january. so far i'm feeling ok about it. we'll see how it goes. i mean SI isn't fun but i feel good about how my last SI bout turned out. i agree with you, milo, about just like... facing it. at this point, i've kind of accepted that it's just gonna be there along with me all my life, it's not some passing impulse. i've been working hard to make friends with my SI. just saying "yeah, i hear you, life fuckin' sucks, maybe one day". just, like, accepting that i do want to die, and that it's OK to want to die. even if my life didn't suck, it'd be ok to want to die.

that doesn't mean i don't want to live. like for a long time i thought of it as an either/or, if i want to die i must not want to live. i do want to live. i just also want to die. dialectics! anyway i'm supposed to, like, do something fun this weekend, and that's really challenging for me. i basically like myself, basically think i'm a good person who deserves to have a good time, and i'm also, like, not just anhedonic but oppositionally defiant. like, fuck you, i'm not going to have a good time, i'm going to self-harm.

i've been trying to find a way of navigating the overwhelming urge to self-harm in... the least unhealthy ways. emotional self-harm is actually one of the worst kinds of self-harm, i've found, because of how isolating it is. people love me and care about me, and self-harm is a pretty aggressive way of rejecting other people's love and care for me.

it is weird because a lot of this stuff does seem pretty fuckin' real. there's this thing an acquaintance says, "i'm here for a good time, not a long time". i'd kind of... i'd like to live that way. i just look around me and i'm not seeing anybody actually having a good time. i'm seeing a bunch of people who are miserable and hopeless and...

if you ask me where i see myself in five years, five years ago i would probably have shrugged and said "idunno". you ask me now and i'll just say "dead". because allostatic load. even if i don't actually kill myself, the shit i go through, like, you can see statistically the effect it has on the lifespans of people like me. it's not just suicide, it's all causes of death. i love my body now and i'm trying to take care of it and it's really fucking hard. i don't have the spoons. i'm doing better than my girlfriend who genuinely could have a myocardial infarction any day now. if she did, that wouldn't count as "suicide", and i guess it wouldn't be. when someone's marginalized... it's pretty common, really, for marginalized people to get killed and for our deaths to be called "suicides". just happened in oklahoma recently.

i mean that is a factor. why should i bother killing myself when there are _so many_ people out there who'd be happy to kill me? i don't believe in a happily ever after but part of me is morbidly curious to see if they'll actually go that far.

i do genuinely want to have a good time. i do want to enjoy whatever life i have left. sometimes, though, sometimes i just gotta hate being alive and want to die and just lean into that.

it is comforting. these is this... just kind of comforting fog when i'm in that space where suicide seems like a real possibility. i don't have to worry about any of the other crap i have to go through. i don't have to worry about doing laundry or meeting my emotional needs or my shitty job or any of that crap. i could just kill myself. the only thing stopping me is me. the only thing that's ever really been stopping me is me, and i _have_ stopped myself, every time. not because i don't want to die - i really, really fucking want to die a lot of the time. because _i want to live_. always.

In Canada, as of last year, they've extended their MAID programme to people with "untreatable mental illness"-- you can literally talk to your doctor about dying because your brain is too broken for you to continue. Of course, this is a topic of ridicule amongst leftists-- "Canada would rather legislate your suicide than housing you". I love MAID, love the idea of its availability, not just because "sometimes I want to die", but because it's more like, oh, great, now I can actually DISCUSS wanting to die, rather than staying silent out of fear of involuntary commitment. 5150'd, as they say in California.

That's a really good point, and true of broader discourse about mental health I think. Maybe I like Laing more than I should but I'm so tired of pathologising the relationships we're expected to have to a dysfunctional world as if every rejection is somehow an illness

Obv the whole horrible shitshow of responses around the lad who self-immolated as a stand against genocide recently has fed into my revulsion