what america thinks of what the world thinks of america

Reflecting a bit more on this, my thought was this, I admit unoriginal and undistinguished one: roughly:

Isn't the "beautiful dream of the US" invalidated by the origins of the US, ie: the seizure of land and genocidal war against natives?

I realise that this statement looks obvious. But is it ever taken seriously by the people who say the "beautiful dream" stuff?

I further reflected that a "better America", a road not taken, might have had to be one in which natives generously collaborated with peaceful colonists (refugees, even) and natives had leading or extensive roles in governance, society, culture, demographics, etc -- as if the "Thanksgiving" myth (?) had been taken seriously and enacted.

I suspect that this has been worked through as alternate history by speculative writers.

Frankly I think the noble ideals bit (which plenty of ppl believe about the UK as well btw, despite all evidence to the contrary - magna carta, Edmund Burke, etc.; these aren't foundational ofc but ppl will bring them up for a British exceptionalism) is an overall destructive aspect which consistently prevents countries like the US and France from a sober look at their own realities. Fuck founding ideals to live up to, find value in your fellow humans and try to make life better for them without any of that flag waving bullshit imo.

My viewpoint might, to be fair, be influenced by coming from a country whose only reason for existing is "this Belgian mercenary dude got a county given to him by the king of Castille and decided he wanted it to be a kingdom instead".

The day he quit as PM, Tony Blair said "This is the best country in the world".

I was bemused. He presented no evidence to support this statement.

Tom D: isn't that true of France, the Republic of Ireland and a lot of other places?

Yes.

My viewpoint might, to be fair, be influenced by coming from a country whose only reason for existing is "this Belgian mercenary dude got a county given to him by the king of Castille and decided he wanted it to be a kingdom instead".

Well, the UK only exists because England needed to ensure a Protestant succession to the throne and to bail out Scottish aristocrats who'd pissed away their money trying to set up a colony in Panama (which was a stupid idea but was sabotaged by England anyway).

... when I say bail out what I mean, of course, is bribe.

Every country thinks it’s exceptional, it’s just the powerful ones tend to want the others to share in their self image.

Also, if you set your country up last week I’m interested in hearing about your founding principles but if you’ve been around for centuries what matters is your track record and any special pleading about the loftiness of your unachieved ambition is gaslighting.

FWIW this looks a fair example of what I was talking about:

I’M NOT YET READY TO ABANDON THE POSSIBILITY OF AMERICA

What I can say for certain is that I’m not yet ready to abandon the possibility of America—not just for the sake of future generations of Americans but for all of humankind. I’m convinced that the pandemic we’re currently living through is both a manifestation of and a mere interruption in the relentless march toward an interconnected world, one in which peoples and cultures can’t help but collide. In that world—of global supply chains, instantaneous capital transfers, social media, transnational terrorist networks, climate change, mass migration, and ever-increasing complexity—we will learn to live together, cooperate with one another, and recognize the dignity of others, or we will perish. And so the world watches America—the only great power in history made up of people from every corner of the planet, comprising every race and faith and cultural practice—to see if our experiment in democracy can work. To see if we can do what no other nation has ever done. To see if we can actually live up to the meaning of our creed.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/barack-obama-i-still-believe-america/617073/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAzEY1MfXrQ