ok what the fuck is happening in ukraine

I can't say that I have, but I've been picking up a slew of charity/donation releases lately, especially on the just passed Bandcamp Friday, thus:

https://standard-deviation.bandcamp.com/album/together-for-ukraine

https://homenormal.bandcamp.com/album/places-for-peace

https://chitrarecords.bandcamp.com/album/pacification

https://ochildren.bandcamp.com/album/9-live-in-kyiv

https://bspliveseries.bandcamp.com/album/bsp-live-series-2021-09-04-kharkiv

https://post-dreifing.bandcamp.com/track/sunflower-seeds

Details about where the funds go to found on each page (O. Children being the slight exception but I'm sure they've got something planned.)

Another one here

https://chuckjohnson.bandcamp.com/track/carpathia

S-'s link is for donating directly to the Ukranian military to help with buying weapons, quite a different thing than bandcamp charities for children affected by the war and such I think.

I mentioned some time ago on here that the Ukranian army is crowdfunding, which I still find a bizarre and afaict unprecedented development. Logistically I can't imagine it making much of a difference (is it a PR move to shame Western nations into contributing more, maybe?) but also I've never even seen this kind of initiative suggested in leftist circles for, say, Palestinian or Kurdish armed struggle...and am pretty sure that if I did somehow come upon a fund related to that, I'd be getting a call from my bank as soon as I tried donating.

fwiw a czech friend has donated and thinks I should, too, seeing Western squeamishness at financing violence as the privilege of someone in a territory that isn't under threat. But by that same account, I am also uncomfortable with financing violence that I have zero possibilities of being affected by.

This must have been peak Davos brain pic.twitter.com/qjMstWrgE1

— Will Davies (@davies_will) March 8, 2022

I mentioned some time ago on here that the Ukranian army is crowdfunding, which I still find a bizarre and afaict unprecedented development.

i think it isnt a stretch to say that this is just an online version of the "for the cause" collections that have been a feature of (surely?) many guerilla campaigns in history, certainly IRA fundraising was not a new thing when i was born

Not sure collecting money for "the lads" at a pub in Kilburn at the end of Saturday night is quite the same.

im not sure its any different!

but say then rather the sinn fein jaunts to the states, i mean thats no different imo

Quite a few neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army so no thanks.

not saying ito approval saying ito "this is a new and remarkable thing"

Looks like this is happening

SCOOP: US to ban imports of Russian oil, sources tell @annmarie @SalehaMohsin and me. White House announcement as soon as TODAY.

— Jennifer Jacobs (@JenniferJJacobs) March 8, 2022

IRA funding from the US is close I guess but still on less official/public standing than this, I think?

jesus dont look at me im saying nothing wink wink

Yep: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/08/biden-bans-russian-oil-imports/

Not that they'll do it, but this would be a good opportunity to push/accelerate/fund alternative energy sources. Infrastructure!

you know it won't happen that way.

I turned on the Maddow show last night and heard an ex-General saying that since Putin regards sanctions as an act of war then there's no difference between sanctions and a no-fly zone as far as sparking a war, so we should just go ahead and do the latter. Like there are literally military guys itching for nuclear war on lib TV with zero pushback.

Not that they'll do it, but this would be a good opportunity to push/accelerate/fund alternative energy sources. Infrastructure!

a short response to that is on the US politics thread.

one of my oldest anarcho friends has been posting non-stop about neo-nazis in the ukraine military for the last week and is now accusing all of his friends, as well as facebook in general, of being neo-nazis because they're not speaking out about it enough. so that's been fun.

it is a real fucking mess, because of course there are neo-nazis in the ukraine military. there are neo-nazis in the US military too, and also in the russian military. some of the information coming out about neo-nazis in ukraine's military must be true. some of it is definitely not true, either through misinformation or disinformation. i don't have any far-right friends who care about europe or russia, but the frustrating thing among my friends on the left is that they post 100% of the neo-nazi ukraine military stuff that they find, seemingly without even looking at it themselves or thinking about it, and then when it turns out to be a doctored photo from 6 years ago, there is no retraction or apology or change in course, it's just the same, like nothing happened.

anyway, that, too, is for another thread.

The dynamic you're describing sounds genuinely bad, but I think it's a bit disingenuous to equate the neo-nazis in the ukraine mil with those in the usa's; the countries' histories are v different. Not that I think the problem of neo-nazis in the us or canadian or etc. military should be ignored

But don't listen to me, I'm continually surprised people have the energy & determination to have such strong takes on this war

yeah, i didn't mean to equivocate: obviously it's a stronger presence in Ukraine and various groups and countries have been trying to get Ukraine to disband the neo-nazi regiment for years:

In June 2015, both Canada and the United States announced that their own forces will not support or train the Azov regiment, citing its neo-Nazi connections.

The following year, however, the US lifted the ban under pressure from the Pentagon.

In October 2019, 40 members of the US Congress led by Representative Max Rose signed a letter unsuccessfully calling for the US State Department to designate Azov as a “foreign terrorist organisation” (FTO). Last April, Representative Elissa Slotkin repeated the request – which included other white supremacist groups – to the Biden administration.

Transnational support for Azov has been wide, and Ukraine has emerged as a new hub for the far right across the world. Men from across three continents have been documented to join the Azov training units in order to seek combat experience and engage in similar ideology.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment

yeah, i didn't mean to equivocate

but yeah, i guess i did, even if i didn't mean to. i fucking suck. i hate that everything on this thread is monitored and then discussed by a small group before they deliver the counterattack. everything fucking sucks

I turned on the Maddow show last night and heard an ex-General saying that since Putin regards sanctions as an act of war then there's no difference between sanctions and a no-fly zone as far as sparking a war, so we should just go ahead and do the latter. Like there are literally military guys itching for nuclear war on lib TV with zero pushback.

I saw some of Lawrence O'Donnell's show and he was openly musing about what would happen once Putin sent the signal to blow up America, like whether Biden would inform people the missiles are coming or what. obviously he was quite somber about it but this shit can't be good for people's mental health right now. it certainly isn't good for mine. the idea that we should just start shooting down planes because Putin said sanctions are an "act of war" is so dangerously stupid. Putin thinks everything is an act of war. I just don't see how us getting involved is going to lead to any less suffering. The best we can do is make Putin unpopular in his country and directly fucking them up seems like it might have the opposite effect

xp
you don't suck! it's just hard to talk about complex/contradictory stuff on social media, he said unhelpfully

nah, that helps, it does. it's really easy to step it in, these days, is another way of putting it

step in it, i meant.

*goes back to land of humiliation*

as president of the land of humiliation, i hope you've brought your papers*

*these are polka dot underwear worn over your pants

excuse me, can a mod please remove the "the" before "land of humiliation" in my post? oof, i've done it again.

As a former Moscow bureau chief for @nytimes, I am saddened to report that we are pulling our journalists from Russia.
Here is a statement from @meslackman, assistant managing editor, to the company. pic.twitter.com/TGrb2w2wqB

— Cliff Levy (@cliffordlevy) March 8, 2022

Latest discussion online seems to be: should Ukraine accept a peace deal which involves ceding parts of the country to Russia, and agreeing never to join NATO and the EU?

Not for me to judge, but some UK socialists are saying: yes, they should.

Even if all shooting stopped now, the physical state of the country - all those destroyed homes and cities - would be appalling. I suppose Ukraine would receive a lot of Western aid to rebuild.

What part of the deal would ensure that Russia doesn't just grab a bit more land next year?

Yeah! Would Putin obey that, and for how long, under what conditions? I've heard a few interviewers ask Ukraineans about that, and, so far, responses are along the lines of,"If you shake the Russian's hand, he'll take your arm." Also, whatever you give back, to make a deal, and for the sake of normalcy, looks like a reward, and it is, meanwhile enormous efforts to rebuild whatever he's allowed losers to retain.
Also, last night, I heard a BBC World Service interviewer ask a Ukrainean---could.nt catch the name or anything about her---if a no-fly zone could accomplish that much, since Russian forces are mostly ground at this point---since it was shitty local radio relay, couldn't catch much of her answer, except that she disagreed---thoughts about no-fly efficacy---?

U.K. oil and gas major Shell will "withdraw from its involvement in all Russian hydrocarbons" in a phased approach, the company announced Tuesday.
...It also plans to shut service stations, aviation fuels and lubricants operations in Russia, and start a "phased withdrawal from Russian petroleum products, pipeline gas and [liquefied natural gas]."

Last week Shell said it would cut ties with the Russia-to-Germany Nord Stream 2 pipeline project and exit joint ventures with Russian gas giant Gazprom.

The company came under fire on Friday for purchasing a cargo of Russian crude oil at a steep discount, for which it publicly apologized after being accused of helping fund Russia's war in Ukraine.

"In close consultation with governments, we are changing our crude oil supply chain to remove Russian volumes," van Beurden added. "We will do this as fast as possible, but the physical location and availability of alternatives mean this could take weeks to complete and will lead to reduced throughput at some of our refineries."
https://www.politico.eu/article/shell-to-divest-from-all-russian-oil-and-gas/

But Saudi Arabia bombs the shit out of Yemen every day and I don't see Shell Oil.. oh nevermind

xps I guess the cost to russia to have achieved whatever could be agreed would have to be weighed in?

hasn't Russia negotiated and broken a ceasefire 3 days in a row now? who would want to negotiate with them when they're committing literal war crimes?

as a bold piece of rhetoric yeah i hear you

seems to me that anything that might stop the war crimes would be good tho

xp the people actually being shelled, possibly

I'd like full verification but

Stripping units from Sakhalin and the Kurils and sending them 9,800 km to Ukraine means the war is going well for Russia, right? https://t.co/ZjprCbsGWS

— Fred of Fred Hall (@LesserFrederick) March 8, 2022

The risk isn’t really a future land grab, imo, it’s that any settlement along those lines would necessarily require Russia to exercise a measure of control over all future Ukrainian governments, either through some kind of electoral mechanism similar to Lebanon or Bosnia where power will, constitutionally, always be split between factions (with Russia controlling one of the factions) or through an overt threat of war any time a Ukrainian government did anything considered to be against the spirit of the negotiated peace. Neither of those things would lead to any form of domestic stability.

Zelenskiy needs a plausible peace he can sell domestically or Ukraine would have to move to something close to the Belarus model of no real democracy and enormous internal repression.

Former citizen of the USSR, a Russian who grew up in Moscow, and an American who's not pleased with the clown show of left/right bad takes on Ukraine currently.

I'm not sure where the "peace at any price" people on this board are getting their information from, but at the very least they do not speak for current Ukrainian attitudes regarding this war.

At minimum, either a majority of Ukrainians or Zelensky himself, ideally both, are required for Ukraine to negotiate any kind of surrender, "peace at any price," or return to peace with the old status quo: Crimea belongs to Russia, the Donbas is autonomous/independent. I will not comment in this post about just how terrible such a 'peace' would be, because:

a rush to peace right now by Zelensky would topple his government; a rush to peace by Ukrainians themselves WITHOUT Zelensky would require a national uprising AGAINST a war that is currently extremely popular and emotional in the eyes of most Ukrainians. It has united them as never before.

I understand if you're against war on principle and support "anything to stop the suffering," but please don't kid yourself that somehow the people that don't want "peace at any price" are willing to sit at home cheering on the war and "fighting to the last Ukrainian" for a Pyrrhic victory. I would gladly stop talking shit and accept any peace offer, even complete surrender and loss of statehood, if that's what enough people or their government wanted. It's not for me - or any of you - to decide what the "right" time is for THEM to stop the war. Especially given that Russia can stop it and pull out its forces at any moment. No one is "forcing" them to shell cities or kill civilians or fight a war of imperialist aggression.

But this war is not about that, and never has been, and all the tut-tutting about "stopping the suffering" seems to be part of a West-centered narrative that's more concerned with calling out "NATO expansion" or "American imperialism." Meanwhile, good old Russian imperialism is going for round 3 after the Russian empire and the Soviet empire failed to stick.

Once more, for the cheap seats: I would gladly stop talking shit and accept any peace offer, even complete surrender and loss of statehood, if that's what enough people or their government wanted. I would do it today and never post on here again, preferring to lurk in peace instead.

seems to me that anything that might stop the war crimes would be good tho

― Ár an broc a mhic (darraghmac), Tuesday, March 8, 2022 12:20 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

sure but I can understand why the Ukrainian government may not be eager to give up too much in exchange for a "peace agreement" which Russia will inevitably break in 5 years

Maybe as an act of good will Russia will promise not to invade again for between 4-7 years.

Peace at any price, lads!

"it is a real fucking mess, because of course there are neo-nazis in the ukraine military. there are neo-nazis in the US military too, and also in the russian military. some of the information coming out about neo-nazis in ukraine's military must be true. some of it is definitely not true, either through misinformation or disinformation."

It's not hard. The reason it's being talked about as regards to the Ukraine is that guns and funding are being sent there. There are members of far-right groups here who have gone over there and they are receiving training.

Yes, Alice in Wonderland, but do you know WHY far right groups in Ukraine became so popular, and will now inevitably receive some of the weapons "flooding" into Ukraine for reasons you've seen fit to not mention? What could possibly have caused all this instability, what kind of extractive empire on the borders of Ukraine could possibly have had anything to do with the rise of right-wing nationalism in Ukraine?

It starts with "R" and ends with "say NATO expansion one more goddamn time."

xp xyz

right, i get that now. i've been learning about it too, i didn't mean to suggest there's no problem with it. it's fucked up that they're an officially recognized batallion (Azov).

"Rsay NATO expansion one more goddamn time" ?

Stalin doesn't begin with an R I don't think.

Rhetorically speaking, do I dare say NATO expansion one more goddamn time?

The critical dynamic at work in this war is that Russia is a nuclear power and therefore its government can defend itself against any external military force which might threaten its existence. Ukraine cannot militarily defeat Russia on its own and because of the MAD doctrine, NATO cannot risk making direct war against Russia over its war crimes.

MoominTrollin is otm that it is solely up to Ukraine, its government and its citizens, to defend their nation in whatever way seems best to them. So long as they wish to resist, we should give them material support, but not join in militarily.