ok what the fuck is happening in ukraine

seems to me that anything that might stop the war crimes would be good tho

― Ár an broc a mhic (darraghmac), Tuesday, March 8, 2022 12:20 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

sure but I can understand why the Ukrainian government may not be eager to give up too much in exchange for a "peace agreement" which Russia will inevitably break in 5 years

Maybe as an act of good will Russia will promise not to invade again for between 4-7 years.

Peace at any price, lads!

"it is a real fucking mess, because of course there are neo-nazis in the ukraine military. there are neo-nazis in the US military too, and also in the russian military. some of the information coming out about neo-nazis in ukraine's military must be true. some of it is definitely not true, either through misinformation or disinformation."

It's not hard. The reason it's being talked about as regards to the Ukraine is that guns and funding are being sent there. There are members of far-right groups here who have gone over there and they are receiving training.

Yes, Alice in Wonderland, but do you know WHY far right groups in Ukraine became so popular, and will now inevitably receive some of the weapons "flooding" into Ukraine for reasons you've seen fit to not mention? What could possibly have caused all this instability, what kind of extractive empire on the borders of Ukraine could possibly have had anything to do with the rise of right-wing nationalism in Ukraine?

It starts with "R" and ends with "say NATO expansion one more goddamn time."

xp xyz

right, i get that now. i've been learning about it too, i didn't mean to suggest there's no problem with it. it's fucked up that they're an officially recognized batallion (Azov).

"Rsay NATO expansion one more goddamn time" ?

Stalin doesn't begin with an R I don't think.

Rhetorically speaking, do I dare say NATO expansion one more goddamn time?

The critical dynamic at work in this war is that Russia is a nuclear power and therefore its government can defend itself against any external military force which might threaten its existence. Ukraine cannot militarily defeat Russia on its own and because of the MAD doctrine, NATO cannot risk making direct war against Russia over its war crimes.

MoominTrollin is otm that it is solely up to Ukraine, its government and its citizens, to defend their nation in whatever way seems best to them. So long as they wish to resist, we should give them material support, but not join in militarily.

The answer is Russia, and that I'm tired of everyone who talks about this war inevitably bringing up NATO expansion and Azov batallion. 44 million people are fighting for their country's right to exist, period, against a fascist invader, with fascist goals, using fascist rhetoric, and now fascist symbols.

If you want to talk about Nazis or NATO whenever Ukraine is brought up, I see you and your priorities.

Not less than a year ago xyzzz was posting patriotic Palestinian songs on here, but now they're really uncomfortable with the rise of extremism in Ukraine. Perhaps Russia should send its forces to liberate the Gaza strip from its remaining buildings and the "extremists" holding out there among civilians.

whoa, i think that was a weird place to take that in the final paragraph there.

At least be honest about who you are, account who hasn’t posted ever before this thread.

ok what the fuck is happening in ukraine thread

I have been lurking here for years. I signed up in 2004 but that ID is long gone by now. And no, I don't actually support Russia bombing Palestinians. I'm saying that focusing on extremists in a movement of national liberation is like bringing up Hamas/Hezbollah every time someone talks about Israel/Palestine. And I remember the Palestinian song posting because, once again, I was lurking in that thread reading everybody's reactions.

I'm not a stalker guys, I'm sorry that you don't know me and I am bringing up people's past positions, but if you like, I can bring up Morbz and how much I miss him, even though he probably would have been fiercely disagreeing with me right this moment.

i was going to say otm earlier, when you said

"It's not for me - or any of you - to decide what the "right" time is for THEM to stop the war. Especially given that Russia can stop it and pull out its forces at any moment. No one is "forcing" them to shell cities or kill civilians or fight a war of imperialist aggression."

and i also take your point about being annoyed by how, in some quarters, the existence of Azov (which obviously is bad!) seems to dominate while criticism of anything Russia is doing is rarely mentioned. i think i was just complaining about that upthread. i have a friend who posted over three dozen instagram stories yesterday about Azov.

but there is no reason to switch to a hypothetical about killing palestinians and then connecting it to someone's care for those same people

I thought it might be useful for you all to get a perspective from someone who grew up at the heart of the Soviet empire (once again, in Moscow) and has spent his life reading about the history of his former country, its various empires, and their effect on Europe and beyond.

I am ashamed and disgusted by Russia's actions now because it is my country and my "people" who are currently committing these war crimes.

I apologize if I came off as unhinged, I am obviously extremely angry due to my personal connection to this, and will bow out until order is restored in the Ukraine thread. I support peace in this posting space - at any price.

xp

nothing wrong with lurking imo, but getting things started off with something like that + having trollin in your name is going to be bad, probably.

If you paid as much attention to xyzzzz as you claim, you might have understood something about his discomfort about fascists in the UK being trained and armed by fascists in Ukraine under cover of the righteous cause for liberation. There is a lot more backing up his disquiet about that but I won’t divert the thread to UK politics. I believe that is the only point he’s trying to make and if you were serious about any of this, I find it extremely suspicious that you latch onto his and darraghmac’s posts - darraghmac like myself ofc from a country where we know all about making painful bargains for peace against a more powerful imperial aggressor- and not a word about the repeated trivialising of the suffering of ordinary Ukrainians and repeated diversions into US politics. But we all have our own focuses.

The Moomin Trolls were a series of popular childrens' stories in the USSR (Russia being somewhat close to their Scandinavian origins). It is also the name of my Twitter account, I did this on purpose so that if someone wants to know my positions or inclinations beyond the odd forum post, they would be able to find them elsewhere.

"Yes, Alice in Wonderland, but do you know WHY far right groups in Ukraine became so popular, and will now inevitably receive some of the weapons "flooding" into Ukraine for reasons you've seen fit to not mention? What could possibly have caused all this instability, what kind of extractive empire on the borders of Ukraine could possibly have had anything to do with the rise of right-wing nationalism in Ukraine?"

So we are now justifying the existence of hard right groups in the UKraine as a gotcha.

If the Azov regiment becomes the major effective military force resisting the Russian occupation of Ukraine, then it will be a good time to demand that our own nations withdraw material support, rather than arm and train neo-Nazis. As of now, they are only a part of a much wider popular resistance.

"Not less than a year ago xyzzz was posting patriotic Palestinian songs on here, but now they're really uncomfortable with the rise of extremism in Ukraine."

The Palestinians are fighting for
liberation, rights and a home that are denied to them. How is this the same from what I'm talking about?

@xyzzzz

http://crimethinc.com/2022/02/15/war-and-anarchists-anti-authoritarian-perspectives-in-ukraine

I'm sorry xyzzz, that was not an exact parallel as they are, like you said, stateless at the moment.

Why have you given me that link? (I will read it later)

I gave it to you to read so you could hear something about the Azov batallion and the political situation in Ukraine post-Maidan. From someone other than me.

Table posted that link ages ago, and honestly I found it really enlightening. Definitely worth a read, xyzzzz. It doesn't have any decisive answers but that's mainly because there *aren't* any decisive answers.

Btw MoominTrollin, you almost weren't let in because of having 'trollin' in your name, my reasoning was "it's a perfectly serviceable pun but if someone has troll in the name they're probably a troll".

I understand and will take some time off, take some deep breaths and calm down before coming back to this thread. Sorry for the confusion: I like puns, but it is not my intention to troll.

Any chance you could respond to my post before you do so?

i also found the crimethinc link helpful when Table posted it. it painted what at least felt like a very plausible portrait of a complexly factional situation and its shifting dynamics.

Just to say that "I think this scenario would prob avoid the most bloodshed and as such would be best" is not the same as "I believe I have the moral authority to tell the Ukranian people how they should proceed", though I understand how it could be read that way.

xposts

@gyac

You are correct to be worried about UK fascists training in Ukraine with fascists and "bringing back" those skills to your homeland. I agree with you 100% on this and was mainly talking about the frequent use of "Azov" as a catch-all for concern trolling about Ukraine. Especially when the Russia-based Wagner group is making waves in Ukraine currently, and the (former) commander Strelkov got his start in wartorn Yugoslavia running with Serbian death squads, and post-USSR Russian wars like Transnistria and Chechnya. The rot of former empires presents many opportunities for these kinds of abhorrent personalities to emerge and thrive. The weapons left behind by both Yugoslavia and the USSR also figured hugely in the atrocities which were committed on these lands.

Thank you, I appreciate this very much! I was also interested in the second part of my post (wrt anti-imperialism as it pertains to people from areas that were formally part of an empire, as in fact several of us that have been targets of your posts are).

Frequent use of "Azov" as a catch-all for concern trolling about Ukraine. Haven't noticed reference to "Azov" as catch-all, also don't see any concern "trolling," and nobody's said "peace at any price," or that Ukraine should have a settlement forced on them, though your use of "my people" in quotes seems appropriate, since concern about Azov is what brings you out of the shadows.

I am honestly not sure exactly what you meant. I do not at *all* mean to trivialize the suffering of ordinary Ukrainians or claim to speak *for* them (beyond my obvious negative views re: Russian imperialism/irredentism/fascism). Hence my main point that this is THEIR decision to make.

Whatever I might feel about "liberating" Ukraine from "Russian imperialism" is immaterial if the majority of Ukrainians are willing to stop the war now, to accept a Ukrainian rump state, or simply the total occupation of the country. I might think it's bad or would lead to a worse situation but it's not my decision to condemn, especially when (as you point out) real people are out there suffering.

I don't think I made any forays into American politics unless you mean me being sick of hearing "NATO expansion." My main problem with the NATO line is that it ignores literally hundreds of years of history and even decades of history leading up to this moment, where NATO did not seem to play a crucial role re: Russian motivations. For instance when Bush foolishly talked about Ukraine/Georgia joining NATO in 2008, months before the Georgia war, there was little popular support in Ukraine for NATO, and protests in Kyiv against joining.

I think the ramp-up of Putin's unique brand of "Make Russia Great Again" has been portrayed as a reaction to NATO whereas he's basically been doing this of his own accord rather than being "forced" into a given position, let alone a war like this. NATO, in his eyes, seems to be a force that may stop him from doing his own "Iraq 2003" type wars of choice, rather than a threat to Russian security. And Ukraine, in his eyes, seems to be an economic/cultural issue (kick their ass, take their gas, make them Russians before it's too late). His main problem with the West seems to be that America got to "do" Iraq but he can't "do" this.

OK you said you were going to take a break, so do that.

@dow By "my people" I meant Russians. I am Russian. I put it in quotes because I do not want to associate with a great deal of said people in Russia at the moment, for reasons which should be obvious. If you think I am defending the Azov battalion or covering for it, I cannot prove the reverse, and I cannot ask you to take my position on faith or trust me. We'll just have to disagree.

I am obviously more concerned with Russian Nazis, Russian fascism, and Russian imperialism, because I used to live there and it's the place where I learned about The Great Patriotic War and fighting fascists to begin with. It is a tragedy, but also an emotional gut punch, that this country, with its legacy, is now trying to turn its citizens into the same kind of fascists they were once so proud of defeating.

xp no harm for you to do the same, Dow.

MoominTrollin, just v briefly as I want to stop posting itt myself. I was meaning your remarks about “peace at any price” which seemed to have been prompted by darraghmac’s posts. Dmac & I are both Irish so our context is that our history is very much about making painful concessions for peace, it is nothing to do with whatever other motive you ascribed but just asking you to remember that not everyone itt is an American and that the Ukrainian position is terrible but also very understandable to us.

My second point was just about the deluge of bad content posted to this thread by Americans and did not relate to you, except that I found it interesting that you seized upon the posts I mentioned and not those which I thought to be more tasteless ito being armchair general nonsense, uninformed, or both. Sometimes I think people post itt like they’re watching a film, and sometimes I also think people from the country with enough nukes to vaporise us all a million times over could stand to consider about crimes being done in their name too. But that’s really it, I promise.

@gyac Both good points. I certainly didn't mean to single out Irish posters in particular. Adding "lads" did not, alas, help my point. Making painful concessions for peace, in this context, makes more sense. I also have no problem being against, or focusing on, American bad takes re: this war. Thanks for your replies.

To paraphrase some Roman dude quoting some Greek dude:

"Each one of us is allotted his own brand of foolishness. But we never look into the knapsack of nonsense on our own back."

I will take a good look right now.

could stand to consider about crimes being done in their name too

I would assume most of the Americans posting ITT (myself included) opposed Iraq, Libya, don't like us arming the Saudis against Yemen, etc.

i value your perspective itt. it's not like this thing isn't full of questionable takes by folks that have no idea what they are talking about (me included) xp

spouse just picked up a family (grandmother, mom and her little son) from Ukraine at the train station and are staying the night at least. Said the scene at the train station was heartbreaking.

N+1 with more exceptional Ukraine coverage. Dispatch from a Russian journalist in Odessa, which originally ran in Novaya Gazeta. Reminds me of the work of the great Belarusian journalist Svetlana Alexievich in how she kind of recedes into the background and lets people's voices carry the story:

https://www.nplusonemag.com/online-only/online-only/sandbagging-in-odessa/

seconded, great piece and a more intimate perspective

This seems like the kind of thing a great power confident of its inevitable decisive victory does, right?

Russia has suspended the sale of foreign currencies until September 9, the central bank said Wednesday.
Between March 9 and September 9 "the banks will not be able to sell foreign currencies to citizens." (AFP)
All ruble convertibility is over. Putin has destroyed the ruble.

— Anders Åslund (@anders_aslund) March 8, 2022

And with VISA pulling out... will we get back to the wheel barrows full of worthless notes to buy a loaf of bread?

Discussion about sanctions, incl. before this apparently unprecedented level (one guest says they're up to level 7 or 8 now). Host points out that US Gov officials paid a call on Nicholas Maduro last weekend, inquiring about possible replacements for Russian oil, and that Venezuela has been sanctioned for quite a while now. Also some questions about targeting oligarchs vs. general public. NY Times reporter gives rationale:
So even though what Putin had done in order to, in a sense, sanction proof Russia, was build up a huge pile of reserves in foreign currency, and foreign currency exchange reserves. And $643 billion. But, you know, roughly half of that, even though it's owned by Russia, is essentially under the control of banks in the U.S. and Europe and Canada, et cetera. And so those assets are frozen.

"... Now, this is an incredibly powerful tool, and I've spoken to some economists who actually say, If you use this tool and it destabilizes or brings a collapse of the currency, the Russian ruble, you know, you can literally destroy an economy and that we should be careful about how far we want to take this Well yeah.
That's the only part transcribed so far, but whole podcast is here:
https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2022/03/08/economic-war-and-russia-ukraine-conflict-sanctions

S-'s link is for donating directly to the Ukranian military to help with buying weapons, quite a different thing than bandcamp charities for children affected by the war and such I think.

― Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, 8 March 2022 10:25 (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Not true. 'My' government (among many others) is donating the "lethal aid": https://www.pm.gov.au/media/australian-support-ukraine

Armia SOS main call is for bandages, then helmets and bulletproof vests. https://armysos.com.ua/en/

In that respect it is the same as the 'Return Alive' fund mentioned in Ned's first Bandcamp charity link! https://www.comebackalive.in.ua/

More about xpost letter Z as currently used by some Russians:
https://www.aol.com/news/why-letter-z-become-russia-214940443.html