Chapo Trap House and the rise of the dirtbag left

and is it even ethical to support an insurgency that has no real chance of ousting the occupiers? doesn't that just prolong the conflict? as american citizens, what should we be demanding? there are real questions here and the chapo guys just sort of clown on newspaper columnists.

We're not Ukrainians, right? What role are 'we' supposed to play here and how? Okay, Ukraine doesn't want to be a proxy state of Russia, how are American leftists supposed to play a role in enabling that desire? Support arms shipments? What is the right way to concern oneself with this?

how can one resist american imperialism without supporting the imperial ambitions of other states?

Step one should be accepting that other states have ambitions (imperial or not...) and that we (whether 'we' means leftists, Americans, the US/EU axis, NATO, etc.) don't get to stop them. The base problem with complaints about, say, DSA's response to this or 'leftists' in general or whatever is that there's a tacit demand of picking a side. Opposing NATO expansion isn't "supporting Russia's imperial ambitions" it's trying to bring about a world that isn't a constant dick-measuring contest between reactionary nuclear superpowers.

because they believe they have some kind of natural right to dominate this part of the world

do you think your fucking country have been any fucking better in latin america since aiding and abetting the first fascist coup in brazil in '37 and on on and on and on blah blah blah CIA sponsored death squads.. chile ..nicaragua .. oh fuck it I can't be arsed. You are completely full of shit, pal.

no i don't

It seems like the conclusion is that the most moral stance is not to have any power. As long as we don’t affect anything we can’t do wrong.

Who's "we"? The United States? Yes, the planet would be better off with the US having less power and generally not 'doing things.'

"who's we?" is a good question. what we need is a better internationalism -- one that is able to address global issues such as climate change. US hegemony is a barrier to this, but so would be different countries duking it out for regional power the way they were in the beginning of the 20th century.

can't believe you didn't find any answers to the weighty foreign policy questions of the day on the podcast chapo trap house

they should at least try to address this stuff.

Seemed like an entire episode addressing this stuff, though. Just no good answers about 'what is to be done' and you know, sometimes there are no good answers to that question. 'Regional powers duking it out' is a reality, what the last month has laid bare is that there isn't a mechanism to halt that - but the global hegemon trying desperately to maintain its place can wreak a lot of bonus havoc trying and failing to do so.

personally I wouldn't be interested in their answers, but that's just me...maybe try this pod instead?

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/american-prestige/id1574741668

The modern European order pretty much rests on that hegemon, and relatively enthusiastically so. I guess in the end it means fuckall what we think, and the left probably has less influence on foreign policy than anything else, but I find it hard to take that lightly and just say "oh well, Russia's going to dominate Europe now, liberal social democracies were fun while they lasted."

xp I like Davison but wasn't he just on Chapo insisting Russia wasn't going to invade Ukraine? Will still give his post-invasion show a listen.

'The Europeans like it, though' is not a particularly compelling reason for us to pay for strategic bombers on Diego Garcia and troops in South Korea rather than having a functioning civil society, IMO.

can you guys please quarantine the ukraine talk to the bad thread I’m not going to read?

I usually hate the “we wrote a script for tv/political drama” shtick from the live show excerpts but I’ll allow the CTH guys this recent one for that excellent clip of Walton Goggins

let's not talk about ukraine on a thread about a show that just had an episode about ukraine

hey, do as you will, I’m just making a request

There were other claims on the show that particularly bothered me too, for example Felix's repetition that the US had somehow "gassed up" Ukraine for this conflict. As though people wouldn't care about being invaded/taken over by Russia if the US hadn't engaged in some kind of psyop to make them think fighting for their homeland is worth it.

I’m just thankful that these dangerous horseshoe theorists aren’t the president or secretary of state or get inches in the paper of record or offered standing invites as ‘experts’ on every cable news channel. you know, like people who supported the Iraq invasion.

I haven't listened to This Is Sus... Is it assumed that the listener HAS watched these shows or HASN'T watched these show? Some of them, like Oz or Homeland seem like they're regular wheelhouse PRESTIGE TEEVEE things, and then others it's like ironic normie TV, and then it's like didn't everyone get excited about Nashville so which is it?

It started out as What Pseudo-Prestige TV Says About Us (kind of) and then seems to have morphed into Felix watching bad TV and recapping it.

The live show episodes are the absolute worst sales pitch for buying a ticket to see them on tour.

i thought the live show bits from the other week were alright but the audience participation stuff this week was painful, particularly the guy whose podcast pitch was about how he was one of the cool fans of the show, not like those other fans. Kind of grim to think that those ideas were the best that the audience had to offer.

The tv recaps are kind of a grab bag. I’ve never watched Homeland and the way it was broken down would probably work better for someone who’s watched some episodes. Kind of trashy propaganda-filled thriller with weird character arcs is how they ended up describing it.

The La Brea episode is a strong warning to not watch the show unless you want to see absolutely terrible television and it’s mostly goofing on how bad the show is

I don’t think I listened to a CTH episode about Oz, but hoo boy was that show ever a proto-prestige show. I watched it when it aired and it’s funny how they hit so many things that would be later hallmarks of prestige television, but also just had wild trash flying out of every plot device

xxp I forgot I had even played this. It's a yikes my dude.

Oz’s trash ones and insanity actively thwart binge watching. More than two episodes in 48 hours and your brain starts to melt.

Trashiness

What were the original “prestige” shows? The Sopranos? Sex and the City?

Sopranos for sure. even tho it was network feels like West Wing was in the running

The West Wing/Homicide/NYPD Blue were all pointing that way but Sopranos is the first one that really had that "it's a NOVEL but on TV" air to it IMO.

yeah totally. i should watch Homicide and the Shield at some point.

I had a bootleg DVD set once upon a time but Homicide has never gone up for streaming anywhere AFAIK, it's a shame

Twin Peaks

Yeah Twin Peaks may be the grandfather of the genre.

Hill Street Blues afaik

Miami Vice and Crime Story gotta fit in there somewhere, too

If we’re going to keep going backwards, then—-
Twilight Zone

I think one defining thing about “prestige tv” is the season long (or show long) story arc, so not sure Twilight Zone would count.

I guess Black Mirror isn’t Prestige then

Season-long arcs and when you watch it you feel smarter than the schmoes watching normal TV are the primary requirements.

Definitely also shows that dominate media discourse way out of proportion to their viewership numbers. Josh Fruhlinger on Twitter a couple years ago was pointing out how millions more people watch, like CBS old-people bait like NCIS than Mad Men but all “the discourse” is about the latter.

The Prisoner fits most of the qualifications.

I finally cancelled my patreon. Time for these guys to get a real job.

I think the official modern prestige era, if you accept that The Sopranos kind of bridged from proto- to actual-prestige tv, is The Wire. (You can just count The Sopranos, idk whatever)

Which lines up with Homicide being a precursor

the general critical line is that Sopranos, The Wire, and Deadwood are the initial trinity of prestige TV, and so I think one of the hallmarks is that prestige TV should be About Something Bigger, as well as having this more uniformly high level of acting, directing, and creative control. Twin Peaks definitely stands apart from other TV at the time and has Lynch's creative stamp on it, but the acting and directing...varies, and it was famously subject to the demands of ABC executives. The Prisoner kind of qualifies, but most of the episodes barely contribute to the story arc. Twin Peaks and Homicide seem like the shows where there was a real conflict between the show's potential and the demands of network TV, rather than just issues with the standards and practices department.

If miniseries count then I'd say that Roots and Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy would be the closest to prestige TV pre-90s.

Right I always got the impression that prestige tv shows no matter when and where they are set we’re meant to be “It’s About America Today don’t you see”

The "it's about AMERICA" thread in The Sopranos is my least favorite aspect of it. I mean, obviously it's about America, but whenever they try to work in larger commentary about foreign policy or that sort of thing.

I like season two of the Wire because the Sobotkas/union guys/Greeks are good characters on their own but Frank's "we used to BUILD SHIT" asides are a bit on the nose.

What I really loved about Deadwood and The Wire is how much they were shows about entire communities; The Sopranos had a bit of that + in depth psychological analysis of one individual character, and then shows like Mad Men and Breaking Bad explored that second aspect to the extent that it now seems to be the prestige TV default. I know Simon got rightfully clowned for saying The Wire was "more like a novel" but I do wish more TV shows had that sprawling 19th century novel feel to them with dozens of characters.