boundaries

this was my response to the two clients that emailed me today! thank you ILX

i have gotten really good at establishing work boundaries even though i work in one of the most boundariless industries of all time, i’m lucky in that my attitude is reflected by my boss, who also doesn’t want me to think about work at all when i’m not working. but i’m also very lazy and a great way for me to feel miserable is to feel like my job is taking up too much of my time and attention, and jobs that have forced me into this position have been short-lived. moreover we must embrace the four-hour workday, etc.

boundaries with family are a lot more fluid which can suck, but again, i’m very lucky, no one i regularly talk to (mom, dad, stepdad) is much of a boundary overstepper. i can’t remember the last time i had a friend who did either. maybe i have good boundaries, i’m just unconscious of them most of the time??? i also think some of my boundaries are trauma-produced, like the moment i feel like a relationship is getting anywhere close to passive aggression or shame-based verbal abuse i’m just out, goodbye

i suck very bad at communication and i’m very conflict-avoidant though

i have gotten really good at establishing work boundaries even though i work in one of the most boundariless industries of all time

part of me wants to collectively determine which the most boundariless industries are, but the better me feels like that would lead to harmful conflicts.

tbf every industry i can think of has godawful work/life boundaries lol

^^^^^^^

A few years before my dad died I was visiting with my daughter - she was always feisty and headstrong and sometimes difficult to deal with but I'm allowed to say that, it was clear my dad had a huge problem with her and a lot of that problem was because she wasn't behaving like he thought a girl should. Dick. And something happened and he lost his rag and started having a go at her and when I told him to mind his business he actually fronted up to me, right up to my face and it was funny and heartbreaking and enraging in equal measure

And I walked out of there and we got the next train home and I would have never spoken to the cunt again and after a fortnight he had to swallow his pride and call me and apologise - probably at my mom's prodding - and I never had that kinda trouble off him again, hooray for setting a boundary

i think about my first ltr sometimes and how it ended in a painful way because i was just never able to straight up say "we aren't having sex as often as i would like" and proceed from there.

xp i feel like "do goodism" is a cover for boundary problems in the workplace. non profits, small businesses seem like a haven for them ime.

xxp yeah the real answer is "work, period"

God yeah non profits I've known encourage some absolutely terrible abuse of work/life balance

why i will never be in a "helping" role ever again. the only way i could establish effective boundaries was to quit.

hooray for setting a boundary

Yeah Han is not at all cuddly and it took me a while I guess to figure that out. Having said that she will still encourage me to scratch her feet if we're hanging at home

Oops boundaries soz

I built such an impenetrable boundary between me and my biological dad that I wouldn't even visit him when he was dying of throat cancer because fuck it lol I was watching a 2nd leg playoff game in the pub. My mum didn't put any pressure on me to visit him but did suggest I might regret it when he's gone, but I didn't. I don't know if this is an interpretation of boundaries in the spirit of this thread, but sometimes I believe they are often a healthy way of avoiding unnecessary conflict and unhappiness because there is already plenty enough of that shit to go around.

at my old job I would have to deal with kids a lot. One of my methods for building rapport and trust before what can seem scary to kids is to offer a high-five, and ask some questions about school or anything they had with them eg what games were they playing on the DS. But any kid has the right to say "I don't want a high-five" or not answer questions from a stranger, and that's fine, it doesn't bother me: ultimately my goal was to make the experience easy and pleasant for the kid where possible.

The amount of parents and grandparents who would chastise their kids for not wanting to do a high-five was unreal. I would instantly say "it's up to them, I don't mind!" and yet they would insist. I can't play along with that because it's not fair to anyone. The way we teach kids about consent and permission can be so unreal - you must go high-five the stranger in the shop, or hug your smelly uncle, or play with the neighbourhood kid who pulls your hair... and then we wonder why people struggle to say No at the moment necessary.

Huge otm

Shit dads can fuck off, even if they're dead. And in my experience you don't regret putting that boundary in place (in my situation I am glad I met up with him once before he died but also glad I didn't try to do so more frequently, fuck that noise). Solidarity to everyone in the shit dead dad crew.

tbf every industry i can think of has godawful work/life boundaries lol

― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Wednesday, December 29, 2021 11:23 AM (twenty-three minutes ago)

this is apparently one of the appealing factors of civil service for some people. There are plenty of people employed in bureaucratic government jobs that show up, punch the clock, do their tasks, get a generous amount of flex time and paid time off, and leave on time. for a while when I was growing up, my mom was a mail carrier. She went in, sorted the mail, put it in her vehicle, delivered the mail, dropped off the undeliverables at the post office, went home. People on her mail route did not call her at home. Her supervisor didn't call her on her days off.

I mean ffs the unspoken belief in children as property without agency is still so widespread

xp to boxedjoy absolutely! that was part of the conversation with a childcare worker friend i was having the other day. he was telling me that he thought the reason why so many kids are poorly behaved little shits is that their parents treat them as these accessories who are forced to play a role, rather than human beings with agency that needs to be respected. and they act it out all the time.

Can confirm a good civil service job is sweeet

also certain trades ... like this one contractor my org works with, Tony the plumber ... Tony isn't going to show up whenever we want him to. Tony is going to work during Tony's schedule, and will pass on jobs that he doesn't want to do. While he gets paid to deal with literal shit, Tony seems to have a pleasant work/life balance.

yup, much improved mental health in a bureaucratic job

i'm still mad at my parents for making me hug relatives i didn't care about

I realized after posting that I have much more complicated thoughts about my own relationship with boundaries than I relayed in my post. I withheld them bc…lol boundaries. It’s a fraught topic for me and has been as long as I can remember. I’m not ready to get into it publicly so I shouldn’t have posted.
I’m still mad at my parents too fwiw.

I mean ffs the unspoken belief in children as property without agency is still so widespread

I would prefer to live in a world where my neighbour having children didn't impact on me. But i think that is true with a lot of things.
LIke also seating arrangements on buses back from airports where a family freaks out because i don't like their kid continually kicking the seat I'm in which i picked because i had more legroom since the emergency exit was in front of it.
Or the idiots pushing prams and pushchairs around teh park here . One path that's like 2metres wide or something . So there is space for 2 people to walk by in different directions when necessary. & then I get a bunch of women with prams taking up one sid eof teh path and one idiot walking down the other side. I'm now wondering how total;ly racist taht idea was. like any black person walking in their direction needed to be dealt with instead of them recognising other people use the park.
Or a couple of days ago a father pushing a kid on a wheeled something, possibly horse . he's looking at a football match going on on the park the path's next to and not watching where he's pushing things so the wheeled thing veers right across teh path. I stop way before him because i can see taht he's doing that. I say Excuse me and he doesn't even seem to cop on. NOt sure if taht was the distance or just ignorance. I had stopped way before him because i saw what he was doing. But really one path so should be watching what he's doing. Not my kid and it is my legs that they would have been shoved into.
Ex-gf has a major issue with people not watching where they're going because looking at phones which I definitely share. BUt she makes a vocal thing of it when we're walking around together.

Very badly designed layout of this building. 2 apartments on the top of 4 flights of stairs. The other door is right at the top of the stairs . Ignorant shits who live there decided when they move din taht the bin arrangements didn't suit them so they would just dump rubbish outside their door which I had to walk over. PLus the guy there started leaving his bike on a narrow landing that one really needed all of to navigate.
THis is the same pair who continually leave the street door unlocked despite the landlord having told them not to. & the wife there who i serioulsy wonder what the deal is with and after reading Caste wonder if that is the issue. But I'm not lower caste tahn a delusional idiot who likes to throw lit cigarettes at people or is stupid enough to go out without a key then blame the othe rperson living there if she can't get back into the building. Got this revolting note from this headcase 5 years ago askjing if i was mad cos she had to go to th etrouble of getting her husband from work. I mean I wonder what the story is on boundaries there. like white polish headcase views hers to be sacred and mine to be non existent.
& then earlier thsi year she decidees I'm not allowed to have a paper delivered for some reason. I had had the thing delivered for years before tehy arrived. & she just decides taht if i didn't go down until it suited me to do so it was up to her to dispose of the thing.
Also she messed around with my mail for no good reason , brought a letter addressed to me up and tehn didn't think it suite dher to take it back down and put it back where she got it froml. I found it propped up againsta back wall on the ground floor after it had floated back down there. Annoying?
& then she called teh police on me twice for no good reason once because I was annoyed she was gaslighting me over the thing with the paper. After which I get attacked buy the husband. Standing outside my door threatening me which I should have told the police when tehy arrived.
Instead of which I had to put up with hi eavesdropping as i talked to teh police and getting annoyed taht I pointed out I was the victim. Oh & during which he started going on about me crossing a line, like he had any recognition of line. I just think racist idiot.

Further to that i suspect they are anti vaxxers and she has insisted on standing at the top of teh stairs smoking throughout the pandemic. has absolutely no idea of social distancing which is impossible if she is standing there. hate that i think it's a common thing, an idiot standing at the bottleneck point of a path or corridor or whatever so it is impossible to keep any distance from them. I guess the main thrust of the thing is more about keeping that distance for any length of time but still seems so totally ignorant to do so.

& this idiot woman is working behind the food counter of teh locaol convenience store. Do hope that does mean she was forced to get a jab but really since she does seem to be one of the bolshier idiots I've ever met I do wonder.

2022 resolution to not beef except with alphie

fin

― imago, Wednesday, 29 December 2021 bookmarkflaglink

You will break this because you are a dick.

Navigating boundaries with some couples can be tricky. In my family I have a sister who I feel I used to know, but now talks in terms of 'we like this/we believe/we hate x, we're doing x' to such an extent that I don't feel I even know her. Every text or message from her feels like a press statement issued on behalf of her and her husband.

Having a conversation or getting her genuine views seems impossible.

during a family dinner outing my older brother casually mentioned he was thinking about buying a motorcycle. my mom gasped 'but i'd be so worried about you!'. my brother calmly turned towards her and said 'i'm trying to think of a nice way to say that is not my problem.'. i learned a lot right then and it helped steer the next few years of my life

sorry misedited the first text I sent today.
My problem with teh women with prams was, 1 pram takes up half teh path. There were like 3 prams in a row and one of their group was pushing a pram down the other side of the same path = entire path space taken up by the one group of people with nowhere to walk for anybody else without them walking on muddy grass. & it seemed intentional. Which is like mindless.
Path is there for all of public. I've also been in this area longer tahn a lot of people. I remember that park as wasteland which it was for the first couple of years i was living here.

JUst like bums me out like.

& i do reada lot of books like caste and see my past experiences reflected in ways i probably should have seen at the time. Not just thought this is a bit unjust, how pushy. Or maybe taht is what you do wind up with anyway. Unless you can get some leverage in teh moment to stop it happening or find a way to find it less annoying . & i think you just wind up thinkingthat privileged people are scum anyway unless they actively work against taking as much advantage of it or at least spread the leverage around to those marginalised etc

i can see what gyac means about the dog thing lol

but the conflict avoidant thing can be rough to deal with as someone who is instinctively more of a "let's just get everything out in the open and resolve things with goodwill and respect" person. ... like the thing where some people will tell "you" that they are not upset or that your behavior is "fine" and then flash forward to months or years later and it turns out they were upset! It wasn't fine! And then the "moat of alligators" seems like a very reasonable approach tbh.

I feel like a lot of relationship problems (including romantic, family, friends, professional) are based on differences regarding approaches to conflict. Then throw in unequal power dynamics, and things can be super toxic (especially for the person/people who are already less powerful due to gender, age, race, etc.). Yeah, this is somewhat contradictory to the first paragraph I wrote. There is definitely a tendency for people who are the "less powerful" ones or even just had formative experiences as a child with a parent where they were "less powerful" ... for people to be conflict avoidant and not communicate that they do/did feel harmed by another's behavior.

Conflict avoidance is a bear to surmount when you're raised in an environment filled to the brim with toxic conflict and you subsequently come to assess all conflict as toxic. And even fully understanding that that's a fucked perspective doesn't instantly unfuck the wiring. It's apparently just a lifelong process of unfucking. I mean, hats off to anyone who has it licked but I for one still have a long row to hoe.

my brother calmly turned towards her and said 'i'm trying to think of a nice way to say that is not my problem.'

That's brilliant. I've tried to express similar in the past, but it came out much much less graciously.

Like, worrying over does not equal caring about someone. Makes me think of the bit in "Hamlet 2" where the one girl learns of something bad happening to someone and her immediate reaction is "why is this happening to me???"

A fantastic line, genuinely think of it all the time

That's brilliant. I've tried to express similar in the past, but it came out much much less graciously.

i think he was only able to utter it thanks to therapy, but it's been very instructive esp when it comes to dealing with my very well meaning and frankly sweet + nice parents. but you still have to, not TELL them, but *suggest* they fuck off now and then. it's a good ability. plus 150 XP any time you scorn your aging parents

I wish I'd had that line to hand 30 years ago

a friend today told me they can't use their laundry machine cos she is in a unit next to the main unit, and the main unit is occupied by someone who tested positive for COVID.

she needed to do it this afternoon before her shift. I suggested a laundromat and she got snippy and said "why are you telling me to go to a laundromat? why aren't you letting me wash clothes at your place?"

uh, because my mother is in the midst of a huge load of laundry that won't be done for hours. otherwise I would have.

I offer to help all of the time, this particular time it wasn't really convenient, mom would have to take out scores of wet clothes and wait hours to dry them.

Have you learned something from not making other people’s problem your problem from this incident?

is this friend someone who you are currently having sex with or would like to have sex with if living situations were different?

Sorry if that question is crass, but it is a factor in setting/maintaining boundaries imo and lol ime

I suggested a laundromat and she got snippy and said "why are you telling me to go to a laundromat? why aren't you letting me wash clothes at your place?"

Not sure this is a boundary issue as much as poor communication. She’d have done better to ask directly on the first place rather than hinting. And the answer sounds a bit brusque.

But it’s urgent and key that we know the details of the sexual relationship status ( and intentions )of all your friends and acquaintances.

xp she sounds like a dose tbqh, someone getting brusque over your own needs coming first like that = their problem, not yours

gyac otm

Seconded. Feel like the thread should be called Boundaries: Why are they so bad and hated difficult?

The thread title is fine, you can discuss your inability to keep boundaries, everyone has had this difficulty at some point usually.

It's a work in progress.

I divide all my friends into “would smash” and “uggo” so I can set the proper boundaries. Simple as.

Unfortunately, the last time I was comfortable and confident, my husband lost his Medicaid because of my procrastination, I lost the chance to negotiate the bill for my ER stay before it went into collections because of my procrastination, my van almost broke down because I didn't check the fluids for a while, and the garbage in the can had to be divided into two bags in order to be carried down to the dumpster. I wish I could be both happy and capable of taking care of myself at the same time, but it doesn't seem like it's going to happen in this lifetime.

I have no problem with telling people no, in fact, I think I tell people no too often for my own good. Having people respect my boundaries doesn't make me feel any less nervous about dealing with people, and it gives folx a vulnerability that they can use against me. I also am really not the best judge for knowing what is the best for me.

― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo

that's really super relatable. i have that problem a lot too. i'm really defensive and i say "no" a lot. i also have a hard time trusting my own judgement. i know in theory that i am the best judge of what's best for me, that nobody can know what's best for me better than i can, but i'm not always right. i make mistakes sometimes. and i worry about facing disproportionate consequences for those mistakes. idk if that's anything like what you experience, but that's what i'm going through right now.

What I'm saying is that I become slipshod and thoughtless when I'm confident with myself.

Unfortunately, the last time I was comfortable and confident, my husband lost his Medicaid because of my procrastination, I lost the chance to negotiate the bill for my ER stay before it went into collections because of my procrastination, my van almost broke down because I didn't check the fluids for a while, and the garbage in the can had to be divided into two bags in order to be carried down to the dumpster. I wish I could be both happy and capable of taking care of myself at the same time, but it doesn't seem like it's going to happen in this lifetime.

― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo

FUCK yes it's those fucking hard compromises, it's doing everything one can and it still winding up not being good enough. this past week, i got a lien on my car and it's going to auction because i was too stressed to figure out how to take care of it. i haven't been able to figure out how to get tested for colon cancer and i wound up so worried about bleeding that i wound up in the ER Friday evening because I was afraid I had serious health issues. (It was just a severe panic attack). my eggs keep going bad in the fridge because i don't have the energy to cook with them. i feel socially isolated because i didn't get around to making social plans with anyone this week. my boss keeps threatening to write me up because i'm not meeting my goals. it just seems like it never stops.

and i know intellectually it's not because i was confident in myself, it's because a lot of times we have unreasonable expectations placed on us, and we get blamed for not meeting those unreasonable expectations. because sometimes a person is expected to do everything by oneself without ever needing help, and if a person can't do that they get treated as a failure. i got told, you know, when i do all my work, _then_ i can relax and enjoy myself, but i never actually get everything done. there's always something else. usually too many other things to count.

i don't know your situation, but from what you say, it sounds like you are also being held to unreasonable expectations. it's hard to feel good, to feel happy, to feel comfortable and confident, when it seems like something's always on fire, and it always seems like there's something else one could have done, an easier way. and i don't. i don't feel comfortable or confident. i don't feel happy. i'm doing my best, though. i know there's nothing wrong with me. i get the impression you're doing your best too, and that there's nothing wrong with you, either. it really doesn't seem to me like you being confident is causing all of the bad things to happen.

One reason why I cannot stand people intermingling their checks at bars/restaurants w mine....

Got asked by a friend if I could spot them a few drinks today until they got paid. Said "sure". Then they went inside, ordered a $20 meal, put it on my tab, then told me "I thought you were covering me today" when I asked if they were gonna pay me.

I've been paying for all of my mom's expenses for weeks because she ran out of money earlier than planned...so it's not like I'm cheap, but taking advantage of me using my card for our tab and going beyond what I agreed to and intentionally violating a boundary just makes me feel so disrespected and I really just did not have the energy to have to call them out like I had to today.

Yeah that’s incredibly selfish of them. You are in the right.

We just got in a fun little fight over it. Yay merry Christmas

I'm probably going to have a fatal heart attack before I turn 50 at this point

Neando you recognize that financial abuse is real right?

That’s not me being flippant — I genuinely see the way your mother (and occasional friend) treats you and it’s abusive.

need to drop or greatly minimize going out to social events if those kind of friends/acquaintances are taking advantage of you. obviously harder with family members. like - there's certain social behavior i'll brush aside when you're still relatively young. but if you're pushing 35 plus and taking advantage of people in those kind of situations i'm sorry but i don't have time for that anymore.

Not flippant at all, LL, you're correct.

As we get close to when this lease expires and I'm not inextricably linked with mom anymore, I'm going to suggest she find a friend who is willing to take her in rent free...or close. And I will move on to my own place.

Regarding social activities, I had become a bit of a hermit outside of concerts, but this last two weeks wound up with an unusual amount of social commitments and it's on me that I didn't say no to more of them.

I just don't stick up for myself well because I don't respect myself.

I'm ok now tonight after I had my mini meltdown but I gotta get back to therapy in Jan

you're a confident poster Neanderthal! (much more confident than I am), and I think you do respect yourself. I like your very big sense of empathy

Wish you the best in the new year and beyond. Everyone deserves better than what you’re describing.

Neando, you might benefit to have some go-to phrases handy to decline if someone asks you to spot them some cash or something - “money’s been tight this week” “waiting for a paycheck to clear,” etc. A way to avoid the unpleasantness of what you describe. Or even to do a non-monetary favor. “Would love to give you a ride, but Ive been having a rough week/feeling stressed lately and I’m trying to lay low at the moment.” Having a sense of you as a highly scrupulous person who holds yourself to high standards, I can relate to the idea that you want to be as giving as you can be, and honest, and that you might be hard on yourself to hold back or deploy white lies. But there is nothing to feel guilty about for protecting your own hard-earned time, money, or energy to allocate to your own needs

It sounds like the thing with your friend (unless they have a habit of this behavior) made you flip out mostly because of what’s going on with your mom. Like, my instinct was you were hoping this hangout with your friend would make you feel better and less hermitty and distract you from the frustrations you are experiencing with your mom and your job. … But then your friend does something that triggers the shit you were trying to escape by hanging out with them.

Idk a significant part of friendship is trust and goodwill… which is a two-sided thing. Like I don’t see your friend’s behavior as inherently shitty (based on what you’ve said)… but the context of what you have been dealing with made it shitty.

My advice is not to isolate from your friends because of this one thing.

This is really good advice. I got a friend who's dealing with the fallout from her parents' financial abuse and it's not pretty. Most people in this world aren't going to treat you like your mom does. (That one's from Kate's list of "advice I regularly give other people that I should really consider taking myself".)

yeah we're still ok the friend and I, she actually said "I feel like you're reacting to something more than just me here", which was true. we wound up having a much better evening after that lil emotional bloodletting