Democratic (Party) Direction

I don’t think “perfection” is necessary. I’m just dem soc and I want to support people who agree with me.

if I lived in Duckworth’s state obviously I’m going to vote for her in the general. Depending on who would be running against her in the primary I may very well support her there, too.

I’m going to vote for Stacey Abrams in November. I will likely end up doing some volunteering as well, same as 2018.

stop the GOP even when they control the executive branch AND legislature*


gah I hate typing on an iPhone

it just feels like a lot to ask women to do, to atone for what are largely the sins of white men

Almost everyone I've referred to is a man. The vast majority of the troops/ghouls/prosecutors/cops I'm talking about displacing are men. Men have traditionally gotten a free pass but the people who gave them that pass also don't care that Harris (or Klobuchar or anyone else) was a prosecutor. They haven't suddenly become police or prison abolitionists. I'm asking prosecutors to atone for the sins of prosecutors, which is a position you have to seek out to start with.

And the atonement I'm asking for, if they believe they're breaking down the corrupt system from the inside, is to stay there and keep doing that.

Maybe in 40 years a wave of progressive prosecutors and AGs will have entrenched themselves across the country and killed cash bail and misdemeanor jail time and we can look at the position in a different light - but that's not what we've got. We've got prosecutorial misconduct, free passes for killer cops unless there's the threat of sustained civil unrest, people being locked up for petty theft and drugs. It's a job whose central duty is putting people in jail playing a leading role in a system that does that far too often and to largely marginalized people.

"Even if they try to reform it" - perhaps, but we don't really have examples of people seeking high office who've done that to look at for guidance. Harris had a mixed record as a DA and a downright lousy one as AG. Had she taken a more progressive stance as AG, she probably wouldn't have become Senator and then Vice President.

If Rollins or Krasner or John Creuzot or etc. do run for Senate, then they can get a spotlight on how much reform they actually sought - but I continue to not really see why we need them.

do people criticize Tammy Duckworth for being an Iraq veteran, even though she unseated a Republican?

Your point returns me to an earlier moment in this thread about paths to power and wealth for women and minorities.

Another path to class stability for many people is joining the military.

Another is becoming a corrections officer.

Afaic, these people don’t get passes, no matter their race, gender, or anything else— and the same goes for prosecutors.

While the law is a field I have problems with, given how it is constructed, I have many lawyer friends and most of them are women. They’re wonderful. But none of them are prosecutors, because I’d sooner spit on a prosecutor than associate with one.

if you’re talking platitudes

^ps pardon my barely intelligible posts itt. meaning the generic you here, obv not *you* felicity.

Somehow I have never ever ever heard centrist dems say “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good” in reference to supporting candidates that are further left than they would like.

And the atonement I'm asking for, if they believe they're breaking down the corrupt system from the inside, is to stay there and keep doing that.

I guess it depends how you define system. And if "staying there" in a role is literally impossible because of term limits, what should they do when they have termed out?

man alive, I wonder whether centering yourself as the "everyman" isn't further underscoring some of my points about perspective.

All of these are good perspectives though. Thank you for the discussion.

Table, your feelings are totally understandable, knowing a bit more where you're coming from!

I think it's important to acknowledge the systems in place that might make people feel like they don't have options other than to, let's say, join the military or become a CO. Those systems ARE real, but if we take the concept of free will at all seriously, so is choice. Plenty of people who live in rural areas where the only major industry is a prison move away or find other realms of employment, and plenty of talented, impoverished people don't join the military because fuck the military. The same can be said for cops, too— cops make tons of money, especially given how little training or schooling is required, but a lot of people don't become cops because they don't want to be cops.

This mostly ties into the conversation because I really do think that there might be good progressive prosecutors, but I can count the ones I know of on two hands. Many of the prosecutors I've had either personal or indirect experience with have been "lower than a snake's asshole," which is how George Carlin describes prosecutors, fwiw. Power-hungry bullies, in other words. Wish our system didn't reward these types of people, but oh well.

there was a major recession when a bunch of my high school friends signed up for the military; not only were they getting laid off every couple of months but their recruiters told 'em it would be a breeze and that they probably wouldn't even see any action

it all turned out to be a lie, of course. I can count on a single finger the number of them that came back from deployment okay. But I don't blame 'em for getting talked into it. I nearly enlisted myself.

I don't blame them, but I also think it's pretty evident that there are other choices available other than joining the military— it's that systems in place, as they are, make it seem like there aren't.

their recruiters told 'em it would be a breeze and that they probably wouldn't even see any action

when there's no war, the recruiters use that line. when there's a war the line changes to how evil the enemy is and how necessary to be part of the great war against evil.

Interesting. I guess I have only ever lived in blue states.

I guess I find this intensely rigid "one strike you're out" policy a bit weird as applied to female politicians who pass through a prosecutorial role work, at a time when women's basic human rights are under such direct and concrete attack.

It is like people may not understand that disparate impact matters as well as disparate intent? Just feels a little overly controlling over women. Like, I feel people should be allowed to change and do better.

Oh and definitely military service is a whole other thing.

Oh and I still am interested in milo's answer to what to do after term limits time out.

I am totally used to being in literally impossible positions, being told repeatedly what I shouldn't do, as many women are, like literally given no options, but somehow at the same time work magically needs to get done. Maybe everyone can relate to this, not just women.

Faulting someone for using a job as a stepping stone when they literally have to vacate the position because of term limits feels a little weird.

Oh and I still am interested in milo's answer to what to do after term limits time out.

I don't know what the answer is supposed to be, because I do not see any situation where there's a loss to humanity because the California AG was term limited and didn't then move on to Governor or Senator. Go back to private practice, spend a life doing penance, whatever. If the CA AG office has at that point become such a positive force in society, go back to work there at a lower level - no term limits for civil service jobs.

I don't think we'll agree on this, felicity, but *I* just feel that representation has a problem wherein the signifier can easily be cleaved from the signified— so that female prosecutor who is Black can certainly represent the interests of Black women, but I've so rarely seen this in practice, and have often seen *the opposite* occur. In a sense, this is related to certain anarchist critiques of identity politics— that of course certain groups are more oppressed in a patriarchal, white supremacist society, and those oppressive forces must be counteracted and those who suffer should be lifted up, but that does not mean that members of oppressed groups can't act badly, *or against the interests of their oppressed brothers and sisters*.

When I was on my table ranting moments a few days ago and was talking about epistemic virtue, this was what I was referencing— I don't think that people can be granted virtue or be seen as having special knowledge *because* of their oppressed status, partly because this just seems like common sense to me, but also because it is wildly tokenizing and infantilizing.

(I should also note that I talk about this stuff a LOT with my husband, who is not white, and am constantly learning and rethinking my own attitudes and biases, conscious or unconscious).

A lot of the political positions espoused in this thread are very thoroughly covered by the old phrase "Easy for you to say."

I want to get personal for a moment.

I was born and raised in Queens. I’ve organized here my entire life.

But one of my opponents (who ran for Congress in another state) is acting like I’m not from here.

She has *twice* sarcastically said to my face, “Welcome to Astoria.”

— Kristen Gonzalez (@Gonzalez4NY) July 8, 2022

Things popping off in NY-59. (Opponent she's talking about is Nomiki Konst)

Yeah a lot of women im America are gonna die from illegal back alley abortions in the near future.

xp

I don't think that people can be granted virtue or be seen as having special knowledge *because* of their oppressed status

I can agree that you might not see this. Since it doesn't matter to you, then why put so much energy into opposing the idea, if you happen not to be in those oppressed categories?

I guess it comes back to the idea of redefining "merit."

xxpost and this chode

Donate to the real progressive candidate who is actually from New York and actually lives in Astoria!!

Vote, volunteer and donate to @NomikiKonst!

Join me in supporting Nomiki Konst via @actblue https://t.co/ChuTFZzmRG

— Josh Fox (@joshfoxfilm) July 6, 2022

Oh thank GOD

Reducing the deficit is one of the main ways we can ease inflationary pressures.

And Joe Biden is on track for the largest deficit cut in history this year: over $1.7 TRILLION. pic.twitter.com/Cbq7qWVNAD

— The Democrats (@TheDemocrats) July 5, 2022

Way to take credit for not getting your spending packages passed

By rejecting his budget Congress didn't give Biden a choice, so he may as well claim it as a victory. It's how the game is played.

The end of the child tax credit increased child poverty by like a third in one month… but hey, trimmed the deficit.

This might just be a dumb post, but I'm not sure I'm following the thread of the Harris convo. Has Harris's past work as a prosecutor hindered her in some way? As a woman of color she has of course had to overcome structural, systemic barriers to her political ambitions (and throughout her life), but have the possibly overly stringent attitudes of leftists regarding prosecutors impacted her as well? I keep stumbling on how the more abstract or personal points being made here are still brought back to the specific example of the current Vice President of the United States—which is an odd role to be sure but indisputably an immensely powerful one—and I feel like I'm missing something, possibly something obvious?

If the point is simply that those stringent attitudes are inequitably applied to marginalized people who manage to achieve political power, that makes sense and is def something to be alert to—is the concern that holding these rigid attitudes will mean fewer women/WOC in politics?

Seems like when any single political issue becomes very important to someone (whether it is representation, the carceral state, or class warfare), the rest of their political opinions become more fungible/incoherent.

That's ok though - I think consistency is overrated, and hypocrisy is universal.

Speaking of incoherent... Ignore me.

rob you are otm

I don't post much here anymore but I have this belief that online discourse is part of the real world, with which I get the sense that people might not agree maybe. As if the topics here are all theoretical and it doesnt matter if women are listened to, because it is not the real world.

I think the point about Harris here was the thread feeling a tad mansplainy just after the earth-shattering Dobbs decision came out.

American women are in an existential death battle for basic rights at the moment. It just felt like a weird time to be getting Ted talks on the prison issue and sentencing guidelines, and weird rules for what women choose to do professionally. So I felt like clapping back a bit, sue me.

Everyone will say, I am not being that guy, but at times the thread has felt a little rude and dismissive to women and I was curious how far some of these positions would go. It is kind of funny - at times I have felt like saying, hey guys. good luck finding the real oppressors(!)

Anyway, if it's not specifically about Harris it is something else specific where it is good for people to engage with facts on the ground. It felt like a good point of entry. Sorry, I do think anyone with the free time to post to ILX so much is probably quite privileged, but it is good when people are able to listen and have some back and forth.

I have this belief that online discourse is part of the real world, with which I get the sense that people might not agree maybe. As if the topics here are all theoretical and it doesnt matter if women are listened to, because it is not the real world.

I think the point about Harris here was the thread feeling a tad mansplainy just after the earth-shattering Dobbs decision came out.

American women are in an existential death battle for basic rights at the moment. It just felt like a weird time to be getting Ted talks on the prison issue and sentencing guidelines, and weird rules for what women choose to do professionally. So I felt like clapping back a bit, sue me.

Everyone will say, I am not being that guy, but at times the thread has felt a little rude and dismissive to women and I was curious how far some of these positions would go. It is kind of funny - at times I have felt like saying, hey guys. good luck finding the real oppressors(!)

Anyway, if it's not specifically about Harris it is something else specific where it is good for people to engage with facts on the ground. It felt like a good point of entry. Sorry, I do think anyone with the free time to post to ILX so much is probably quite privileged,

Agree with all of the above.

Thank you felicity, I appreciate your responding! I am undeniably a privileged person and additionally a US citizen who emigrated to Canada 8 years ago, so I also appreciate the reminder that these discussions are never truly abstract. And good point about the significance of timing too.

I'd also add that the thread prompted me to read more about Harris's prosecutorial career, which I hadn't done before and was more interesting/complicated than I'd realized, so point very much taken about facts on the ground.

_ I don't think that people can be granted virtue or be seen as having special knowledge *because* of their oppressed status _

I can agree that you might not see this. Since it doesn't matter to you, then why put so much energy into opposing the idea, if you happen not to be in those oppressed categories?

I guess it comes back to the idea of redefining "merit."

I’ll also say, if it makes a difference, that I’m definitely a privileged person in many ways, but am currently underemployed while waiting for the school year to start, so that might explain some of my posting tendencies

Way to take credit for not getting your spending packages passed

― F'kin Magnetometers, how do they work? (President Keyes), Friday, July 8, 2022 1:47 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

lol how many Republicans took credit for the ones that did (which they voted against)

i would suspect if harris did not have such a mediocre-to-outright-bad record as DA & AG, and ran on a strong progressive policy platform, then the left would have been more sympathetic to her. that's what it comes down to, it's not about "merit", it's about wanting politicians that support policies the left wants, are willing to fight for them, and have some sort of record that supports that or at least isn't directly opposed to it. being a prosecutor

representation alone is not justice if the minority representatives just uphold the existing power structures

it does feel like harris is kinda being set up to fail by the biden white house though, putting her in charge of reducing asylum seeker numbers is both incredibly difficult and going to be incredibly controversial (to say the least) with the dem base. but her bizarrely inarticulate presence in interviews is entirely her. as VP she is just yet another mediocre dem with no real answers to the current political moment.

oh i forgot to finish a sentence

being a prosecutor is going to be a dealbreaker for a significant portion of the left, but a genuinely good record in the role would go a fair way to alleviate that

I'm curious if you think Harris' actions such as casting the tiebreaking vote to confirm Rollins as U.S. Attorney of Massachusetts and refusing to enforce Proposition 8 while serving as California Attorney General were just upholding existing power structures.

Also, while the job Harris is doing as Vice President should be totally open for critiques, I personally am super uncomfortable seeing the word "inarticulate" used in relation to her "presence."

That particular descriptor has super racialized connotations in America. I feel the need to surface and discourage the use of that word, as it plays into subconscious biases.

both of those actions are good but they're hardly radical & would have been expected of pretty much any dem who isn't firmly on the right of the party in those circumstances. casting a tie-breaking vote along party-lines to support the biden admin's candidate is fairly expected, though certainly it's a very welcome change that the biden administration (including harris) put forward someone like rollins there, that's a better move than many would have expected. i'm not sure a democratic california AG could have gotten away with not opposing prop 8.

That particular descriptor has super racialized connotations in America. I feel the need to surface and discourage the use of that word, as it plays into subconscious biases.

that's fair, i'm not from the US so that connotation didn't occur to me. my apologies.

No apology needed. I enjoy your posts and thought you might not be from the US.

I do take your point that Harris has been unprepared, vague, nervous, giving off weird energy, etc. in her interviews as VP. Personally, I don't mind poor extemporaneous public speaking skills if the person seems like they are trying to be accurate and avoid making statements they will regret or be unable to substantiate. A marked contrast from our last President, who really gave off big "say anything, the more unbelievable the better" energy. But on the substance - yes, it's pretty disappointing she didn't have something more inspirational to say right after Dobbs came out.

yeah, poor public speaking skills can be excused if the substance is still there, but she's regularly only had mediocre platitudes to offer. it's weird because i don't recall her coming across that badly as a speaker in the past.

The Biden Administration and Congressional leadership aren't giving her much to work with beyond mediocre platitudes, can't sell plans that don't exist.

I wasn't too impressed with her own plans during the primary tbh.

Yesterday I announced that, as president, I’ll establish a student loan debt forgiveness program for Pell Grant recipients who start a business that operates for three years in disadvantaged communities. https://t.co/ldwuC9RiIE

— Kamala Harris (@KamalaHarris) July 28, 2019

That one was really memorable as emblematic of the way the Democratic Party tends to kneecap their own policies right out the gate by imposing incredibly specific and confusing requirements that gate access to benefits.

goddamn that looks like parody

Yeah I remember that very clearly being the moment that the idea that Harris is not very good entered my mind.

And it was of particular significance in the moment of that primary, where you had Bernie, a serious contender who, for once, was not proposing all kinds of means-tested-to-death bullshit but universal programs.

Ten of them were fighting to be the not-Bernie/Warren and battling to see who could come up with the most mealy-mouthed centrist garbage to please donors and MSNBC talking heads.

Biden was centrist Bane, he didn't have to adopt means testing and mass incarceration he was born into it.

I read that Gavin Newsom is polling higher than Harris for a theoretical 2024 run.

Also not a fan, but obviously I wound wind up voting for either of them in the general.