ok what the fuck is happening in ukraine

Not that they'll do it, but this would be a good opportunity to push/accelerate/fund alternative energy sources. Infrastructure!

you know it won't happen that way.

I turned on the Maddow show last night and heard an ex-General saying that since Putin regards sanctions as an act of war then there's no difference between sanctions and a no-fly zone as far as sparking a war, so we should just go ahead and do the latter. Like there are literally military guys itching for nuclear war on lib TV with zero pushback.

Not that they'll do it, but this would be a good opportunity to push/accelerate/fund alternative energy sources. Infrastructure!

a short response to that is on the US politics thread.

one of my oldest anarcho friends has been posting non-stop about neo-nazis in the ukraine military for the last week and is now accusing all of his friends, as well as facebook in general, of being neo-nazis because they're not speaking out about it enough. so that's been fun.

it is a real fucking mess, because of course there are neo-nazis in the ukraine military. there are neo-nazis in the US military too, and also in the russian military. some of the information coming out about neo-nazis in ukraine's military must be true. some of it is definitely not true, either through misinformation or disinformation. i don't have any far-right friends who care about europe or russia, but the frustrating thing among my friends on the left is that they post 100% of the neo-nazi ukraine military stuff that they find, seemingly without even looking at it themselves or thinking about it, and then when it turns out to be a doctored photo from 6 years ago, there is no retraction or apology or change in course, it's just the same, like nothing happened.

anyway, that, too, is for another thread.

The dynamic you're describing sounds genuinely bad, but I think it's a bit disingenuous to equate the neo-nazis in the ukraine mil with those in the usa's; the countries' histories are v different. Not that I think the problem of neo-nazis in the us or canadian or etc. military should be ignored

But don't listen to me, I'm continually surprised people have the energy & determination to have such strong takes on this war

yeah, i didn't mean to equivocate: obviously it's a stronger presence in Ukraine and various groups and countries have been trying to get Ukraine to disband the neo-nazi regiment for years:

In June 2015, both Canada and the United States announced that their own forces will not support or train the Azov regiment, citing its neo-Nazi connections.

The following year, however, the US lifted the ban under pressure from the Pentagon.

In October 2019, 40 members of the US Congress led by Representative Max Rose signed a letter unsuccessfully calling for the US State Department to designate Azov as a “foreign terrorist organisation” (FTO). Last April, Representative Elissa Slotkin repeated the request – which included other white supremacist groups – to the Biden administration.

Transnational support for Azov has been wide, and Ukraine has emerged as a new hub for the far right across the world. Men from across three continents have been documented to join the Azov training units in order to seek combat experience and engage in similar ideology.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment

yeah, i didn't mean to equivocate

but yeah, i guess i did, even if i didn't mean to. i fucking suck. i hate that everything on this thread is monitored and then discussed by a small group before they deliver the counterattack. everything fucking sucks

I turned on the Maddow show last night and heard an ex-General saying that since Putin regards sanctions as an act of war then there's no difference between sanctions and a no-fly zone as far as sparking a war, so we should just go ahead and do the latter. Like there are literally military guys itching for nuclear war on lib TV with zero pushback.

I saw some of Lawrence O'Donnell's show and he was openly musing about what would happen once Putin sent the signal to blow up America, like whether Biden would inform people the missiles are coming or what. obviously he was quite somber about it but this shit can't be good for people's mental health right now. it certainly isn't good for mine. the idea that we should just start shooting down planes because Putin said sanctions are an "act of war" is so dangerously stupid. Putin thinks everything is an act of war. I just don't see how us getting involved is going to lead to any less suffering. The best we can do is make Putin unpopular in his country and directly fucking them up seems like it might have the opposite effect

xp
you don't suck! it's just hard to talk about complex/contradictory stuff on social media, he said unhelpfully

nah, that helps, it does. it's really easy to step it in, these days, is another way of putting it

step in it, i meant.

*goes back to land of humiliation*

as president of the land of humiliation, i hope you've brought your papers*

*these are polka dot underwear worn over your pants

excuse me, can a mod please remove the "the" before "land of humiliation" in my post? oof, i've done it again.

As a former Moscow bureau chief for @nytimes, I am saddened to report that we are pulling our journalists from Russia.
Here is a statement from @meslackman, assistant managing editor, to the company. pic.twitter.com/TGrb2w2wqB

— Cliff Levy (@cliffordlevy) March 8, 2022

Latest discussion online seems to be: should Ukraine accept a peace deal which involves ceding parts of the country to Russia, and agreeing never to join NATO and the EU?

Not for me to judge, but some UK socialists are saying: yes, they should.

Even if all shooting stopped now, the physical state of the country - all those destroyed homes and cities - would be appalling. I suppose Ukraine would receive a lot of Western aid to rebuild.

What part of the deal would ensure that Russia doesn't just grab a bit more land next year?

Yeah! Would Putin obey that, and for how long, under what conditions? I've heard a few interviewers ask Ukraineans about that, and, so far, responses are along the lines of,"If you shake the Russian's hand, he'll take your arm." Also, whatever you give back, to make a deal, and for the sake of normalcy, looks like a reward, and it is, meanwhile enormous efforts to rebuild whatever he's allowed losers to retain.
Also, last night, I heard a BBC World Service interviewer ask a Ukrainean---could.nt catch the name or anything about her---if a no-fly zone could accomplish that much, since Russian forces are mostly ground at this point---since it was shitty local radio relay, couldn't catch much of her answer, except that she disagreed---thoughts about no-fly efficacy---?

U.K. oil and gas major Shell will "withdraw from its involvement in all Russian hydrocarbons" in a phased approach, the company announced Tuesday.
...It also plans to shut service stations, aviation fuels and lubricants operations in Russia, and start a "phased withdrawal from Russian petroleum products, pipeline gas and [liquefied natural gas]."

Last week Shell said it would cut ties with the Russia-to-Germany Nord Stream 2 pipeline project and exit joint ventures with Russian gas giant Gazprom.

The company came under fire on Friday for purchasing a cargo of Russian crude oil at a steep discount, for which it publicly apologized after being accused of helping fund Russia's war in Ukraine.

"In close consultation with governments, we are changing our crude oil supply chain to remove Russian volumes," van Beurden added. "We will do this as fast as possible, but the physical location and availability of alternatives mean this could take weeks to complete and will lead to reduced throughput at some of our refineries."
https://www.politico.eu/article/shell-to-divest-from-all-russian-oil-and-gas/

But Saudi Arabia bombs the shit out of Yemen every day and I don't see Shell Oil.. oh nevermind

xps I guess the cost to russia to have achieved whatever could be agreed would have to be weighed in?

hasn't Russia negotiated and broken a ceasefire 3 days in a row now? who would want to negotiate with them when they're committing literal war crimes?

as a bold piece of rhetoric yeah i hear you

seems to me that anything that might stop the war crimes would be good tho

xp the people actually being shelled, possibly

I'd like full verification but

Stripping units from Sakhalin and the Kurils and sending them 9,800 km to Ukraine means the war is going well for Russia, right? https://t.co/ZjprCbsGWS

— Fred of Fred Hall (@LesserFrederick) March 8, 2022

The risk isn’t really a future land grab, imo, it’s that any settlement along those lines would necessarily require Russia to exercise a measure of control over all future Ukrainian governments, either through some kind of electoral mechanism similar to Lebanon or Bosnia where power will, constitutionally, always be split between factions (with Russia controlling one of the factions) or through an overt threat of war any time a Ukrainian government did anything considered to be against the spirit of the negotiated peace. Neither of those things would lead to any form of domestic stability.

Zelenskiy needs a plausible peace he can sell domestically or Ukraine would have to move to something close to the Belarus model of no real democracy and enormous internal repression.

Former citizen of the USSR, a Russian who grew up in Moscow, and an American who's not pleased with the clown show of left/right bad takes on Ukraine currently.

I'm not sure where the "peace at any price" people on this board are getting their information from, but at the very least they do not speak for current Ukrainian attitudes regarding this war.

At minimum, either a majority of Ukrainians or Zelensky himself, ideally both, are required for Ukraine to negotiate any kind of surrender, "peace at any price," or return to peace with the old status quo: Crimea belongs to Russia, the Donbas is autonomous/independent. I will not comment in this post about just how terrible such a 'peace' would be, because:

a rush to peace right now by Zelensky would topple his government; a rush to peace by Ukrainians themselves WITHOUT Zelensky would require a national uprising AGAINST a war that is currently extremely popular and emotional in the eyes of most Ukrainians. It has united them as never before.

I understand if you're against war on principle and support "anything to stop the suffering," but please don't kid yourself that somehow the people that don't want "peace at any price" are willing to sit at home cheering on the war and "fighting to the last Ukrainian" for a Pyrrhic victory. I would gladly stop talking shit and accept any peace offer, even complete surrender and loss of statehood, if that's what enough people or their government wanted. It's not for me - or any of you - to decide what the "right" time is for THEM to stop the war. Especially given that Russia can stop it and pull out its forces at any moment. No one is "forcing" them to shell cities or kill civilians or fight a war of imperialist aggression.

But this war is not about that, and never has been, and all the tut-tutting about "stopping the suffering" seems to be part of a West-centered narrative that's more concerned with calling out "NATO expansion" or "American imperialism." Meanwhile, good old Russian imperialism is going for round 3 after the Russian empire and the Soviet empire failed to stick.

Once more, for the cheap seats: I would gladly stop talking shit and accept any peace offer, even complete surrender and loss of statehood, if that's what enough people or their government wanted. I would do it today and never post on here again, preferring to lurk in peace instead.

seems to me that anything that might stop the war crimes would be good tho

― Ár an broc a mhic (darraghmac), Tuesday, March 8, 2022 12:20 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

sure but I can understand why the Ukrainian government may not be eager to give up too much in exchange for a "peace agreement" which Russia will inevitably break in 5 years

Maybe as an act of good will Russia will promise not to invade again for between 4-7 years.

Peace at any price, lads!

"it is a real fucking mess, because of course there are neo-nazis in the ukraine military. there are neo-nazis in the US military too, and also in the russian military. some of the information coming out about neo-nazis in ukraine's military must be true. some of it is definitely not true, either through misinformation or disinformation."

It's not hard. The reason it's being talked about as regards to the Ukraine is that guns and funding are being sent there. There are members of far-right groups here who have gone over there and they are receiving training.

Yes, Alice in Wonderland, but do you know WHY far right groups in Ukraine became so popular, and will now inevitably receive some of the weapons "flooding" into Ukraine for reasons you've seen fit to not mention? What could possibly have caused all this instability, what kind of extractive empire on the borders of Ukraine could possibly have had anything to do with the rise of right-wing nationalism in Ukraine?

It starts with "R" and ends with "say NATO expansion one more goddamn time."

xp xyz

right, i get that now. i've been learning about it too, i didn't mean to suggest there's no problem with it. it's fucked up that they're an officially recognized batallion (Azov).

"Rsay NATO expansion one more goddamn time" ?

Stalin doesn't begin with an R I don't think.

Rhetorically speaking, do I dare say NATO expansion one more goddamn time?

The critical dynamic at work in this war is that Russia is a nuclear power and therefore its government can defend itself against any external military force which might threaten its existence. Ukraine cannot militarily defeat Russia on its own and because of the MAD doctrine, NATO cannot risk making direct war against Russia over its war crimes.

MoominTrollin is otm that it is solely up to Ukraine, its government and its citizens, to defend their nation in whatever way seems best to them. So long as they wish to resist, we should give them material support, but not join in militarily.

The answer is Russia, and that I'm tired of everyone who talks about this war inevitably bringing up NATO expansion and Azov batallion. 44 million people are fighting for their country's right to exist, period, against a fascist invader, with fascist goals, using fascist rhetoric, and now fascist symbols.

If you want to talk about Nazis or NATO whenever Ukraine is brought up, I see you and your priorities.

Not less than a year ago xyzzz was posting patriotic Palestinian songs on here, but now they're really uncomfortable with the rise of extremism in Ukraine. Perhaps Russia should send its forces to liberate the Gaza strip from its remaining buildings and the "extremists" holding out there among civilians.

whoa, i think that was a weird place to take that in the final paragraph there.

At least be honest about who you are, account who hasn’t posted ever before this thread.

ok what the fuck is happening in ukraine thread

I have been lurking here for years. I signed up in 2004 but that ID is long gone by now. And no, I don't actually support Russia bombing Palestinians. I'm saying that focusing on extremists in a movement of national liberation is like bringing up Hamas/Hezbollah every time someone talks about Israel/Palestine. And I remember the Palestinian song posting because, once again, I was lurking in that thread reading everybody's reactions.

I'm not a stalker guys, I'm sorry that you don't know me and I am bringing up people's past positions, but if you like, I can bring up Morbz and how much I miss him, even though he probably would have been fiercely disagreeing with me right this moment.

i was going to say otm earlier, when you said

"It's not for me - or any of you - to decide what the "right" time is for THEM to stop the war. Especially given that Russia can stop it and pull out its forces at any moment. No one is "forcing" them to shell cities or kill civilians or fight a war of imperialist aggression."

and i also take your point about being annoyed by how, in some quarters, the existence of Azov (which obviously is bad!) seems to dominate while criticism of anything Russia is doing is rarely mentioned. i think i was just complaining about that upthread. i have a friend who posted over three dozen instagram stories yesterday about Azov.

but there is no reason to switch to a hypothetical about killing palestinians and then connecting it to someone's care for those same people

I thought it might be useful for you all to get a perspective from someone who grew up at the heart of the Soviet empire (once again, in Moscow) and has spent his life reading about the history of his former country, its various empires, and their effect on Europe and beyond.

I am ashamed and disgusted by Russia's actions now because it is my country and my "people" who are currently committing these war crimes.

I apologize if I came off as unhinged, I am obviously extremely angry due to my personal connection to this, and will bow out until order is restored in the Ukraine thread. I support peace in this posting space - at any price.

xp

nothing wrong with lurking imo, but getting things started off with something like that + having trollin in your name is going to be bad, probably.

If you paid as much attention to xyzzzz as you claim, you might have understood something about his discomfort about fascists in the UK being trained and armed by fascists in Ukraine under cover of the righteous cause for liberation. There is a lot more backing up his disquiet about that but I won’t divert the thread to UK politics. I believe that is the only point he’s trying to make and if you were serious about any of this, I find it extremely suspicious that you latch onto his and darraghmac’s posts - darraghmac like myself ofc from a country where we know all about making painful bargains for peace against a more powerful imperial aggressor- and not a word about the repeated trivialising of the suffering of ordinary Ukrainians and repeated diversions into US politics. But we all have our own focuses.

The Moomin Trolls were a series of popular childrens' stories in the USSR (Russia being somewhat close to their Scandinavian origins). It is also the name of my Twitter account, I did this on purpose so that if someone wants to know my positions or inclinations beyond the odd forum post, they would be able to find them elsewhere.

"Yes, Alice in Wonderland, but do you know WHY far right groups in Ukraine became so popular, and will now inevitably receive some of the weapons "flooding" into Ukraine for reasons you've seen fit to not mention? What could possibly have caused all this instability, what kind of extractive empire on the borders of Ukraine could possibly have had anything to do with the rise of right-wing nationalism in Ukraine?"

So we are now justifying the existence of hard right groups in the UKraine as a gotcha.

If the Azov regiment becomes the major effective military force resisting the Russian occupation of Ukraine, then it will be a good time to demand that our own nations withdraw material support, rather than arm and train neo-Nazis. As of now, they are only a part of a much wider popular resistance.

"Not less than a year ago xyzzz was posting patriotic Palestinian songs on here, but now they're really uncomfortable with the rise of extremism in Ukraine."

The Palestinians are fighting for
liberation, rights and a home that are denied to them. How is this the same from what I'm talking about?

@xyzzzz

http://crimethinc.com/2022/02/15/war-and-anarchists-anti-authoritarian-perspectives-in-ukraine