ok what the fuck is happening in ukraine

calzino, clearly you are engaged and passionate about this but maybe attacking everyone for things they aren't actually stating isn't the best approach?

This thread is going into battle as the subject region is, which is weird.

Can we just stipulate that everyone here understands the US has invaded other countries on flimsy or fictitious pretexts and has a long sordid history of disseminating lies as propaganda? Having this well-known and accepted fact pointed out repeatedly just sounds like the usual 'whataboutism' in service to absolving Russia from its own misdeeds. OK?

I'd accept this if there wasn't any signs that the US plans to get involved in this conflict but since there is its track record is very much relevant. Also there's this tendency to handwave this history like "oh yeah they did that in the past but THIS TIME it's gonna be different" every time the US gets stuck into something.

go read a Applebum? calzino comin strong
go read a Applebum? i said calzino comin strong

this tendency to handwave this history like "oh yeah they did that in the past but THIS TIME it's gonna be different" every time the US gets stuck into something.

Who's doing that in this thread though?

Well Putin still painfully recalls the harsh, debilitating consequences of his last invasion of Ukraine, he knows he better play it cool or else

idk, the US seems quite distant from this at the moment. They’ve worsened their relationship with the Ukrainian government, don’t seem to be actively involved in negotiations (led by France and Germany), aren’t proposing any immediate sanctions, have given no indication that they’d help in the event of a war and don’t seem like they’re serious about Ukraine being part of NATO in the near future.

High-volume media rhetoric aside, it seems to be passing them by for the most part, at least for now.

Not sure if this is paywalled and it’s not particularly informative but it’s interesting to see France hinting vaguely again at some kind of new security mechanism that might include Russia, rather than be set up in opposition to it.

https://www.ft.com/content/49a53ff8-f154-4e1f-8141-ed6ee8b6d6cc

On a related note, this might be quite interesting but I’m not paying the RAND Corporation $22 for it.

https://www.rand.org/pubs/conf_proceedings/CF410.html

where the actual fuck do we get off thinking it’s our place to stop them?

Our judgment is clearly not to be trusted, and even if we’re in the “right” side, who can trust us to stop it? We haven’t won a single war in over 77 years. Please do fuck right off with pretending we’re the good, or in any possible way, the capable cops.

thank you for saying this more clearly than I was able to, yes this 100% this

Not gonna try to defend the world police.

Nobody is saying Putin is good, just that America is much worse

But not sure this is well defensible either. The man who was responsible for a ham-handed campaign of assassination and attempted assassination of political enemies outside his borders. Who directly stated he does not believe in the values of the enlightenment.

We tried to poison Castro with a cigar (and possibly with an exploding cigar), not sure attempted assassinations get more ham-handed.

assassination via poisoned or exploding appetilla

xp yeah, I kinda bit my tongue on that

to be fair, Russia has largely retreated from foreign, boots-on-the-ground adventures since the breakup, while America has not
But anything they still consider part of their tsarist birthright is fair game

Russia has largely retreated from foreign, boots-on-the-ground adventures since the breakup

largely doing a lot of work there when we're talking Ukraine.

Yeah, by 'foreign' I just meant non-ex-Soviet neighbors

I could see them invading Estonia in a heartbeat

they tried get Castro tripping on lsd as well, so he'd start talking about the benefits of free market capitalism or something. god knows!

Yes 60 years ago that happened. So the issue of enlightenment values is apparently a non-starter, I guess this has been trotted out here already just like the rest of it. If you can handwave away the suppression of the press and dissidents, the oppression of LGBTQ+ folks, the close ties between church and state, the secret police, then it is beside the point.

Now our ham-handed political assassinations are guys eating Subway clubs with one hand and piloting a drone with the other, true.

You seem to be taking a riff on "ham-handed assassinations" a bit seriously but, uh, the US isn't even remotely immune to the rest of what you say and you definitely don't need to look back 60 years for it. Looking for any kind of moral high ground in comparisons of the US and Russia is a pointless exercise.

(I would like to hear Biden or Trump talk about "Enlightenment values" at all though, it would be a hoot.)

I’m taking the unchallenged claim here that Putin is actually a preferable leader seriously. No the US is not “immune”, no country that I’m aware of is unless you want to point to some communist states outlawing religion.

Have you had encounters with the secret police where you live? Are you aware of ongoing and widespread suppression of free press? Of LGBTQ+ people? Granted these issues are mounting, and I don’t stan for Biden, but it’s pretty clear it’s the Republicans who are chiefly behind the push for surging authoritarianism. If they get their way I’ll acknowledge in a few decades we could be on a par with Russia. Really what I’m curious about are the core values here. Are you opposed to democracy? I’m genuinely asking.

I’m taking the unchallenged claim here that Putin is actually a preferable leader seriously.

Have you had encounters with the secret police where you live?

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/22/us/portland-protests-fbi-surveillance.html

Are you aware of ongoing and widespread suppression of free press?

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/ferguson-death-mystery-black-lives-matter-michael-brown-809407/

Of LGBTQ+ people?

but it’s pretty clear it’s the Republicans who are chiefly behind the push for surging authoritarianism

Really what I’m curious about are the core values here

this tendency to handwave this history

OK. Somebody tell me exactly how many and what references to USA's lies, broken promises, invasions, provocations and atrocities satisfies the requirement of NOT being "handwaving". Because every time I try to announce that WE ALL KNOW the US has done a VERY LONG LIST of VERY BAD THINGS it is treated like I should have mentioned EVERY FUCKING ONE OF THEM or I have not done an adequate job of acknowledging them.

So, just put the prepared confession in front of me and I'll sign it. Don't make me type out all fifty pages of it, cuz I refuse to do that much work. Sheesh.

STFU

fuck you, too. there you go, good job sleeve!

it's a legit response when you have nothing worthwhile to add

“Are you aware of ongoing and widespread suppression … of LGBTQ+ people?”

― recovering internet addict/shitposter (viborg), Thursday, February 17, 2022

I don't even know where to start on this one.

― papal hotwife (milo z), Thursday, February 17, 2022

really?

theres no chance

no chance at all now

that this not be a US politics thread?

any chance, folks, please?

lol

it's a legit response when you have nothing worthwhile to add

I will keep this in mind. Perhaps, though, if I were to apply this response rigorously according to this principle, you might find the results less than edifying. btw, STFU.

All this hot talk is making me want to play Twilight: 2000 so bad.

only another fifty CIA posts and we can get any mention of ukraine itt fully above the fold, come on, we can do it

OK here's some worthwhile content, do not read if you hate Jacobin

https://therealnews.com/a-ukrainian-sociologist-explains-why-everything-you-know-about-ukraine-is-probably-wrong

Ishchenko also did a piece for Al Jazeera last week:

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/2/16/ukraine-should-not-allow-others-to-determine-its-future

I’m taking the unchallenged claim here that Putin is actually a preferable leader seriously

Yeah, that's not how I interpreted calz's post at all - I'd rather live under Biden than Putin, but if you ask me which of those two countries has been worse, in terms of doing more damage to the world at large, it's the US (Russia def giving it a go tho!).

if you were skint and afflicted with a long term health condition you might be worse off living under Biden!

lets get this sorted

Ukraine question

, but if you ask me which of those two countries has been worse, in terms of doing more damage to the world at large, it's the US (Russia def giving it a go tho!).

so it's just a matter of capabilities?

wrong thread

Adding another layer of confusion (or obscurity?) to the situation is the take I've seen that "the west keeps repeatedly, preemptively burning intelligence to dox potential Russian pretexts for invasion before they could happen." That would be some next level juggling. Russia amasses (and is still amassing?) troops, intelligence indicates Russia may be trying to provoke invasion, west leaks intelligence that Russia may be trying to provoke invasion, some action may or may not have happened that may or may not accelerate aggression but people downplay it because the west has already sowed suspicion that said action could be a phony Russian pretext for aggression.

That seems to be part of the strategy. There is an interesting tension in some of the reporting between ‘aha, the US finally plays Russia at its own game of information warfare’ and ‘the information is all credible and legit’.

As the ridiculous analyst from the Atlantic Council who did the ‘Putin invades this weekend’ tweet that went viral belatedly points out though, this is not at zero cost to Ukraine. Hyperbole has a direct impact on their financial markets, foreign investment and the cost of insurance for air traffic, etc.

Releasing intelligence claims with no evidence behind them also runs the risk of Russia being able to keep up economic pressure on Ukraine by continually feeding duff information to the US to stoke further panic.

Sorry if this has already been posted.

Confirmation of sorts that the Biden White House is deliberately amplifying the slightest rumour about Ukraine until it becomes de facto ‘intelligence’. https://t.co/UOU5pKLQiz

— Elvis Buñuelo (@Mr_Considerate) February 18, 2022

That was interesting, thanks.

The next few days are, among other things, a test of whether disclosure can serve as a deterrent. Kendall-Taylor told me, “It kind of goes back to: What are our strengths in this domain?” If the authoritarian strength lies in misinformation, then maybe the way for a democracy to counter that is through transparency. On one level, it has been heartening to hear national-security officials describing the free press as a weapon against authoritarian misinformation; on another, it sent a slight shiver down my spine to hear a pillar of liberalism discussed as if it were a national-security asset, another quasi-military tool to be deployed. Kendall-Taylor said, “Exposure is part of the battle.”

can anyone tell me what this means for the mullingar town council byelection

Yes, Russia has been amassing troops on the border of Westmeath in an effort to pressure the election of a puppet council.

So, the usual.

yeah appreciate the update but its pretty much as-was alright

There's definitely a weird defensiveness about Russia on the left. Its weird because Russia's government, along almost every dimension, is further to the right than the US government these days.

what’s weird (but certainly not surprising) to me is that the US is willing to back literal neonazis in Ukraine just because they’re putatively anti-Russia

Russian media routinely portray Ukrainian nationalism as neo-Nazism in disguise. Thats one of the pretexts for Russian incursions.

For those who will read my tweet in bad faith, know I recognize there is a white nationalist presence here and they have caused problems, but Azov is brought up to paint Ukraine as a white nationalist haven.

As a Black man who lives here, I can tell you that is 100% FALSE.

— Terrell Jermaine Starr (@Russian_Starr) February 18, 2022