ok what the fuck is happening in ukraine

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sorry 4 apocalypseposting lol

imago, Sunday, 27 February 2022 13:50 (four years ago)

Ok, I’m starting to get kinda terrified now

Using nukes makes no sense, then again invading Ukraine didn’t either and I don’t exactly trust Putins judgment right now

frogbs, Sunday, 27 February 2022 15:42 (four years ago)

I saw elsewhere that Putin can’t launch nukes on his own and a general would need to sign off/follow through (I’m not sure of what actual steps are involved). But I don’t think anyone is going to want to be a part of mass murder on that scale (launching an attack and then dying along with the rest of Russia/civilization) simply because Putin’s war isn’t going well.
NATO soldiers (hypothetically) marching into Russian territory is when I’d start thinking it’s a concern.

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Sunday, 27 February 2022 15:48 (four years ago)

sorry but i lol’d

Same energy. pic.twitter.com/U72AUEzjsA

— Eddie Burfi (@EddieBurfi) February 27, 2022

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 27 February 2022 15:50 (four years ago)

I get anxious about nukes, too, but the nukes have been there all along. Their implicit threat is part of their purpose, no matter who wields them.

Meanwhile:

This is a huge deal. Russia will inevitably retaliate and shut its airspace to Canada, which cuts off many of the great circle routes that go over the top of the world.

It also puts a measure of pressure on the US to do the same. https://t.co/icTCtUQKs9

— Oren Liebermann (@OrenCNN) February 27, 2022

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 27 February 2022 15:54 (four years ago)

This is all based on fog of war, incomplete info etc but so far it is feeling like a lot of people, including myself, and including Russia itself, overestimated Russia’s military capabilities. Putin is good at playing a weak hand strong and it’s starting to feel like he did that here, hoping the Ukrainian govt would just fold and he could quickly March to Kyiv and install a puppet (with “democratic” approval of the people of Ukraine at some point after). I am afraid to be too sure of anything with the nuclear threat looming, with the possibility that much more indiscriminate attacks on civilians could be launched, etc. But I can’t see so far that any strategic aim is being achieved and Russia’s invasion is looking haphazard and confused.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 27 February 2022 15:57 (four years ago)

people are claiming the US and nato won't do anything if russia does launch a nuclear warhead because it has 6000 of them, which is enough to destroy the entire world. i guess these same people think putin would rather destroy the entire world if he can't annex ukraine

also i do wonder how easy it is for those in charge of launching the nuke to accidentally launch it, kind of like the flawed design and poor handling in chernobyl

and a team associated with princeton have mocked up one scenario:

https://sgs.princeton.edu/the-lab/plan-a

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jy3JU-ORpo

in that scenario, the safest places to be would be latin america, africa, south asia and austrlia. arguably, it might be safe to be in canada, but major cities being so close to the US border would undoubtedly cause some damage, as a handful of warheads would be directed at all major US cities, including seattle

Punster McPunisher, Sunday, 27 February 2022 16:23 (four years ago)

Don't think we need to have "what if nukes go off accidentally" chat right now.

Daniel_Rf, Sunday, 27 February 2022 16:37 (four years ago)

thank you

STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Sunday, 27 February 2022 16:40 (four years ago)

Quite. My only thought as such is that if the talk about this from Putin being aimed more domestically is true (and I'd buy that) then that in of itself is a crazy situation because -- if you're just a Russian normie who watches domestic news etc -- in the space of a week your leader has publicly gone, in full broadcast/TV speeches, from "gotta a little problem here that history demands we address, just a heads up" to "could the Ukrainian armed forces please depose their leader" to "don't worry we've got nukes." Which...might not universally read well.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 27 February 2022 16:41 (four years ago)

⚡️⚡️#Georgian sailors refused to refuel the Russian ship

The flashmob is very interesting. Every #Russian ship should hear this phrase anywhere in the world. pic.twitter.com/ApJsVKMKFa

— NEXTA (@nexta_tv) February 27, 2022

ian, Sunday, 27 February 2022 16:50 (four years ago)

At the end of the day, I think Putin's one non-negotiable goal is maintaining his grip on power. As has been mentioned in this thread, he can live with being a pariah on the world stage and debilitating sanctions, as long as he can maintain his grip on power. In some ways, isolation may enable him to enact ever more draconian social controls. The only question is if there is any credible threat of an internal coup or a determined popular uprising that could threaten his grip on power. I think underneath all of his long-winded historic analysis of the Ukraine-Russian relationship as justification for his policies, perhaps the core of his fear and hatred of the Ukrainian regime stems from the fact that it resulted from a popular uprising, which is probably one of the only possible threats he perceives to his power. I think he has already made the calculation that sanctions will be a wash. They will cause more grumbling, but will also give him justification for a more isolated and totalitarian Russian state. He may be surprised by how quickly sanctions have ratcheted up. As an amoral autocratic sociopath, one thing he may have trouble anticipating is how quickly widespread moral outrage can shift the behavior of democratic governments. By all accounts, sanctions are getting much more severe than anyone anticipated at this stage. That means threats of further sanctions lose their effectiveness, but its not clear if they had much effect anyway. As has been mentioned, his reluctance to cause massive civilian casualties is probably more a factor of domestic political repercussions than fears of sanctions.

o. nate, Sunday, 27 February 2022 16:54 (four years ago)

For those who don't speak Russian, at the end, the Russian ship complains that they're about to run out of fuel one more time, and the Georgians tell them to break out the ores and start rowing.

🔥 🔥 🔥

— Artem Russakovskii 🇺🇦 (@ArtemR) February 27, 2022

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 27 February 2022 16:54 (four years ago)

so far it is feeling like a lot of people, including myself, and including Russia itself, overestimated Russia’s military capabilities

People have been overestimating Russia in almost every realm for decades IMO. Russia is a very large, very poor country that is still somehow able to present a veneer of wealth and power*, mostly because of the credulity of mediots.

*yes, this is true of the US as well but the US is richer and more powerful, with more allies, bought and paid-for though they might be.

but also fuck you (unperson), Sunday, 27 February 2022 17:17 (four years ago)

huge breaking news at BP:

- BP to exit its 20% stake in Russian oil giant Rosneft

- BP chief executive Bernard Looney to resign from board of Rosneft with immediate effect

— Jim Pickard (@PickardJE) February 27, 2022

dig your way out of the shit with a gold magic shovel! (Karl Malone), Sunday, 27 February 2022 17:19 (four years ago)

First, we are shutting down the EU airspace for Russian-owned, Russian registered or Russian-controlled aircraft.
 
They won’t be able to land in, take off or overfly the territory of the EU.
 
Including the private jets of oligarchs. pic.twitter.com/o551M9zekQ

— Ursula von der Leyen (@vonderleyen) February 27, 2022

Putin, personally, might not care, but millions of other people certainly must care. And what could Putin possibly do to change any of this at this point, anyway, besides make more threats? All these sanctions and punishments and restrictions rolling in, it's not like they're going to be or even can be reversed overnight, can they? Even if he brings all his troops home tonight he has amplified the international distrust of his leadership 100 fold. At this point he might as well get Kim Jong-un's current address, because he's going to be limited to a few close penpals on the global scale.

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 27 February 2022 17:26 (four years ago)

As has been mentioned, his reluctance to cause massive civilian casualties is probably more a factor of domestic political repercussions than fears of sanctions.

― o. nate, Sunday, 27 February 2022 16:54 (twenty-six minutes ago) link

I took it more to be a function of his strategic aims in Ukraine (which are failing anyway). He wanted to install a puppet with a veneer of democratic support from Ukrainians. Leveling half of Ukraine wasn't really going to serve that goal. It turns out neither did invading.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 27 February 2022 17:27 (four years ago)

Hope this thread is good.

Just here to drop a tweet/thread that gets at why so much analysis of what would/will happen from professional foreign policy analysts is worse than useless, and professional foreign policy is terrible.

Interesting, reflective thread on how/why so many Russia and foreign policy experts were so wrong in their predictions about Ukraine, while military analysts, broadly, were more correct.

One key difference is paying attention to costly signals: interpreting the force build-up. https://t.co/Z8CQZpJ844

— zeynep tufekci (@zeynep) February 25, 2022

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Sunday, 27 February 2022 17:31 (four years ago)

Military analysts generally looked at the scale of forces arrayed against Ukraine and said this was too big to signal anything but war. It certainly looks like they were right.

I mean ...

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 27 February 2022 17:33 (four years ago)

Putin is finished, but the unravelling might take quite a while, and will probably also entail reducing Kyiv to rubble. I just can't see this ending in any way that is not horrible.

― Zelda Zonk, Sunday, February 27, 2022

I agree with most of that post, except for the first three words.

What would count as evidence that Putin is, or indeed is not, 'finished'?

He's a dictator with massive power over one of the biggest superpowers in world history, which has the capacity to kill everyone on the planet. I don't think I see him not being in post for a few more years. In that sense, it doesn't seem accurate to say he is 'finished'.

However, I hope that the post is correct and I am wrong.

the pinefox, Sunday, 27 February 2022 17:38 (four years ago)

Any time I see a 'it's over for Putin' sentiment in the wild I think to myself "You know, Hitler wasn't alone in the bunker for months there."

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 27 February 2022 17:41 (four years ago)

Peat — it’s good for sequestering carbon, and enemy tanks*.

*near Sumy, Ukrainepic.twitter.com/rFaXFAsyjH

— David Ho (@_david_ho_) February 27, 2022

Reminds me of stories of Germans pushing into Russia, constantly pausing to free their tanks.

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 27 February 2022 17:41 (four years ago)

xpost Yeah, "finished" takes time. Having recently read "The Rise and Fall ..." I was shocked how early the author noted events that signaled Hitler's inevitable end, and how long it still took to come to pass. Of course, Hitler was a lunatic with divergent genocidal goals, so he was a little distracted.

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 27 February 2022 17:44 (four years ago)

I hope that Ukrainians can either blow up those tanks, or somehow requisition them and use them.

the pinefox, Sunday, 27 February 2022 17:48 (four years ago)

What’s in that tweet there? I can’t see it without a Twitter acc’t. I’m assuming tanks stuck in a swamp?!

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Sunday, 27 February 2022 17:55 (four years ago)

Yes - in a field of peat.

the pinefox, Sunday, 27 February 2022 17:58 (four years ago)

First, this is a deterrence action against the west, both conventionally and western sanctions. It's a big 'keep out' sign, not a real intent to escalate to nuclear force or aimed at ukr.

— Pwn All The Things (@pwnallthethings) February 27, 2022

found this useful

Ár an broc a mhic (darraghmac), Sunday, 27 February 2022 18:03 (four years ago)

New: EU commission chief announces it will “ban the Kremlin’s media machine in the EU,” among other measures.
 
“The state-owned RT and Sputnik, and their subsidiaries, will no longer be able to spread their lies to justify Putin’s war [and] toxic and harmful disinformation” pic.twitter.com/FaX48ONSPU

— Vera Bergengruen (@VeraMBergen) February 27, 2022

deep luminous trombone (Eazy), Sunday, 27 February 2022 18:10 (four years ago)

I took it more to be a function of his strategic aims in Ukraine (which are failing anyway). He wanted to install a puppet with a veneer of democratic support from Ukrainians. Leveling half of Ukraine wasn't really going to serve that goal. It turns out neither did invading.

Good point. He may also be worried that his army might actually refuse to carry out such orders. If any of these social media videos of ordinary Ukrainians interacting with Russian soldiers are real, then it seems the morale of these young Russian soldiers ordered to carry out mass attacks on civilians, of people who share a common language and many cultural ties, might start to show cracks.

o. nate, Sunday, 27 February 2022 18:17 (four years ago)

I'm flabbergasted at the analysts who have been following Putin for decades, admitted that they did not see this invasion coming at all, but still think they can predict his next actions ("he's going after Estonia next" etc)

StanM, Sunday, 27 February 2022 18:27 (four years ago)

I can't imagine why Ukraine doesn't surrender and try to work on some kind of compromise here- very valiant but do they think they are going to stand any better chance than Iraq did when U.S. invaded?

| (Latham Green), Sunday, 27 February 2022 18:42 (four years ago)

iraq hadnt a friendly eu to one side

Ár an broc a mhic (darraghmac), Sunday, 27 February 2022 18:43 (four years ago)

why didnt the three little pigs surrender to the big bad wolf surely it would have worked out ok for them

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 27 February 2022 18:46 (four years ago)

Whatever else is going on, this ain't good.

Kyiv’s mayor says the city is now completely surrounded and all exits blocked by Russian troops. No way to evacuate civilians.

Siege begins. pic.twitter.com/eND142bcuR

— Polina Ivanova (@polinaivanovva) February 27, 2022

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 27 February 2022 18:51 (four years ago)

some bits from Echo of Moscow:

- the office of the prosecutor general of russia threatened to charge russian citizens who donate to ukrainian military with treason
- russian ministry of defence insists civilian sites and civilians are not being targeted
- roskomnadzor (federal service for supervision of communications, information technology and mass media) threatened to block russian media sites who publish information from sources other than russian and who refer to what is happening as "war"

(Echo of Moscow continues to refer to it as war* with an asterisk being explained as "roskomnadzor considers information about targeting ukrainian cities and deaths of civilians as the result of the actions of russian military as not reflecting reality, including any materials where the operation is referred to as an attack, an invasion or a declaration of war)

scanner darkly, Sunday, 27 February 2022 18:58 (four years ago)

Well I would say Ukraine is the pig in the straw house that is bein gblown down.

WHat kind of world is this? It's kind of crap!

| (Latham Green), Sunday, 27 February 2022 18:58 (four years ago)

A data point for the "at what cost" file:

Russian bank Tinkoff now offering to exchange rubles for dollars at a rate of 171 rubles per dollar. It was 83 before the European/US announcement about targeting the Russian central bank. Currency market formally opens tomorrow. This is brutal. pic.twitter.com/NsTBI4tvTZ

— Paul Sonne (@PaulSonne) February 27, 2022

but also fuck you (unperson), Sunday, 27 February 2022 19:00 (four years ago)

So if Trump was prez he would be saying "Good job Putin" ? That would be weird. I'm sure other nato people woudl be sad.

| (Latham Green), Sunday, 27 February 2022 19:07 (four years ago)

I don’t think so. I think he’d ultimately follow the defense establishment line notwithstanding his personal boner for strongmen

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 27 February 2022 19:16 (four years ago)

I honestly can’t imagine trump tuning on Putin. I don’t see his personal cost analysis favouring what he can get by turning his back on him vs the benefit of sticking by Russia.

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Sunday, 27 February 2022 19:35 (four years ago)

⚡️Russian Chief of the General Staff, Valery Gerasimov, reportedly fired today. Gerasimov was very highly regarded, the most important military leader of the past generation, & the architect of today’s Russian Armed Forces. He’s served as the head of the military since 2012. pic.twitter.com/zlEVbCPvZ1

— Alexander S. Vindman (@AVindman) February 27, 2022

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 27 February 2022 19:41 (four years ago)

Or maybe not? There seems to be a lot of disagreement in the comments.

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 27 February 2022 19:41 (four years ago)

Yeah I'm not buying that until I see more on the matter.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 27 February 2022 19:43 (four years ago)

Separately, my brain died

Confirmed.

Volodymyr Zelensky is the Ukrainian voice of Paddington Bear. https://t.co/HuXsoSQe7e

— Franklin Leonard (@franklinleonard) February 27, 2022

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 27 February 2022 19:44 (four years ago)

Upside I guess if this was PUtin's last mistake - he is toppled - and we see a post-Putin Russia t last

| (Latham Green), Sunday, 27 February 2022 19:44 (four years ago)

i see you’re a glass 1% full kind of a person

scanner darkly, Sunday, 27 February 2022 19:46 (four years ago)

Isolated autocrats who have iron-fistedly crushed all organized opposition don't usually need that much to hang onto power, if literally all they want to achieve is hanging onto power.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 27 February 2022 19:51 (four years ago)

I honestly can’t imagine trump tuning on Putin. I don’t see his personal cost analysis favouring what he can get by turning his back on him vs the benefit of sticking by Russia.

― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Sunday, February 27, 2022 2:35 PM (sixteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Except I don't think he ever really did that much for Russia while president, mostly just blustery talk. The defense establishment's position didn't really change during that time, and Trump never actually bucked it.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/20/630659379/is-trump-the-toughest-ever-on-russia

"When you actually look at the substance of what this administration has done, not the rhetoric but the substance, this administration has been much tougher on Russia than any in the post-Cold War era," said Daniel Vajdich, senior fellow at the Atlantic Council.

Take military spending: Trump sought to add $1.4 billion for fiscal year 2018 to the European Deterrence Initiative — a military effort to deter Russian aggression that was initially known as the European Reassurance Initiative. That's a 41 percent increase from the last year of the Obama administration. The president also agreed to send lethal weapons to Ukraine — a step that Obama resisted. And Trump gave U.S. forces in Syria more leeway to engage with Russian troops.

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"Those loosened rules of engagement have resulted in direct military clashes with Russian militants and mercenaries on the ground, actually resulting in one incident in hundreds of casualties on the Russian side," Vajdich said.

The administration has also imposed sanctions on dozens of Russian oligarchs and government officials. And Trump has aggressively promoted U.S. energy exports, although so far that hasn't created much competition for Russia's oil and gas.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 27 February 2022 19:53 (four years ago)

Russian media accidentally posted an article about Russian victory
https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html

Below comes machine translation, but I think the point will be clear.

"The offensive of Russia and the new world"

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era - and in three dimensions at once. And of course, in the fourth, internal Russian. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system - but this is worth talking about separately a little later.

Russia is restoring its unity - the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe in our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a great cost, yes, through the tragic events of a virtual civil war, because now brothers, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies, are still shooting at each other, but there will be no more Ukraine as anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness, gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together - in its entirety of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, if we had allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, then we would not only betray the memory of our ancestors, but would also be cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.

Vladimir Putin has assumed, without a drop of exaggeration, a historic responsibility by deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian question to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia - for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost for the West to put pressure on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, the complex of national humiliation - when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then was forced to come to terms with the existence of two states, not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon their history, agreeing with the crazy versions that "only Ukraine is the real Russia," or to gnash one's teeth helplessly, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine." Returning Ukraine, that is, turning it back to Russia, would be more and more difficult with every decade - recoding, de-Russification of Russians and inciting Ukrainian Little Russians against Russians would gain momentum. And in the event of the consolidation of the full geopolitical and military control of the West over Ukraine, its return to Russia would become completely impossible - it would have to fight for it with the Atlantic bloc.

Now this problem is gone - Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be reorganized, re-established and returned to its natural state of part of the Russian world. Within what boundaries, in what form will the alliance with Russia be consolidated (through the CSTO and the Eurasian Union or the Union State of Russia and Belarus)? This will be decided after the end is put in the history of Ukraine as anti-Russia. In any case, the period of the split of the Russian people is coming to an end.

And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era - it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting in geopolitical terms as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage - the West sees the return of Russia to its historical borders in Europe. And he is loudly indignant at this, although in the depths of his soul he must admit to himself that it could not be otherwise.

Did anyone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin, seriously believe that Moscow would give up Kyiv? That the Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control of European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only thanks to the unification of Germany, which took place according to the good Russian (albeit not very smart) will. To swipe after that also on Russian lands is not even the height of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe in particular, did not have the strength to keep Ukraine in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. In order not to understand this, one had to be just geopolitical fools.

More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it did not work should have been clear twenty years ago. And already fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even the deaf could hear - Russia is returning.

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for the fact that it returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, for not allowing the expansion of the western space to the east. Seeking to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this has not been the case for a long time - the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No amount of Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. Losses from the sublimation of confrontation will be on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, an increase in the degree of confrontation incurs huge costs - and the main ones are not at all economic.

Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy - the German project of European integration does not make strategic sense while maintaining the Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. Yes, and it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But Europe needs autonomy for another reason as well — in case the States go into self-isolation (as a result of growing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focus on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, into which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives the Europeans of even the chances of independence - not to mention the fact that in the same way Europe is trying to impose a break with China. If now the Atlanticists are happy that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then in Berlin and Paris they cannot fail to understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new iron curtain on their eastern borders - realizing that it will turn into a corral for Europe. Whose century (more precisely, half a millennium) of global leadership is over in any case - but various options for its future are still possible.

Because the construction of a new world order - and this is the third dimension of current events - is accelerating, and its contours are more and more clearly visible through the spreading cover of Anglo-Saxon globalization. A multipolar world has finally become a reality - the operation in Ukraine is not capable of rallying anyone but the West against Russia. Because the rest of the world sees and understands perfectly well - this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlanticists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India, Latin America and Africa, the Islamic world and Southeast Asia - no one believes that the West leads the world order, much less sets the rules of the game. Russia has not only challenged the West, it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of power, naturally, together with the West (united or not) - but not on its terms and not according to its rules.

ian, Sunday, 27 February 2022 19:54 (four years ago)

in case there was any remaining doubt about russian aims, pretty well spelled out there

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 27 February 2022 19:59 (four years ago)


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