taking sides: single, childless men in their mid-thirties vs single, childless women in their mid-thirties

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wanting to have kids IS selfish. but selfishness needn't always be so negative.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:02 (eighteen years ago) link

No, I know that it doesn't.

But the only thing that pisses me off more than the BABYBABYBABY pressure is people trying to extrapolate their personal choices to the entire human race by saying things like "having children is selfish". It's reactionary and doesn't make either side any better.

x-x-post

― Bernard's Summer Girlfriend (kate), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:04 (eighteen years ago) link

it's of a piece (i presume) with the whole pressure to have long-term monogamous relationships, own property, etc etc. given the amount of misery caused by all these things that we know don't work (ie among 'our' parents' generation) why is there *still* this presha?

― Real Goths Don't Wear Black (Enrique), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:06 (eighteen years ago) link

everyone is accusing each other of being selfish, both those with children and those without children get that.
My best friend (male) wants lots, I (female) want none, I don't see the big deal ...
(my two other best friends want us to get together, but the child thing would create a big problem, because I am not even willing to have one or two, so even if everything else was right, it wouldn't work)

But yeah, what others said, men can produce children up to a much later age.
Maybe they cannot be a dad, but they can impregnate.

― clodia pulchra (emo by proxy), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:07 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh JBR I agree with you about how the modern tide makes you feel there is no place for you in society. I live in TX remember? but I think that's a larger political/religious tide that will recede. I'm convinced they are not the majority - just the loudest and most persistent of all the minorities.

― Miss Misery xox (MissMiseryTX), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:08 (eighteen years ago) link

But buying property IS as great as people say it is! It's even better! I wish I could take my flat and wheel it around in a baby buggie and get in people's way on busses and be all "LOOK AT MY PROPERTY, SUCKAS!!!"

― Bernard's Summer Girlfriend (kate), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:08 (eighteen years ago) link

What? I think you're projecting political agendas onto a very basic animalistic instinct for self propegation so deep it goes down to a genetic level. (Dawkins to thread, etc.)

just because you feel an instinct doesn't mean you have to act on it. on the other hand, there are some instincts/urges that DON'T fit into the so-called biological imperative, like homosexuality. and i don't really care about this imperative (the word gives me the creeps); i figure the world will go on turning even WITH a smattering of childless heathens and homos.

― the man from mars won't eat up bars where the tv's on (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:09 (eighteen years ago) link

Well, I wouldn't have any more. That's for sure.

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:09 (eighteen years ago) link

is people trying to extrapolate their personal choices to the entire human race by saying things like "having children is selfish".

i'm not suggesting that everybody is selfish, just that too many people are.

― the man from mars won't eat up bars where the tv's on (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:10 (eighteen years ago) link

clodia right tho. damned if you do, damned if you don't.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:12 (eighteen years ago) link

I understand your frustration with American "Family" Values (which are reactionary and toxic in and of themselves) but please do not conflate "Family" in that sense with family. I do see your other points. It's just kind of a "let there be chocolate and vanilla, depending on your personal choice".

(I am just touchy because this was not my personal choice. And I am full of cookie.)

― Bernard's Summer Girlfriend (kate), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:14 (eighteen years ago) link

Wanting a child may be selfish. But once you actually have one, you quickly learn to be unselfish and put the child's interests above your own.

― jz, Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:15 (eighteen years ago) link

regarding the question posed in the thread title, i'd say childless men have it easier because men get more leeway to be loners (and sociopaths, haha). women are considered "social creatures" -- being a loner just isn't the done thing.

― the man from mars won't eat up bars where the tv's on (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:16 (eighteen years ago) link

will we ever be free of these ties to the vast majorty of the rest of animal kingdom? should we be?

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:18 (eighteen years ago) link

I think people have been deliberately getting the wrong end of my stick re: benefits.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:18 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't really get this thing about wanting a child being selfish. To me, being selfish means wanting something for yourself even though it means others lose out. Who is losing out in this instance?

― indolent girl (indolent girl), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:32 (eighteen years ago) link

the children?

― Real Goths Don't Wear Black (Enrique), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:34 (eighteen years ago) link

The thousands of already-born children in need of a loving home?

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:39 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm so glad we put no thought whatsoever into having kids, it saved a lot of brain-ache.

― A Van That's Loaded With YSI? (noodle vague), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:40 (eighteen years ago) link

on the other hand, there are some instincts/urges that DON'T fit into the so-called biological imperative, like homosexuality.
Well there's a statement that isn't necessarly true....

Anyway, the desire to have children isn't selfish, it's a basic imperative. We evolved from creatures that wanted children, so of course we do too.

Those of us who don't want children aren't selfish either. Society will always need childless people to pay for the tax breaks of those of you who have bothered to reproduce...

― Stone Monkey (Stone Monkey), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:43 (eighteen years ago) link

(I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here a bit. I have no *desire* to give birth to a child. I'm not going to rush out and adopt a kid either. If I were to find myself pregnant, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. I'm only thinking about the issue right now because this thread is here.)

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:44 (eighteen years ago) link

To me, being selfish means wanting something for yourself even though it means others lose out. Who is losing out in this instance?

Why doesn't it just mean wanting something for yourself? Not that this is necess. a bad thing. But yeah not wanting kids could be seen as selfish too because either way it's a decision you're making to suit your own interests ahead of others (parents hopes/expectations etc.).

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:44 (eighteen years ago) link

Selfishness is surely the basic imperative! but whatevs.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:46 (eighteen years ago) link

Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live. Wilde

― M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:49 (eighteen years ago) link

i don't get all of this 'basic imperative' stuff.

― Real Goths Don't Wear Black (Enrique), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:49 (eighteen years ago) link

I do tend to think of selfishness as being a bad thing. Which is why I think it is different from just wanting something - which is natural for everyone. Say, if a child is at a birthday party and there is a big plate of cakes and the child takes one - that's not selfish as there are plenty to go round. But if there is one small cake and no one else has had any and the child grabs it - to me, that is selfish behaviour. Understandable, but still selfish! That's just the way I think of it though....

― indolent girl (indolent girl), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:51 (eighteen years ago) link

Like many words it's definition is flexible.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:53 (eighteen years ago) link

Cake-fed toddler is delicious, though, especially the free-range kind.

― M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 6 April 2006 14:56 (eighteen years ago) link

on the other hand, there are some instincts/urges that DON'T fit into the so-called biological imperative, like homosexuality.
Well there's a statement that isn't necessarly true....

it's why i said "so-called." i believe in biology (obv) but this notion of "imperatives," well, it's a slippery subject and it gets thrown around in politics a lot by people with dubious science backgrounds. if we're talking about nature taking its course, well that leaves wiggle room for, you know, evolution.

― the man from mars won't eat up bars where the tv's on (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:02 (eighteen years ago) link

Cake-fed toddler is delicious, though, especially the free-range kind

O don't, please!!! I've given them up for Lent.

― indolent girl (indolent girl), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:16 (eighteen years ago) link

Cake-fed toddler is delicious, though, especially the free-range kind.

You have to braise them just so, though.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:17 (eighteen years ago) link

You fiends!!

― indolent girl (indolent girl), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:19 (eighteen years ago) link

A Little Less Conversation, A Little More Action

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:20 (eighteen years ago) link

I say we all have sex with them

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:22 (eighteen years ago) link

You speak as one yourself.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:22 (eighteen years ago) link

(then again I don't know whether you refer to the entities in the thread title or the babies.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:23 (eighteen years ago) link

I certainly hope the former.

― Miss Misery xox (MissMiseryTX), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:24 (eighteen years ago) link

Children are dirty, dirty little beasts. I wouldn't wanna eat one.

― A Van That's Loaded With YSI? (noodle vague), Thursday, 6 April 2006 15:25 (eighteen years ago) link

i don't get all of this 'basic imperative' stuff.

It seems that people are equating "basic imperative" with "having children". This isn't true. Women with full-grown children don't drop dead after menopause.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

Specifically: the first section, which addresses evolution

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 6 April 2006 16:09 (eighteen years ago) link

Gee, thanks... now I've got a robo-electro version of "It's gay... to have a gay uncle!" going through my head.

― Bernard's Summer Girlfriend (kate), Thursday, 6 April 2006 16:12 (eighteen years ago) link

It's amazing how any slight deviation into actual science kills threads dead on ILE.

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Friday, 7 April 2006 00:36 (eighteen years ago) link

as proven by science, etc

― electric sound of jim (and why not) (electricsound), Friday, 7 April 2006 00:38 (eighteen years ago) link

I am still smarting from Kate confirming my long-held belief that women of my generation hate men, and therefore I have no children. (Which, ironically enough, my ex's mother told me is the reason I was selfish.) I didn't have the heart to tell her that her daughter had already had four abortions, as best I knew.

― someone let this mitya out! (mitya), Friday, 7 April 2006 00:57 (eighteen years ago) link

confusing!

― gem (trisk), Friday, 7 April 2006 01:09 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah, well, i noticed the thread only long after it went round the bend.

― someone let this mitya out! (mitya), Friday, 7 April 2006 01:10 (eighteen years ago) link

I used to think it would be best to adopt children because of the general 'too many kids and not enough people taking care of them' problem, but I have come round to the idea of having my own. This is because I think my family; my parents, grandparents, cousins, brothers and sisters have many stirling qualities. Some are probably from the way they were bought up, some could be from the genes we share, and I would want to pass that on. I feel almost an obligation now the older generation are starting to die.
However since I have a student loan, no house, a fulltime job I enjoy and noone who wants to play the father role, I am not too fussed on the idea.

― isadora (isadora), Friday, 7 April 2006 01:17 (eighteen years ago) link

i don't think about the childless thing overly much of late, even though i am single and will be entering my 30s this year. maybe that's the solution? don't think? or it might be because the main source of pressure for me to have kids is my family who, being conservative rural folk think i'm completely on the shelf... but my younger brother and his wife are spawning in june so thefamily are all focused on that now. thanks bro!

― gem (trisk), Friday, 7 April 2006 01:24 (eighteen years ago) link

one thing i have certainly noticed as an early thirtysomething male that making it clear you don't want children is a great way of reducing one's potential pool of partners to near zero.

of course the right person could well change my mind (eg i would have more than gladly had children with my recent ex but nobody else i've ever dated)

― electric sound of jim (and why not) (electricsound), Friday, 7 April 2006 01:35 (eighteen years ago) link

it's a bit of a tricky issue i reckon. one of the reasons my last long term relationship broke up (when i was 25) was that i didn't want to have children for quite a while. now i'm not sure if i want them at all, certainly not till at least 35 - but i admit i do sometimes worry that anyone i date in the next while is going to wonder what i think about it, and might be put off by my age, thinking i'm out daddy-shopping, when i'm completely not. bah.

― gem (trisk), Friday, 7 April 2006 01:47 (eighteen years ago) link

I've said this on ILX many times but like Ailsa I dont want kids. And it isnt because of career or men hating or anything silly like that - I just dont want kids.

I am baffled that there are people who don't understand or believe the concept that some women are actually NOT AT ALL MATERNAL. It is possible you know.

― Trayce is not a guy! (trayce), Friday, 7 April 2006 01:53 (eighteen years ago) link

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